Moreno Valley, CA
I hope the videos with the horrific noise stay in this thread for posterity. I can come back here and play them with my headphones on whenever something is really annoying me and I won't feel so bad. 
(Topic ID: 297299)
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Volcano
Gottlieb, 1981
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Quoted from Robotworkshop:Just to add that my Volcano also does the odd groan on power down. I don’t believe there is any issue with that but I have never heard it on power up.
FWIW, mine groaned, hissed, bweeeeeeeed, whooshed, and burped on shut-down occasionally, right up until I replaced U10.
I must have cycled power a hundred times over the last couple of days and not one tone on power-up or shut-down since the last part was replaced. In my opinion, this demonstrates that these errant tones on power cycling are not part of proper operation as designed.
I believe both the power-up and shut-down groans are both caused by tired chips and spikes. Just tired, not defective, as the sound & speech board worked perfectly fine during normal game operation. Prime example: U25 when replaced with a couple good-testing NOS 7404 chips, A6 board would not boot at all (no sound/speech) about half the time, and when it did boot, it was perfectly fine during normal game operation. The age/condition of these particular chips seem to be most critical and apparent during power cycling, not game play.
Quoted from frenchmarky:I hope the videos with the horrific noise stay in this thread for posterity. I can come back here and play them with my headphones on whenever something is really annoying me and I won't feel so bad.
I plan on leaving them up. 
Still holding good!
Attract mode set to 10 seconds. Video shows me turning it on/off several times without any weird sounds on power-up or shut-down. I even shut it down a couple times during sound play. (I have my doors/windows open so you can hear the wind/trees and traffic noise in the background... there is no hiss, just windy outside.)
Given the history, I am still going to wait a few more days before declaring victory.
The attract timing settings on these boards in home use is like the Three Little Bears, every 4 min is a little too long, 10 seconds is way too short and 2 min is just right. 10 seconds quickly drove me insane.
Quoted from frenchmarky:The attract timing settings on these boards in home use is like the Three Little Bears, every 4 min is a little too long, 10 seconds is way too short and 2 min is just right. 10 seconds quickly drove me insane.
Totally agree.
I normally have mine at 2 minutes, but found that 10 secs is great for testing, as the sound starts 10 secs after power-up, which is 5 seconds after the MPU boots.
Quoted from frenchmarky:The attract timing settings on these boards in home use is like the Three Little Bears, every 4 min is a little too long, 10 seconds is way too short and 2 min is just right. 10 seconds quickly drove me insane.
Former has my Black Hole set to 10 seconds, maddening. Have not had the few minutes free to pull pin out and set to something more reasonable.
I had it 10 seconds. It stayed that way because I did not want to move the game out to get into the head.
The other day the 5101 puked.
I was in there and changed it to 4 minutes. Tested it before removing the MPU.
It was driving me crazy at 10 seconds.
Quoted from gdonovan:... Did caps on sound board, zero change.
No surprise there. Caps are cheap and it never hurts to replace them, but capacitors are not a magic bullet. Sometimes focusing on them too much sidesteps real issues and more serious troubleshooting.
When does the issue happen for you?
Quoted from sparky672:No surprise there. Caps are cheap and it never hurts to replace them, but capacitors are not a magic bullet. Sometimes focusing on them too much sidesteps real issues and more serious troubleshooting.
When does the issue happen for you?
Anytime speech is present. Sometimes normal, other times very glitchy sounding.
Quoted from gdonovan:Anytime speech is present. Sometimes normal, other times very glitchy sounding.
Put a logic probe on pin 7 of SC-01 while speech is happening. Signal should stay low and each phoneme will be seen as a brief pulse. For my issue, I could see extra pulses when I clicked the power switch. Maybe you will see your audio glitches as extra pulses?
Quoted from sparky672:Put a logic probe on pin 7 of SC-01 while speech is happening. Signal should stay low and each phoneme will be seen as a brief pulse. For my issue, I could see extra pulses when I clicked the power switch. Maybe you will see your audio glitches as extra pulses?
I did a quick check this morning: Speech is always happening but glitchy/stuttering or very fast, never slow. Tried adjusting the pitch to "clean the contacts" but had no meaningful change in regards to the problem.
Quoted from gdonovan:I did a quick check this morning: Speech is always happening but glitchy/stuttering or very fast, never slow. Tried adjusting the pitch to "clean the contacts" but had no meaningful change in regards to the problem.
If the pitch is fast, maybe the frequency pot on the speech circuit has completely failed or flaking out? Pull the board and measure resistance while turning the pot.
Quoted from sparky672:If the pitch is fast, maybe the frequency pot on the speech circuit has completely failed or flaking out? Pull the board and measure resistance while turning the pot.
I'll check, but running adjustment back and forth changed nothing.
Quoted from gdonovan:I'll check, but running adjustment back and forth changed nothing.
The pot number depends on the version of the A6 board. If it's v3 like mine, then for adjusting speech frequency, it would be pot R6 (10 kΩ). If turning R6 has no effect on pitch or speed of speech, then this pot would likely be bad.
My BH's speech vol pot didn't just fail - I broke it open and the resistive trace had *completely* dissolved away except for the ends. The freq pot likely wouldn't fail that catastrophically since it doesn't have nearly that much juice going thru it, but of course it could still fail or be dirty or have a bad solder joint.
Quoted from frenchmarky:My BH's speech vol pot didn't just fail - I broke it open and the resistive trace had *completely* dissolved away except for the ends. The freq pot likely wouldn't fail that catastrophically since it doesn't have nearly that much juice going thru it, but of course it could still fail or be dirty or have a bad solder joint.
I'm going to make a video and upload to youtube, just busy on a lot of other things and little time to to devote to BH right now.
The problem will also change minute to minute without even touching the machine. One second it will sound almost normal, the next gibberish. I'm thinking it's in the SC-01 circuit as the regular sound effects are fine so that does narrow it down a bit.
And that pot may be a multiple-turns type, like 10 turns each way, something to consider when doing the turning-it-back-and-forth-to-clean-it thing.
The speech frequency pot could be verified and ruled in/out pretty easily with a DMM.
Put one lead on the middle leg and the other lead on one of the two ends. Watch the resistance value as the screw is being turned. Is it moving slowly and predictably (good), erratically, or not changing at all. It should be the former. With the screw turned all the way in one direction it's going to read zero, and all the way in the opposite direction it's going to read 10 kΩ. Make note of an initial reading so you can get it back to where you started.
Pot readings are fine and currently both are set at 5k for lack of better options.
R9 tests at 2.2 which is factory correct.
While board was out, cleaned legs on all socketed chips, no change. I'd upload a video but YouTube being difficult this morning.
When you first fire up, sounds like Alvin and the Chipmunks, after a few cycles it starts to change like a component is warming up.
20210922_053416 (resized).jpgSince that definitely sounds like an issue with pitch (frequency), it greatly narrows it down to the clock circuit.
Assuming you have version 3 of the board...
You've already tested the pot. That leaves a few resistors, capacitors, an LM741, and a couple transistors.
But before changing any components, I'd verify that the +12 VDC and -12 VDC input voltages are stable and correct at all times.
2 months later
Question- Where the red arrow points, does the pin connect to the trace where the wire is? I took a picture of the area before I desoldered the chip and I can't tell if it does or not, the wire goes right over the top of the area of course!
Looking at the schematic, and assuming it is correct I'd say the trace is NOT suppose to be connected on pin 3, but it sure looks like it was.
d4d34327aec7d979b2119e7 (resized).jpg
BH_SOUND (resized).jpg
Quoted from sparky672:Since that definitely sounds like an issue with pitch (frequency), it greatly narrows it down to the clock circuit.
Assuming you have version 3 of the board...
[quoted image]
You've already tested the pot. That leaves a few resistors, capacitors, an LM741, and a couple transistors.
But before changing any components, I'd verify that the +12 VDC and -12 VDC input voltages are stable and correct at all times.
Voltages were spot on- recapped the board and changed out 2x DAC1408A and 2x LM741 which resolved the issue with the pitch being all over the place. Still have power off groan but have not recapped the lower cabinet yet. Pin just came in when the sound issue popped up. I'll be going over BH in some detail in the near future and full recap along with good general service.
Gary
e5549a814cadf418ab5c90d5eb986326e5133db0 (resized).jpgI think this pin is trying to kill me.
Sound problems NOT fixed, has a new one related to voice circuit.
If left on for awhile will sometimes whistle or chirp. Every once in awhile the voice will sound rough if that makes sense.
A power OFF groan is somewhat normal for Black Hole.
I wouldn't worry about it one bit.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info
Quoted from ChrisHibler:A power OFF groan is somewhat normal for Black Hole.
I wouldn't worry about it one bit.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info
This is something during operation.
1 week later
Quoted from ChrisHibler:A power OFF groan is somewhat normal for Black Hole.
I wouldn't worry about it one bit.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info
Just hopefully putting this to bed.
1) Mouser order came in a few days with caps for sound board power supply, cabinet and backup caps for sound board and U10 (7402)
2) Last night pulled boards and found a new Vishay cap leaking on sound board! Not a brand I usually use and not pleased at all. Replaced all the major caps on the sound board again and the U10 7402. (SN74HC02N)
3) Replaced 2 sound board power supply caps (original)
4) Replaced 3 caps in lower cabinet, 2 of which were original.
5) Set A2 power supply volts at 5.15V as measured at Ni-Wumph MPU connector.
After all that two things of note- The pitch had changed on the voice (now slower) which I thought was interesting and I had to turn the adjustment about a half turn. When the machine turns off still has a minor groan so in this case swapping out U10 did nothing.
The machine seems rock solid now, no vocal glitches or odd noises, nor what seemed like sound board reboots in the middle of a game.
So short of anything else, far as I'm going.
Quoted from gdonovan:found a new Vishay cap leaking on sound board!
Got a picture of the leaking cap?
Quoted from gdonovan:When the machine turns off still has a minor groan
Like ChrisHibler said, it's probably normal. My game does it too and it's never bothered me.
Quoted from Quench:Got a picture of the leaking cap?
Nope, chucked it right in the electronic trash bin. If you like I'll dig it out and take a picture. Some oily substance.
Very disappointed as Mouser generally only sells quality goods. And I typically only buy Panasonic, TDK or other reputable brands of capacitors. This one might have been other only brand in stock for the particular size.
You thinking its counterfeit?
Quoted from Quench:Like ChrisHibler said, it's probably normal. My game does it too and it's never bothered me.
Doesn't really bother me either but had to change out U10 to satisfy my curiosity. It does do it less for what its worth, maybe a 30% reduction.
Quoted from gdonovan:You thinking its counterfeit?
Not really, I mean Vishay is a respected parts manufacturer.
I was curious to see if the cap vented from the top or bottom. Was it an under voltage part? Something else (like a mouse!) didn't leak onto it by chance?
Quoted from Quench:Not really, I mean Vishay is a respected parts manufacturer.
I was curious to see if the cap vented from the top or bottom. Was it an under voltage part? Something else (like a mouse!) didn't leak onto it by chance?
C36 470uF, 35V and I think I had a 470uF 50V or 100V in there.
Zero chance of a mouse.
Was out flogging it tonight, still running well. Well one of us was getting flogged! Evil machine.
7 months later
Just checking in to say that I've been playing the game regularly since I fixed my original issue and it's still good. No random sounds or moans/groans on power up or on shut down.
IMO, anyone that's hearing the groan even only on power down is seeing a symptom of 40-yr-old aging components (chips mostly). I eventually solved the issue by replacing old components; no modifications to the original circuit.
I recapped my Black Hole (the cabinet and all the boards except the sound/speech p.s. board) but still sometimes get a little 1/2 second long, fading vocal 'whish' sound at power off. Everything else works perfectly so it doesn't bother me a bit but I will recap that one last board since it does involve sound/speech.
Quoted from frenchmarky:I recapped my Black Hole (the cabinet and all the boards except the sound/speech p.s. board) but still sometimes get a little 1/2 second long, fading vocal 'whish' sound at power off. Everything else works perfectly so it doesn't bother me a bit but I will recap that one last board since it does involve sound/speech.
Personally, I don't think the caps are the main culprit here. Caps help reduce transient spikes, but the aged out IC chips are at the root of this.
Quoted from sparky672:Personally, I don't think the caps are the main culprit here. Caps help reduce transient spikes, but the aged out IC chips are at the root of this.
Yeah I just slapped those two caps on that board a minute ago, no change. Ain't no more electrolytics in there to change.
Quoted from frenchmarky:Yeah I just slapped those two caps on that board a minute ago, no change. Ain't no more electrolytics in there to change.
I know. There is always such a hard push here to change out caps. Yes, they age and have a lifespan. But their lifespan increases exponentially when the operating voltage and ambient temperature are lower than rated specs.
IMO, by and large, I think the vast majority of Gottlieb issues are caused by bad edge connections, blown/flaky chips, battery corrosion, and shoddy repairs.
Quoted from sparky672:I know. There is always such a hard push here to change out caps. Yes, they age and have a lifespan. But their lifespan increases exponentially when the operating voltage and ambient temperature are lower than rated specs.
Most caps are rated in a few hundred hours of operation, all of them are far far past their ratings by considerable margins. I have fixed countless "bad boards" by simply replacing caps. Think of them as maintenance items like oil filters that need to be changed periodically.
Just picked up this S&T board that the prior owner replaced with a new one. $14 kit from BigDaddy and its working like a champ.
0928392c6770808ae8b7fdf7eec27125756edf4c (resized).jpgAfter all the recapping of my BH I can't say it made any difference in performance, but I'd still do it. 42 year old caps, you never know. I fix old 60s transistor radios too and when one is getting power but doesn't work right or at all it's almost *always* the capacitors.
I've fixed old tube tvs and radios also (same story, almost always the caps!) and it's recommended that after restoring one, you should power them up once in a while like every few months or whatever, it helps 'reform' the capacitors back up close to their original snuff. If you don't, after several years they can get old to the point where they won't reform. So perhaps how long a particular board has been sitting unused could have something to do with the capacitors' longevity?
Quoted from gdonovan:Most caps are rated in a few hundred hours of operation, all of them are far far past their ratings by considerable margins. I have fixed countless "bad boards" by simply replacing caps. Think of them as maintenance items like oil filters that need to be changed periodically.
Just picked up this S&T board that the prior owner replaced with a new one. $14 kit from BigDaddy and its working like a champ.
They have a lifespan and they're cheap to replace; but most are rated in thousands of hours, not hundreds.
My only gripe is that when troubleshooting, you can test a cap good or bad and move on. Later, after solving the original issue, change caps if you feel they are too old. Aside from the power supply caps, the higher priority on these games is edge connectors and booting issues caused by battery damage.
Quoted from gdonovan:Think of them as maintenance items like oil filters that need to be changed periodically.
This is taking things to the extreme. Yes, they have a rated service life of "hours", but when these ratings are examined more closely, one can see that lifespan depends on operating temperature (and voltage). If you're not operating them at 105°C and 250 volts for example, then the rated number of hours increases exponentially. Literally, add zeros to the lifespan hours.
Example: A 5,000-hour capacitor rated at 105°C (221°F) will last 165,000 hours when operating at 55°C (131°F). 165,000 hours is ~19 years of 24/7 non-stop operation. Your game's caps are likely running cooler than 131°F and you're not running 24/7... play 2 hours/day every single day for 226 years and then maybe it's time to think about new caps.
source: https://www.xppower.com/resources/blog/electrolytic-capacitor-lifetime-in-power-supplies
While I also changed nearly all the caps on my game, I don't think this procedure is high priority (other than the power supply caps) or a routine maintenance item.
Quoted from sparky672:They have a lifespan and they're cheap to replace; but most are rated in thousands of hours, not hundreds.
Most that I have looked up on Mouser are rated in the hundreds of hours at their rated spec and I only generally use high quality brands from Mouser as this is an area where going cheap is foolish.
Even let's say they have not been operated past design hours, time takes its toll as well and dries them out degrading them.
Quoted from gdonovan:Most that I have looked up on Mouser are rated in the hundreds of hours at their rated spec and I only generally use high quality brands from Mouser as this is an area where going cheap is foolish.
I must have purchased the more expensive ones then. The Nichicon and Kemet I got from Mouser were rated 3,000 and 6,000 hours at 105°C.
Quoted from gdonovan:Even let's say they have not been operated past design hours, time takes its toll as well and dries them out degrading them.
Yes, true... but then what? The machine is not going to explode; no different than the hundreds of other 40-yr-old components left in service and never changed.
Change relevant caps during restoration and then forget about them.
I fully restored this 1957 Seeburg L-100 jukebox several years back. It was 100% functional despite every single amplifier capacitor being original, over 60 years old. However, after running for a while, the machine would heat up from the vacuum tubes and the sound would become more and more garbled. The fix was a full replacement of all electrolytic caps. The machine is under home-use and will likely function perfectly well for many decades... until it starts to malfunction and troubleshooting leads to a capacitor or something else.
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