(Topic ID: 194500)

Gottlieb 300 - Basket case

By WhiskeyTango

2 years ago

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  • 94 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by D-Gottlieb
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders


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#14 2 years ago

Hi WhiskeyTango +
I am irritated by the words You use in post-1 --- You "push the plastic down on the Tilt-Hold-Relay and the GI comes on" --- This is a good work-around and it helps --- but later on You write "The Tilt-Hold-Relay needs to be manually RESET every time I power on the pin / The Tilt-Relay is closed by default".

OK, there are the so-called Interlock-Type Relays (argh - the example AX-Relay) having two coils on the relay. The other relays having only one coil - when the pin is toggled-off: The relay is not pulling / is not activated / is not active / does not fire / (((we may say the relay is resetted))) --- When the pin is toggled-on and running: Such an relay may "get active / fires / pulls / pulls-in / constantly pulls / gets activated". Please use more words and describe the behaviour of the TILT-Relay - and the Tilt-Hold-Relay.
(((In such an modern pins the Game-Over-Relay and the First-Ball-Relay pull-in and stay pulling when we toggle-on the pin. The Tilt-Hold-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling when we start the very first game (after toggling-on) -- when the AX-Relay actuates at starting a game (and it does not harm when You manually actuate the armature and the Tilt-Hold-Relay then stays pulling).))) Greetings Rolf

#26 2 years ago

Hi WhiskeyTango
the snippet of schematics shows the stepping on the Player-Unit --- some steps and the Unit reaches position-20 - Z1 pulls-in and NOW the Score-Reels of Player-1 and -2 must reset ---then all the shown switches (Pl-1 and Pl-2) are resetted - Switches are closed --- the player-Unit can step one step --- so it reaches the position-21 --- and the Z2- Pl-3, -4 stuff happens.
Manually put that score-Drum into Zero-Position and JUMPER (closing permanently) the "Switch that is missing a blade) --- Only start and play ONE-Player-Games. Greetings Rolf

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#35 2 years ago

Hi WhiskeyTango
the Player-Unit in the Backbox has about 30 steps --- then a revolution of the Player-Unit is completed and the same steps will again come into action. One of the positions is called "Home-Position - also called ZERO-Position". When this position is reached the pin is ready for "Player-1-Ball-1, P1-B1, the first Player can launch the very first Ball and play this Ball. When P1 looses this Ball then (in a 4-Player-Game) the pin steps ONE Step to P2-B1. And on and on after the next ball is lost - and on and on. So we have
(Player-Unit) Home-Position equals Pos-Zero equals P1-B1
Pos-1 equals P2-B1
Pos-2 equals P3-B1
Pos-3 equals P4-B1
Pos-4 equals P1-B2
Pos-5 equals P2-B2
Pos-6 equals P3-B2
Pos-7 equals P4-B2
Pos-8 equals P1-B3 etc.
(In a ONE-Player-Game after a ball is lost: The pin steps FOUR steps - to the next ball of this Single Player Game)

Depending on "Game before was a 1- or 2- or 3- or 4-Player Game, 3 or 5 ball game" the pin does several steps when we start a new game --- step step step and then reaches pos-20 and in this pos-20 the reset of Score-Drums of P1 and P2 is done. Then a step to pos-21 and in this pos-21 the reset of Score-Drums of P3 and P4 is done. Then some 7 or 8 or 9 steps more and the pin reaches "Home--Position means Zero-Position.

Start a new game and wait for "Score-Motor does turn endlessly" - NOW toggle-off the main power switch and unplug the line cord (Safety Reasons).
See the JPG --- the pin is in Home-Positon --- my green line is an extension of the switchblades on top of the black cam - cam sitting closest to the wood / towards the players. This black cam has only ONE tooth and in the Home-Position means also Zero-Position: The single tooth actuates its switchstack.

See in Your pin along the axis of the Player-Unit - some white cams and the last cam is the black cam. Do manually step --- about (7,8) 9 (10,11) steps and You reach Home-Position - see it (?).

Then step some 5,6,7 more steps (just to help the pin in the following start-up). Plug-in, toggle-on, start a new game --- the pin comes to the fault - Score-Motor is endlessly turning --- NOW, YOU carefully do these about (7,8) 9 (10,11) steps and You reach Home-Position --- big question: Does the pin kicks-out the ball and You can play a One-Player-Game ? Greetings Rolf

apinside-SP76-player-unit-work2 (resized).jpg

#43 2 years ago

Hi WhiskeyTango +
Top to middle of the JPG shows the lights section --- ONLY of interest: The "encircled red switches" on H-Tilt-Hold-Relay --- the H-Relay should stay pulling forever so by that pulling these lights are always lit.
On the bottom of the JPG I show a way how the H-Relay could be pulsing (pulling - nonpulling - pulling etc.) --- the threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switch on H-Relay beeing faulty --- and the O-Relay steady pulling while the Score-Motor runs and runs and the SCM-1D therefore closes and opens.
BUT, but, but - You write "T-Tilt-Relay" activates and de-activates (and this makes the H-Relay do the same). Very strange.

I suggest: WhiskeyTango says "Want to bring my pin to life - by now I am NOT interested in the Tilt-Feature --- I simply unsolder the wire color-orange-white-red away from the coil of Tilt-Relay and so the Tilt-Relay cannot pull-in". The problem is not solved but put-off for a while.

I am running into confusion --- The Score-Motor is running and You keep working on the Score-Motor. I say "maybe the Score-Motor does run forever because the Player-Unit sitting in the Backbox does faulty not step to Home-Position --- lets help the Player-Unit in the Backbox to step to Home-Position. So toggle-off again and manually step the Unit and look when You reach Home-Position --- then with some paint: MARK this Home-Position --- then when You have toggled-on again and the pin acts faulty: Toggle-off - step on the Player-Unit until You (again) reach Home-Position and tell us how many steps You had to step to (again) reach Home-Position. A picture is nice but not good enough.

Please do on the PLAYER-Unit sitting in the Backbox what I wrote (about) in post-35.

Thanks for the writing (now and then) "This is where it stands now". (In Switzerland it is hour 23:15 --- time to go to sleep, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

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#47 2 years ago

Hi WhiskeyTango +
another post to come about troubleshooting - this one only is theory.
The first JPG is from another topic - schematics are drawn abstract --- see the "pink / rosa" wiring --- reality in the pin is A or B or C.

To understand the drawing of an schematics we must always have in mind that Bally and Williams and Gottlieb schematics are drawn in a very specific state: A game for ONE Player has been started means all Score-Drums are resetted, Bonus-Ladder is resetted, if there is a Relay-Bank it then is resetted, Interlock-Relays (like the AX-Relay) are moved to be "in play". (We must accept) THEN the pin is toggled-off - the main power cord is unplugged. So some relays that are steady pulling when the pin is in play: THESE Relays loose current as the pin is toggled-off - these relays "let go" and the switches on THESE Relays are drown "Relay is not pulling". We must accept the fact that the schematics is drawn in this "rather strange" state.

Easy to understand are "my green switches 1,2,3,4,5" - relays are not pulling and the Motor is not running, example "my 5" --- the "Q-Game-Over-Relay is constantly pulling when the pin has current and the pin is in state "Game-Over" and in state "Game-Over" the switch green-5 would be / is open as the relay is pulling --- BUT the schematics is drawn "unplugged, NO current there - so the Q-Relay is not pulling so green-5 is closed".
Tricky to understand is green-6 because the AX-Relay is an Interlock-Type Relay - having two coils. When the new game was started then the AX-Relay moves and at end of the Start-Up the AX-Reset-Coil fires and moves the relay into "state ready to play, as shown in the JPG" --- toggling-off / unpluggling has no effect - the AX-Relay is in state "in play" and stays in state "in play".
Tricky to understand is green-7 because the H-Tilt-Hold-Relay was made pulling when we started the new game --- pulling, pulling, pulling --- but then the pin has been toggled-off / unplugged - this simple relay having only one coil let go (toggling-off means no more current) - the relay let go and switch-green-7 is shown "NOT in play".

Look in the first JPG at my dark-red wiring - when the pin is toggled-on and a game has started and the AX-Relay is resetted (switch-green-6 is as shown in the JPG) AND the H-Tilt-Hold-Relay is activated and keeps-on steady pulling and so switch-green-7 is "moved, other than shown in the JPG": Along the dark-red wiring: The Playfield-stuff has power-side connection. Also the H-Relay has established along pink / rosa wiring its Self-Hold circuitry due to "moved switch-green-7".
TRY this: Toggle-on the pin - then manually activate (press the armature) H-Relay --- the H-Relay must stay pulling forever due to the fact that You manually have moved "Switch-green-7".

Second JPG - the Z1- and Z2-Reset-Relays: Early at start-up the S-Start-Relay is pulling and the AX-Relay is moved --- along the green line the pin happily steps on the Player-Unit (as the Z1- / Z2-Relays are not yet pulling: along the pink / rosa line) --- the Player-Unit is stepped and stepped - reaching pos-20 - the Z1-Relay pulls-in and opens its switch. Greetings Rolf

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#48 2 years ago

Hi WhiskeyTango +
back to troubleshooting - in post-1 You wrote "I picked up a Gottlieb 300 ..." - this I read as "the pin has never been running in my possession".
I look at the picture in post-39 - Your pin stops in this position (?) --- I look at the "JPG here, my Surf Champ in Home-Position" and the pictures are totally different. Maybe (maybe) an preowner tried to fix the pin - has taken-off the "Bakelite stuff turning" and mounted the bakelite stuff back again --- but mounted it "faulty / turned / twisted" ?
I refer to post-35 --- pin is toggled-off - then manually stepping the Player-Unit - step and step and step until the single, only tooth on cam-5, black cam actuates its switchstack --- THIS is Home-Position. And with the Unit in Home-Position: Take a picture and show us --- I would like to compare "Your picture to Come" with my pictures (HOME-Position).

SteveFury made an excellent topic: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-circuits-basics-to-not-so-basic --- in this post https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-circuits-basics-to-not-so-basic/page/2#post-3312314 I posted a link to "Kerry Imming" - "Last Ball information" and also "General Information".

In post-44 You still have the strange / faulty "T-Relay and H-Relay are pulsed" --- tell us about "intervals in between --- dependency on turning of the Score-Motor ? slow action or machine-gunning - rhythmically or accidentally --- write about.
THEN unsolder the wire orange-white-red away from the "Coil of T-Tilt-Relay" so the T-Relay cannot pull-in. Plug-in the pin and manually press the armature of H-Hold-Relay - the relay should stay pulling forever.
THEN start a new game --- ifever the Score-Motor comes to an halt: Toggle-off the pin - manually step on the Player-Unit COUNTING the steps You must step to reach Home-Position (cam-5 actuates its switchstack) and tell us "HOW many steps You had to step to reach Home-Position" --- we THEN can figure out "in WHAT / WHICH position of the Player-Unit" Your pin has stopped. Greetings Rolf

0Surf-Champ-Home-Position (resized).jpg

#50 2 years ago

Hi WhiskeyTango
in the list of Your pins I see You have the "300" and the 2-Player Top Score and You once had an Space Mission. So You are familiar with the sound the pins make when we start a new game.

Do not get angry - a "mild reproach / animadvert" --- I suggested to (pin is toggled-off) manually step the Player-Unit to Home-Position AND THEN some steps more (1 or 2 or 3 ... 7 ... less than 18). The reason for this suggestion was / is: Sometimes / rare there is a minor fault in the pin --- starting a NEW game when the pin is in Home-Position: In This situation the pin does not start the new game. I want to be kind and helpful to the pin so I manually step a couple of steps beyond Home-Position - then I toggle-on and start a new game.

I also would like to say "hooray" - but Your "pin goes completely around" irritates me a bit. Please toggle-off the pin - manually put some points on a Score-Drum of Player-1 --- maybe 100 or 200 points on the hundreds drum - or 1000 or 2000 points on the thousands drum - toggle-on and start a game --- big question: Does the pin acts "normal as we are used" - the Score-Drums will reset and then the pin steps further to Home-Position - and then the Score-Motor stops ? If so we then can say "The start-up / reset" is working --- and we can start having a look on "Why is the Ball not kicked over to the Shooter Alley ?".

Problem "GI is flashing": When the Tilt-Relay faulty pulls-in: This cuts the Self-feeding of the H-Tilt-Hold-Relay-Coil and as the H-Relay now let go it opens its switches that feed the playfield- and other lights.
Please unsolder the wire orange-white-red away from the "Coil of T-Tilt-Relay" so the T-Relay cannot pull-in --- then do testing - starting a new game - WHAT happens. Greetings Rolf

P.S.: The little trick of unsoldering the wire orange-white-red away from the "Coil of T-Tilt-Relay so the T-Relay cannot pull-in": It is easy to be done --- and later on "easy to solder-on the wire again".

#54 2 years ago

Hi WhiskeyTango
thanks for post-52 and the pictures in the post. We must come back to this post (stepping on the Player-Unit) --- but now - for the moment the T-Tilt-Relay: The colors (You mentioned) of the two wires are "almost right" - the colors of these wires in the schematics are called Red-Black and Yellow-Black. See the first JPG in post-47, at "my green-number-1" --- BUT these are wires on the SWITCH on T-Relay. I was writing about wire-color-orange-white-red - soldered-on at one lug of the COIL / of the elektro-magnet in this T-Tilt-Relay.
In Your picture I see on one side of the COIL two wires-color-black - the other lug on the coil has wire-color-orange-white-red --- THIS wire to be unsoldered --- by that unsoldering: The COIL can not get current and therefore cannot get magnetic - can not pull --- as we want this COIL to never pull. Greetings Rolf

P.S.: Your National Holiday is the fourth of July --- in Switzerland we have the first of August --- and it is almost over - we have past hour 23:15 - time for me to go to sleep - till tomorrow.

#60 2 years ago

Hi Shaun
this post is not really about troubleshooting - I stick to the problem "faults on Score-Drums may hinder the pin to make it through the Start-up procedure" --- some loud thinking of me - You may think of doing some of the described jumperings.

On top, left of the JPG I show (my words) "simple jumpering" and "de luxe jumpering". The simple jumpering is ONE Jumper-Wire making an wanted connection --- permanent connection. This works fine in many situations --- but maybe the problem is tricky and we want to be part of the logic - helping the pin - at a specific time we do for a short period of time "Connection" --- then we cut the connection. So the "de luxe jumpering": I take TWO long Jumper-Wires - I take the free end of both wires through the open Coin-Door out into the open --- at the time I want connection: I hold one wire on the insulation --- I hold the other wire at the insulation - and I tip together the two blank ends.
A "super de luxe jumpering" is: I mount an door-bell type push-button - and I comfortably just push my doorbell pushbutton.

Different Jumperings - the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8:
I may say "I am not interested in the Score-Drums to fully reset - I take what I get - BUT I want the Player-Unit to step to Home-Position, So I establish the permanent jumper "1".
I may say "I am not interested in the Score-Drums to fully reset - I take what I get - BUT I want the Player-Unit to step to Home-Position, So I establish the permanent jumper "2".
Whats the difference in "1" and "2" ? They are almost the same - the difference is: When doing "1" I also jumper the connecting "wire of color brown-white-red" --- doing "2" I use the original wire "wire of color brown-white-red" in the pin --- IF (if, if) I do once the "1" and then the "2" and I get different results: I am told: There is a problem in the pin in that "connecting wire of color brown-white-red".

I may say "I am not interested in the Score-Drums of Player-2 - I am only interested in the Score-Drums of Player-1 (and then later Player-3 and Player-4)" --- so I establish the "3" or the "4".
Whats the difference in "3" and "4" ? It is the same difference as in "1" and "2" - the connecting wire (here of color white-slate).

I may say "I am not interested in the Score-Drums of Player-2 - I am only interested in the Score-Drum of Player-1 (and then later Player-3 and Player-4) --- ONLY Score-Drum 'the 10000's Score-Drum of Player-1". So I establish jumpering "5".

I may say "I do all or some of the jumpering "6" and or "7" " --- I can get informations on the connecting wires in the pin I can get infrmaion of a specific switch I just have jumpered.

A question - when I do the jumpering "8" --- WHAT is the difference to "doing the '4' " ?
Well - maybe in the pin there is a fault in the connecting wire color-black-white-red - connecting to SWITCH on the Z1-Relay --- doing once the "4" and later the "8" and I get different results: This tells me about this connceting wire.

When the pin is early in the Start-up procedure - has not yet reached position-20 (on the Player-Unit): The not-yet pulling Z1- and Z2-Relays therefore have the switches closed --- along my "red wiring" the Score-Drums-Switches (ALL) are bypassed --- the Player-Unit steps and steps and steps caused by the pulsing Score-Motor-Switch-1A. THEN The Player-Unit reaches position-20 (marked brown) - Z1-Relay pulls-in and opens its switch - NOW the Score-Drums of Player-1 and Player-2 must step forward to Zero so ALL their switches close --- current can pass - Add-Player-Unit-Coil fires - the Unit steps a step forward to position-21 and the stuff with Player-3 and Player-4 Score-Drums is taking place. And after that is done: "Z1- and Z2-Switches" are both closed again --- happily / rapidly stepping to Player-Unit-HOME-Position.
Greetings Rolf

0Gtb-300-Work-07c (resized).jpg

#62 2 years ago

Hi Shaun
that kind of Time-Gap between Europe and the USA somtimes is awful - by now in Europe we have just 15 minutes past midnight ...
Just very short: HowardR is working with You on the Problem of O-Relay --- so it is better when I stay out --- with my post-60 I just wanted to show "techniques using a Jumper-Wire" --- You may buy another pin and another and another --- the use of Jumper-Wires is VERY helpful --- a) we must have an schematics, b) we must study the schematics and say "I want to test this", c) exactly do this test, d) analyze the result, e) maybe do a slightly different testing (think of the post-60 "1" and "2", "4" and "8". Greetings Rolf

#81 2 years ago

Hi Shaun
none of my Gottlieb pins have such an "Half Moon" Credit Unit - I cannot help.
A good thing is to set the pin to "Free Play" - here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm then http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#free .

Yesterday was a rather troubled day --- finally / at last my mobile phone broke down - at last completely - so I had to run around to buy me a new one.

I was and probably other readers were a little confused - the switches You were talking about - the switches You have jumpered --- well, great You could fix the fault.
In post-60 I was writing about the (my words) "de luxe jumpering". At the time You had the problem "after starting a game the Player-Unit does step to position-20 - but then The Score-Motor turns and turns and turns - no more stepping on the Player-Unit" - at that time You could have made an "de luxe jumpering of type "1" or "2" or simply de luxe jumpering the "Switch on Z1-Relay" --- when the pin comes to the "Motor turn and turns and turns: YOU are part of the logic --- YOU (cheat a bit and) make connection for just a moment - for just an step on the Player-Unit.

About (possible) confusion on Gottlieb Score-Drums - I show for "2nd-Player-Hundreds-Score-Drum" all the switches in the schematics - 1,2,3,4,5. From the Gottlieb Parts Catalog 1978 I show two JPG (I have put together) and I show the "2nd-Player-Hundreds-Score-Drum of my Surf Champ" --- big question: Were You jumpering on "my orange 2" place ? Greetings Rolf

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0Surf-Champ-SC-hundreds (resized).jpg

#84 2 years ago

Hi Shaun
Ball count does not increase: The fault can be several places --- the first thing to look is the U-First-Ball-Relay. In a working pin this happens: You toggle-on the pin and the U-Relay starts pulling and stays pulling. You start a game and in the Reset-Stuff happening the U-Relay quits pulling (see "encircled green" on the bottom of the JPG). The pin kicks out the very first Ball. You launch the Ball and You make some points --- Switches on the actuating N- and/or M-Relay make the U-Relay pull-in and the U-Relay stays pulling for the rest of the lifetime of this ball --- acrually: For the rest of the Game.
In Your pin ? (also look at the switches on U-Relay - all good ?)

Score-Drums do not acuate when the Ball is in play: In post-47 I showed "schematics is drawn abstract" --- the reality in the pin might look different. Look in the JPG here - in the middle I show: MAYBE (maybe) the Switch on N-Relay is connected to Switch on Switchstack on Player-Unit-cam-4 --- and then the wire hops to the other Switches on other cams --- maybe, maybe. So locate the wire black-yellow on "Switch on Switchstack on cam-4 on Player-Unit (along the axis) and follow this wire to the other cams.

Please write which Playfield-Switches do SCORE - what points ?
I would like to stick to a "working Playfield-Switch scoring on Player-4" --- and try to fix the other Players. Greetings Rolf

0Gtb-300-Work-10 (resized).jpg

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