Hi, Restarting this topic as it got lost in a couple of other "group" threads (ASM and Sys80). Attached picture are the replies received.

I purchased an Amazing Spiderman (Gottlieb series 80 not Stern) in early 2000's, and it's been my only pin for about 16 years. Recently I purchased my second pinball machine (Bally Paragon), and realized that my Spiderman flippers are really not that strong compared to the Paragon. My project for 2018 will be to try to get some better flipper action out of my Spidey. So... wanted to provide a bit of what I've looked at already and ask a few questions on the best place to start.

A) Voltages to the coils look good, and don't seem to drop off much when the flippers are activated.
B) All of them seem to be similar strength... none really stronger or weaker than the others... just all more sluggish than the Bally
C) EOS switches appear to be working correctly (leaf switch sparking so they're disengaging... which means they also engaging)
D) I've used jumpers to bypass the EOS switch in case they are disengaging too soon, and that doesn't seem to make the flippers any stronger
E) Some looseness in the mechanicals, which posts indicate can cause flipper power loss.
F) I'm assuming that everything is original parts (1980ish), but even if reworked before I bought it, everything is at least 20 years old

Questions
1) Are Gottlieb flippers, in general, not as strong as Bally's?
2) Although voltages seem good, is there anything that could be limiting power to the coils?
3) Lots of postings about rebuilding the flippers... relatively cheap investment... is that the best place to start?
4) Several posting about coils themselves not really getting any weaker over time.. is that correct? If not, would it typically be just one flipper coil "going bad" or would they all sort of get weaker over time. My Bally had some old coils in the cabinet, so I assume they were replaced... should I replace flipper coils if they're not obviously dead; or not?
5) Anything simple and obvious I should check that I haven't already? Experiments I can try?
6) What sequence of "improvements" would you recommend?
7) point me to prior postings or sites if this has all been covered lotsa times!!

Thanks!

Stephen

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Update....

I found that cleaning the Tilt and End of Game switch contacts improved power a little bit. I can always still make a shot to the top of the playfield, but the flippers don't kick butt or nothing. Game is still playable and fun, but I really think I could be getting more power from the flippers.

So I went ahead and purchased some flipper rebuild kits through a local pinball repair guy that deals a lot with Steve Young's. Saved me a lot of headaches setting up my own account (Thanks Mike at Pinball Medics in Ottawa!).

I reworked one of my flippers last night, and was a bit disappointed to find that there was not really any improvement.

After checking and adjusting the EOS switch, I tried the the flipper with the EOS held open and found that the flipper barely moved at all. I did the same on the other three flippers (opened the EOS switch), and same thing... the flippers hardly move. Late last night so packed it in.

In play mode, the flippers will hold the ball. I've read in Vids postings and others that if the EOS switch is dirty or stuck open that the flipper will be "weak".... but these are not moving the flippers at all. Is that expected, or should I still get weak flipper movement? Although it's a weaker coil I also expect it would contribute to the initial power stroke as well, so if they aren't working I may be losing a bit of flipper strength.

From Vid's postings and others, I believe the coils and EOS's are wired correctly (thick wires versus thin wires, power, ground, EOS connections)... is it possible to wire them incorrectly that Hold coils don't work?

Since this is affecting ALL flippers, I'm considering what's common to all of them... not a lot... power and a couple relays before the flipper switches. If not enough power is getting to the Hold coils, then I assume the power to the Power Coils is also lower than it should be. So reaching out for additional direction.

My next steps:
1) repeat my test from last night and confirm that open EOS switches affect each flipper the same way.
2) Check voltage levels again. Check voltage drop when a flipper is engaged.
3) Bypass the Tilt and End of Game relays completely to see if more power gets through
4) remove fused circuitry from 24V DC lines and see if that changes anything
5) check diodes across coils on 24V DC lines
5) Check if anything else on the 24V DC lines could be pulling down the voltage
6) Reflow / resolder connections along the 24V AC and DC paths

Questions:
1) Is there anything else common to all 4 flippers that I'm not thinking of?
2) What voltage drop, if any, is expected when a flipper is engaged?
3) Should the Hold coils be strong enough to activate the flipper?
4) Does the power of the Hold coils contribute to the initial stroke, or does the Power Coil really provide all the strength and the hold coil won't really add much?
5) Is there some way that the Hold coils could all be affected, but not the Power Coils? Doesn't seem possible to me... if Hold coils are affected then likely the Power coils are as well
6) Can the flipper coil be wired incorrectly to mess up hold coil strength... unlikely, unless all 4 flippers were connected incorrectly at some point.
7) Any other components on the 24V line that could typically drag down power?
8 ) Any other suggestions to investigate, clean or replace anything?

Thanks!

Stephen

Noticed (sheer luck) that when the flipper was engaging I had some arcing on the tilt relay lead switch. Tightened that up but will clean again as well.

Checking resistances ...

Found lug connectors on the flipper button switches (photo) Resistance is a little higher across the lugs than when I check directly across the leaves. I'm going to remove the lugs and solder directly. Are the lugs typical factory install, or likely added by original owner (arcade) to simplify changing out the flipper button switches?

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Removed slotted lugs on flipper buttons and soldered directly to leads.

Finished doing all of my flipper rebuilds. Everything works fine and nice to see all the parts clean and new but still nothing exceptionally different in terms of power. Plays fine and I can always get back up to the top.

Will continue to check resistances and other possible power loss sources.

In a separate post under the sys80 forum I've asked if anyone has tried adding a large cap to the 24v DC line like the ones in the 12v line to provide more instantaneous current when engaged... thoughts? If you did, how big a capacitor did you need to make a difference?