(Topic ID: 291998)

Gottlieb 4 Square reset problem - motor continues to run

By RTS

1 year ago


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  • 18 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by RTS
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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Score Motor 2B (resized).jpg
Gottlieb Score Reel (resized).jpg
20210420_153855 (resized).jpg
4 Square DB relay (resized).jpg

#1 1 year ago

It was playing fine for years. I had just played about 5 games, and when I started the sixth game, suddenly it won't start a new game.

I hit the start button (game's on free play) score reels reset to zero, sounds normal, but when I expect the ball to kick into the shooter lane - nothing. The game continues to just cycle the motor. I checked all the stacked motor switches and they are all in their correct open/closed positions.

When I shut off the game while the motor is running, and then turn it back on, the motor will go to the home position and stop. But when I hit start, the endless motor loop starts again.

I did have one instance where the game started correctly and played fine, but after that game ended and I hit start for a new game, the motor continued to loop endlessly.

It seems like there is just one singular switch that may be the culprit, but past experience has shown I can create more problems trying to fix it.

The score reels reset perfectly when I manually set to a non-zero number. The problem seems to be near the end of the reset cycle.

Can anyone direct me to the most likely switch causing the endless loop?

#2 1 year ago

Does the motor stop if you remove the ball, or send it through the trough to the shooter lane? It could be that the outhole kicker isn't working so the motor keeps trying to kick it out.

/Mark

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Does the motor stop if you remove the ball, or send it through the trough to the shooter lane? It could be that the outhole kicker isn't working so the motor keeps trying to kick it out.
/Mark

No.

Motor continues to run with ball in outhole, shooter lane, or completely removed.

It only stops at home position when game is first turned on from beneath.

#4 1 year ago

Does the DB/Reset Completed relay ever trip?

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Does the DB/Reset Completed relay ever trip?

No, the DB relay does not appear to trip.

#6 1 year ago

I'd start with that then:
4 Square DB relay (resized).jpg
One of those six switches may be dirty or not closing.

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkG:

I'd start with that then:
[quoted image]
One of those six switches may be dirty or not closing.

Where exactly are the ones, tens, hundreds and thousands "runout switches?" I'm not sure I'm looking in the right area.

I looked in the back of the head and saw the corresponding score relays as N, M, L, K, and every switch was open. I don't think these are the runout switches because they all looked to be in the open position. (Plus the score reels are all resetting to zero during the reset sequence so it looks like I will severely bend every switch to have them be closed.) Again, the game was working and then not. Unlikely that all switches suddenly became widely open. They look correct.

I also looked at the XB switch with the red-blk and red-wh wires and it was closed. And I had already checked all score motor switches.

#8 1 year ago

The Runout switches are on the Score Reels. They close when the Score Reel shows a zero. As each Score Reel reaches zero during reset its Runout switch closes. Once all four are closed the DB relay should fire.

Given that the game was working I'd limit yourself to carefully cleaning switches for now rather than adjusting anything.

#9 1 year ago

Ball count stepper zero position switch may not be opening. Score reel switches can be tricky, even if they appear good, lightly clean them

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkG:

The Runout switches are on the Score Reels. They close when the Score Reel shows a zero. As each Score Reel reaches zero during reset its Runout switch closes. Once all four are closed the DB relay should fire.
Given that the game was working I'd limit yourself to carefully cleaning switches for now rather than adjusting anything.

Here is a pic of the 1000 score reel switches after the reels display zero. They are open. They are closed briefly while the reels rotate to zero, but once the reel shows zero, they are all open as shown in the pic. Same on every score reel.

The coil for the reset bar for all relays does fire, resetting them. I don't know if the DB relay or the sequence relays are doing anything because the game appears fully reset - they never move. other than the continuous score motor.

I checked the gaps for the DB relay and attempted to clean the contacts with a thin sheet of paper. Maybe it cleaned it, maybe it didn't.

That's my problem. I can't tell if anything I do is doing anything until I see things getting worse. So far, it's still the same. Almost looks like it's resetting, but motor keeps going.

If it would stop, i would expect the O switch would kick the ball into the shooter lane.

20210420_153855 (resized).jpg
#11 1 year ago
Quoted from RTS:

Here is a pic of the 1000 score reel switches after the reels display zero. They are open.

That's a picture of one of the (10, 100, 1000) Point relays. And yes, most of those switches should be open.

What you're looking for are the switches on the Score Reel (in red):
Gottlieb Score Reel (resized).jpg
The wire colors on the schematic (from reply #6) will tell you which of those switches is the Runout switch on each Score Reel.

Quoted from RTS:

I checked the gaps for the DB relay and attempted to clean the contacts with a thin sheet of paper. Maybe it cleaned it, maybe it didn't.

As far as we know the DB relay is not the culprit. It's more likely the victim of the circuit that drives it. One or more of the switches in its circuit (from reply #6) isn't closing.

Essentially the DB/Reset relay is waiting to hear back from the Score Reels that they're all at zero. Even though they are at zero, unless the Runout switches are all electrically closed at zero the DB relay won't know they're at zero.

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from MarkG:

That's a picture of one of the (10, 100, 1000) Point relays. And yes, most of those switches should be open.
What you're looking for are the switches on the Score Reel (in red):
[quoted image]
The wire colors on the schematic (from reply #6) will tell you which of those switches is the Runout switch on each Score Reel.

As far as we know the DB relay is not the culprit. It's more likely the victim of the circuit that drives it. One or more of the switches in its circuit (from reply #6) isn't closing.
Essentially the DB/Reset relay is waiting to hear back from the Score Reels that they're all at zero. Even though they are at zero, unless the Runout switches are all electrically closed at zero the DB relay won't know they're at zero.

Okay, so I focused on the switches inside the score reels. The wire colors seem so faded that it's basically useless trying to determine the correct switch by the color code in the schematic. However, I checked the zero position and determined which switches should be closed. They looked good, but the one's reel switch might not have been closed tight enough. I made an adjustment, and .. SUCCESS! The motor stopped spinning and the ball kicked into the shooter lane.

But then on the very next game, the problem was back. Score motor continues to spin and I can't start a new game. I'm not entirely sure if I was responsible for getting it to work that one game, or if I accidentally bumped into the cabinet and some other switch randomly adjusted to make contact.

I thought the problem was solved with the score reel switch adjustment, so why ain't it working after the one successful game? Frustrating. But I'll keep checking these switches.

#13 1 year ago

So I spent some more time on the score reel switches.

Apart from having to resolder a couple of wires back onto a reel, I got the game to reset about 6 or 7 times.

It doesn't seem to be a problem with score reel switches. During the score motor loop when it's running constantly, I've slammed down the pf and sometimes the force of the pf will close the mystery problem switch. The motor stops, and the ball kicks into the shooter lane. Once a slam on the coin door did it. But this "technique" still only starts a game rarely.

Are the coin door switches a suspect, or could the outhole switch be to blame. The outhole switch looks correct. Could a top pf switch be a culprit?

(The scoring when a game finally starts is completely messed up now. Also the sequence lights are screwed up too. But still trying to focus on getting a game to consistently start. )

#14 1 year ago

So the DB/Reset Completed relay still isn't firing reliably? Have another look at reply #6. There are 6 switches that need to close for the DB relay to fire. Two of them aren't on the score reels. One is on the XB/Game Over relay on the trip relay bank and the other is at 2B on the Score Motor:
Score Motor 2B (resized).jpg
The Score Motor is often mounted to a large hinge with a pin holding it in place. If you remove the pin the motor should swing up for better access to the switches. Just be sure to replace the pin when you're done.

The trip relay bank also offers better access. It has wing nuts on either end. If you loosen the wing nuts you can swing the entire relay bank up for better access to the switches. It can be a little fiddly to seat the bank back into the proper spot when you're done but take your time and it should wiggle back to where it belongs.

#15 1 year ago

Before I dig into the score motor switch, I wanted to show a quick video of how I can get a game to complete the reset cycle and kick a ball into the shooter lane.

Slamming the pf will close the mystery switch. I'm not sure if slamming is working because the switch is right beneath the playfield or if it's vibrating the score motor switch or the XB relay switch.

Could it be a switch under the pf?

https://vimeo.com/540430370

#16 1 year ago

If the problem is that the DB relay doesn't fire then I don't think it's a switch under the playfield.

If getting at the Score Motor or Control Bank switches is daunting consider using a jumper to bypass the suspected switch(es). HowardR often recommends that approach, for example at: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/capt-fantastic-bonus-hesitation#post-6240269

#17 1 year ago

Just anecdotally, I had a clean, well-adjusted switch that still did not operate reliably.

It turned out that the contact pad was loose and there was enough carbon buildup between the contact and the leaf to make it fail. I took a pair of pliers and crimped down really hard onto the contact tip to re-secure it to the leaf, the problem went away.

3 weeks later
#18 1 year ago

Problem resolved. I ended up with a few additional problems after my attempts to fix it.

Turns out it was an easy fix. All I had to do was pay a skilled pinball tech to fix it. It took a few hours.

Michael Scott is a skilled tech out of Vegas. Happened to be in my town (where he is originally from) and revamped all of my EMs while he was here.

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