(Topic ID: 194500)

Gottlieb 300 - Basket case


By WhiskeyTango

1 year ago



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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by D-Gottlieb
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There are 94 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

I picked up a Gottlieb 300 and it's giving me some trouble. I'm not EM savvy, so here it goes.

Got it all together and when you power on the machine, no GI lights up. This looks like a tilt issue so I push the plastic down on the Tilt Hold Relay and GI comes up. Awesome.

I cannot coin up. Checked, cleaned and gapped the coin door switches; No love.

So, I figured I'll just hit the start relay and see if I can start it up manually. Reset Relay engages, motor continuously spins, GI flashes and nothing gets done.

This is where I am right now and here are a couple of things I noticed and would like verified.

- The Tilt Hold Relay needs to be manually reset every time I power on the pin or the GI never comes on. Does this coil normally come on at power up?
- The Tilt relay is closed by default. Is that normal?
- The Game Over relay immediately comes on and stays on @ power up. Is this normal?
- 1st Ball relay comes on and stays on @ power up. Is this normal?

I'm not sure where to begin, so I've taken the advice of an EM pal and will be pulling every single relay, cleaning, gapping and reinstalling.

Any guidance y'all can provide would be greatly appreciated.

#2 1 year ago
#4 1 year ago
Quoted from WhiskeyTango:

The Tilt relay is closed by default. Is that normal?

The Tilt (T) relay should only be energized when one of the tilt switches is closed.

Pinball (resized).png

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

The Tilt (T) relay should only be energized when one of the tilt switches is closed.

I finished cleaning and gapping all the relays in the main cab.

It looks likes the tilt relay is not energized. The tilt light doesn’t light up even if I hit the relay. I’m assuming it’s due to the fact it never starts a game properly.

IMG_3899 (resized).JPG
But, this switch next to the score motor, which I thought was a tilt switch, is closed. If I open it up, you cannot attempt to start a game by manually hitting the start relay.

Should this switch be closed? If not and it’s supposed

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from WhiskeyTango:

Should this switch be closed?

Yes

#7 1 year ago

This machine normally will be in tilt mode at power on. The backbox lights should be on, playfield lights off, game over light on, coin entrance lights on. The ball should not eject unless resetting the machine. Upon resetting, the playfield lights will light. The AX relay is the heart of the reset sequence and is quite sensitive to proper adjustment. Ensure that it is correctly working before messing with the score motor or anything else. You can also check the coin detect. If they stick, it will cycle endlessly. Does the score reset at all?

The switch you point out is one of a few slam switches designed to prevent the cabinet from being picked up and dropped. If this switch is opened at all during a game, the game ends. The tilt switches are located below the left flipper button. There is a pendulum and a ball switch.

Cleaning, tightening and adjusting every relay is an excellent approach. Once a relay is adjusted correctly, it won't give you any problems for many, many games. This game has several latch relays in it. They successively close with each ball lighting up more of the add bonus targets and rollovers. There is also the KS relay which handles the spinning target and bagatelle lights and bonuses.

#8 1 year ago

I just got one of these running for a friend a few months back. The root of all it's problems were related to the AX relay. It was a real fussy one too.

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

This machine normally will be in tilt mode at power on. The backbox lights should be on, playfield lights off, game over light on, coin entrance lights on.

This is what appears to be going on. Should the Game Over and 1st Ball relays be on as well?

Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

The ball should not eject unless resetting the machine. Upon resetting, the playfield lights will light. The AX relay is the heart of the reset sequence and is quite sensitive to proper adjustment. Ensure that it is correctly working before messing with the score motor or anything else. You can also check the coin detect. If they stick, it will cycle endlessly. Does the score reset at all?

I cleaned the contacts and I thought I did the AX relay properly, but I will double check and post pictures. I did remove the coin mechs and gapped/cleaned those switches. I'm assuming those are the coin detect.

Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

The switch you point out is one of a few slam switches designed to prevent the cabinet from being picked up and dropped. If this switch is opened at all during a game, the game ends. The tilt switches are located below the left flipper button. There is a pendulum and a ball switch.

Thanks.

Sorry for the stupid questions, but it's a real pain doing all this without manuals and schematics.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from AlexF:

I just got one of these running for a friend a few months back. The root of all it's problems were related to the AX relay. It was a real fussy one too.

Any tip, tricks or pointers?

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from WhiskeyTango:

This is what appears to be going on. Should the Game Over and 1st Ball relays be on as well?

I cleaned the contacts and I thought I did the AX relay properly, but I will double check and post pictures. I did remove the coin mechs and gapped/cleaned those switches. I'm assuming those are the coin detect.

Thanks.
Sorry for the stupid questions, but it's a real pain doing all this without manuals and schematics.

Call Pinball Resource and get that.

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from WhiskeyTango:

Any tip, tricks or pointers?

You know I didn't have a schematic to work with. I usually like the shotgun approach. Go through clean and adjust everything properly and it should work. That usually gets you close but you also discover things with that strategy. I found a disconnected wire on the AX and thought that would do it but there was more going on. I seem to remember the "O" relay and the AX being a combined problem with my start sequence.

What helped me most was reading a couple troubleshooting posts related to the start-up sequence for 300 on RGP. I think someone had a similar problem as I did. Posted by the late great Al Garber if I remember correctly.

Guys willing to help with a schematic can usually get you narrowed down to specific areas to focus on. That helps a lot if you want to fast-track it.

#14 1 year ago

Hi WhiskeyTango +
I am irritated by the words You use in post-1 --- You "push the plastic down on the Tilt-Hold-Relay and the GI comes on" --- This is a good work-around and it helps --- but later on You write "The Tilt-Hold-Relay needs to be manually RESET every time I power on the pin / The Tilt-Relay is closed by default".

OK, there are the so-called Interlock-Type Relays (argh - the example AX-Relay) having two coils on the relay. The other relays having only one coil - when the pin is toggled-off: The relay is not pulling / is not activated / is not active / does not fire / (((we may say the relay is resetted))) --- When the pin is toggled-on and running: Such an relay may "get active / fires / pulls / pulls-in / constantly pulls / gets activated". Please use more words and describe the behaviour of the TILT-Relay - and the Tilt-Hold-Relay.
(((In such an modern pins the Game-Over-Relay and the First-Ball-Relay pull-in and stay pulling when we toggle-on the pin. The Tilt-Hold-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling when we start the very first game (after toggling-on) -- when the AX-Relay actuates at starting a game (and it does not harm when You manually actuate the armature and the Tilt-Hold-Relay then stays pulling).))) Greetings Rolf

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from AlexF:

You know I didn't have a schematic to work with. I usually like the shotgun approach. Go through clean and adjust everything properly and it should work. That usually gets you close but you also discover things with that strategy. I found a disconnected wire on the AX and thought that would do it but there was more going on. I seem to remember the "O" relay and the AX being a combined problem with my start sequence.
What helped me most was reading a couple troubleshooting posts related to the start-up sequence for 300 on RGP. I think someone had a similar problem as I did. Posted by the late great Al Warner if I remember correctly.
Guys willing to help with a schematic can usually get you narrowed down to specific areas to focus on. That helps a lot if you want to fast-track it.

Thanks, Alex. I've finished cleaning everything except the score motor(don't want to touch it) and it has been educational.

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi WhiskeyTango +
I am irritated by the words You use in post-1 --- You "push the plastic down on the Tilt-Hold-Relay and the GI comes on" --- This is a good work-around and it helps --- but later on You write "The Tilt-Hold-Relay needs to be manually RESET every time I power on the pin / The Tilt-Relay is closed by default".
OK, there are the so-called Interlock-Type Relays (argh - the example AX-Relay) having two coils on the relay. The other relays having only one coil - when the pin is toggled-off: The relay is not pulling / is not activated / is not active / does not fire / (((we may say the relay is resetted))) --- When the pin is toggled-on and running: Such an relay may "get active / fires / pulls / pulls-in / constantly pulls / gets activated". Please use more words and describe the behaviour of the TILT-Relay - and the Tilt-Hold-Relay.
(((In such an modern pins the Game-Over-Relay and the First-Ball-Relay pull-in and stay pulling when we toggle-on the pin. The Tilt-Hold-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling when we start the very first game (after toggling-on) -- when the AX-Relay actuates at starting a game (and it does not harm when You manually actuate the armature and the Tilt-Hold-Relay then stays pulling).))) Greetings Rolf

Thanks, Rolf.

Here is the situation after cleaning and gapping everything.
- Power on the pin, most of the back glass lighting comes up and the GI is off.
- The Game Over Relay(Q) & 1st Ball Relay(U) are constantly pulling.
- Does not recognize manually coining up and cannot start a game from the start button.
- Manually activate the Start Game Relay(?) and the Reset Control Relay(AX) pulls and score motor never stops running.

I have to manually, de-activate the AX relay to get it to stop.

Hopefully, that is a better.

#17 1 year ago

I mentioned to my buddy I was really annoyed I couldn't coin up or start a game from the coin door and he told me to check the slam switch. Low and behold, that switch was way the hell open. Closed up that switch and I can now coin up and the start button works.

The game still will not get through a fully reset, but its a small bit of progress. Given the new details, I've updated status below.

- Power on the pin, most of the back glass lighting comes up and the GI is off.
- The Game Over Relay(Q) & 1st Ball Relay(U) are constantly pulling.
- I can manually coin up and start a game.
- The Reset Control Relay(AX) pulls and score motor never stops running.

I have to manually, de-activate the AX relay to get it to stop.

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from WhiskeyTango:

I have to manually, de-activate the AX relay to get it to stop.

Here's the circuit that deactivates the AX (Reset Control) relay.

Pinball (resized).png

#19 1 year ago

Even if they reset to zero correctly, check your score reel switches. There are two reset switches per reel and both must work properly when the reel is at zero.

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from Toyguy:

Even if they reset to zero correctly, check your score reel switches. There are two reset switches per reel and both must work properly when the reel is at zero.

- I cleaned and gapped the score reel switches on the side for players 1 & 2.
- Set them to non-zero scores and everything resets to zero.

I'm assuming you mean the switches for the coil on the bottom?

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Here's the circuit that deactivates the AX (Reset Control) relay.

Thanks for this. Most of the wire colors are faded, but I'll see if I can decipher.

#22 1 year ago

Current state:

The game still will not get through a full reset, but I'm updating the status before I'm done for the night.

- Power on the pin, most of the back glass lighting comes up and the GI is off.
- The Game Over Relay(Q) & 1st Ball Relay(U) are constantly pulling.
- I can manually coin up and start a game.
- Player(1 & 2) score reels reset to zero. Will do player 3 & 4 tomorrow.
- The Reset Control Relay(AX) pulls and score motor never stops running.

I have to manually, de-activate the AX relay to get it to stop.

#23 1 year ago

If I'm remembering correctly, there are 2 reset switches on each score reel. One breaks the circuit to the associated points relay when zero is reached. That stops the reel from stepping. The other is in-circuit with the reset system so if that one is mis-adjusted the game will continue trying to reset and the score motor will continue to run even when the reels have stopped. Definitely get the P3 and P4 reels all checked out and she may just start.

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from Toyguy:

If I'm remembering correctly, there are 2 reset switches on each score reel. One breaks the circuit to the associated points relay when zero is reached. That stops the reel from stepping. The other is in-circuit with the reset system so if that one is mis-adjusted the game will continue trying to reset and the score motor will continue to run even when the reels have stopped. Definitely get the P3 and P4 reels all checked out and she may just start.

This is pretty much the current issue.

I set a score on the player 3 & 4 reels and tried to start a game. Players 1 & 2 reset, but it never gets to players 3 & 4.

I pulled out the reels and checked the reset switches and found the problem. The player 2 thousands reel is missing a leaf on one of the switches. With all the guidance so far, this looks like the issue.
52304085126__A74547D1-640B-4D14-8232-275101A7439F (resized).JPG

Now I need to source the damn switch and will probably buy a handful just in case.

#25 1 year ago

Hmmm having similar problems on my ship ahoy...

#26 1 year ago

Hi WhiskeyTango
the snippet of schematics shows the stepping on the Player-Unit --- some steps and the Unit reaches position-20 - Z1 pulls-in and NOW the Score-Reels of Player-1 and -2 must reset ---then all the shown switches (Pl-1 and Pl-2) are resetted - Switches are closed --- the player-Unit can step one step --- so it reaches the position-21 --- and the Z2- Pl-3, -4 stuff happens.
Manually put that score-Drum into Zero-Position and JUMPER (closing permanently) the "Switch that is missing a blade) --- Only start and play ONE-Player-Games. Greetings Rolf

0Gtb-300-Work-07 (resized).jpg

#27 1 year ago

Check the player unit in the backbox.

#28 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi WhiskeyTango
the snippet of schematics shows the stepping on the Player-Unit --- some steps and the Unit reaches position-20 - Z1 pulls-in and NOW the Score-Reels of Player-1 and -2 must reset ---then all the shown switches (Pl-1 and Pl-2) are resetted - Switches are closed --- the player-Unit can step one step --- so it reaches the position-21 --- and the Z2- Pl-3, -4 stuff happens.
Manually put that score-Drum into Zero-Position and JUMPER (closing permanently) the "Switch that is missing a blade) --- Only start and play ONE-Player-Games. Greetings Rolf

Thanks, Rolf. I bypassed the previous mentioned switch and found another in the same boat. After getting a second bypass, the behavior is unchanged. Still keeps resetting.

As a side note, the tens unit on player 4 will never reset to zero, so I manually set it to 0.

Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

Check the player unit in the backbox.

I did and the spring was a little weak, so I shortened it up and it now works reliably, although only manually. I can get the player unit to spin, but not stop, if I close the switch right @ the outhole while its in its reset loop. Odd behavior.

#29 1 year ago

It sounds like you have multiple issues throughout the machine. The springs rarely get weak, what happens is that the workings get mucked up and need cleaning. The score reels need to work correctly and reset. Going through every relay and switch is what you should try next. It is pointless to troubleshoot without first adjusting the various contacts.

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

It sounds like you have multiple issues throughout the machine. The springs rarely get weak, what happens is that the workings get mucked up and need cleaning. The score reels need to work correctly and reset. Going through every relay and switch is what you should try next. It is pointless to troubleshoot without first adjusting the various contacts.

+1 use the systematic approach, as per Clay's EM guide. http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from dasvis:

+1 use the systematic approach, as per Clay's EM guide. http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm

Exactly. It will save you a lot of headaches.

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

It sounds like you have multiple issues throughout the machine. The springs rarely get weak, what happens is that the workings get mucked up and need cleaning. The score reels need to work correctly and reset. Going through every relay and switch is what you should try next. It is pointless to troubleshoot without first adjusting the various contacts.

Alrighty. I’ve pulled each reel, cleaned and set the contacts. Is there something I’m missing?

#33 1 year ago

I had a similar issue.. found a wire off of a relay.
And one of the contacts off one of the score reel switches ...

#34 1 year ago
Quoted from WhiskeyTango:

Alrighty. I’ve pulled each reel, cleaned and set the contacts. Is there something I’m missing?

If one of the reels does not reset to 0 but the others do in that player, then, yes, you are. Solder joints can weaken and lose contact. A reflow will fix this. Check all the jones plugs in the machine. Check that all the solder tabs are straight and clear of each other on every relay. A manual has the startup sequence listed step by step. I would strongly suggest obtaining one.

#35 1 year ago

Hi WhiskeyTango
the Player-Unit in the Backbox has about 30 steps --- then a revolution of the Player-Unit is completed and the same steps will again come into action. One of the positions is called "Home-Position - also called ZERO-Position". When this position is reached the pin is ready for "Player-1-Ball-1, P1-B1, the first Player can launch the very first Ball and play this Ball. When P1 looses this Ball then (in a 4-Player-Game) the pin steps ONE Step to P2-B1. And on and on after the next ball is lost - and on and on. So we have
(Player-Unit) Home-Position equals Pos-Zero equals P1-B1
Pos-1 equals P2-B1
Pos-2 equals P3-B1
Pos-3 equals P4-B1
Pos-4 equals P1-B2
Pos-5 equals P2-B2
Pos-6 equals P3-B2
Pos-7 equals P4-B2
Pos-8 equals P1-B3 etc.
(In a ONE-Player-Game after a ball is lost: The pin steps FOUR steps - to the next ball of this Single Player Game)

Depending on "Game before was a 1- or 2- or 3- or 4-Player Game, 3 or 5 ball game" the pin does several steps when we start a new game --- step step step and then reaches pos-20 and in this pos-20 the reset of Score-Drums of P1 and P2 is done. Then a step to pos-21 and in this pos-21 the reset of Score-Drums of P3 and P4 is done. Then some 7 or 8 or 9 steps more and the pin reaches "Home--Position means Zero-Position.

Start a new game and wait for "Score-Motor does turn endlessly" - NOW toggle-off the main power switch and unplug the line cord (Safety Reasons).
See the JPG --- the pin is in Home-Positon --- my green line is an extension of the switchblades on top of the black cam - cam sitting closest to the wood / towards the players. This black cam has only ONE tooth and in the Home-Position means also Zero-Position: The single tooth actuates its switchstack.

See in Your pin along the axis of the Player-Unit - some white cams and the last cam is the black cam. Do manually step --- about (7,8) 9 (10,11) steps and You reach Home-Position - see it (?).

Then step some 5,6,7 more steps (just to help the pin in the following start-up). Plug-in, toggle-on, start a new game --- the pin comes to the fault - Score-Motor is endlessly turning --- NOW, YOU carefully do these about (7,8) 9 (10,11) steps and You reach Home-Position --- big question: Does the pin kicks-out the ball and You can play a One-Player-Game ? Greetings Rolf

apinside-SP76-player-unit-work2 (resized).jpg

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

The springs rarely get weak

Preach it brother....Truth. Weak spring = code for "Dirty gummed up crap in the mechanism"

#37 1 year ago
Quoted from newmantjn:

Preach it brother....Truth. Weak spring = code for "Dirty gummed up crap in the mechanism"

Understood. I'll work on cleaning the mech.

#38 1 year ago

Well, I've been doing things out of order according to Clay's guide. Thanks for that.

I now have the cleanest damned jones connectors in town! lol

Progressing through the steps I found a problem I'm going to remedy shortly.
IMG_6688 (resized).JPG

It looks like a wire has come loose on one the the player unit contacts. I'll solder this and report back to the thread.

#39 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi WhiskeyTango
Start a new game and wait for "Score-Motor does turn endlessly" - NOW toggle-off the main power switch and unplug the line cord (Safety Reasons).
See the JPG --- the pin is in Home-Positon --- my green line is an extension of the switchblades on top of the black cam - cam sitting closest to the wood / towards the players. This black cam has only ONE tooth and in the Home-Position means also Zero-Position: The single tooth actuates its switchstack.
See in Your pin along the axis of the Player-Unit - some white cams and the last cam is the black cam. Do manually step --- about (7,8) 9 (10,11) steps and You reach Home-Position - see it (?).
Then step some 5,6,7 more steps (just to help the pin in the following start-up). Plug-in, toggle-on, start a new game --- the pin comes to the fault - Score-Motor is endlessly turning --- NOW, YOU carefully do these about (7,8) 9 (10,11) steps and You reach Home-Position --- big question: Does the pin kicks-out the ball and You can play a One-Player-Game ? Greetings Rolf

I followed your process and here is what happened.

- With the wire repaired, I started a game and it went into the same state.
- I manually advanced the score motor back into the home position and the AX relay de-activates.
- No ball kicks and GI keeps flashing
- Lift the playfield and I see the Tilt Relay(T) activates & de-activates, in line with the flashing.

I'm not sure if it matters, but when the Player Unit stops, it stops at the position shown below.
IMG_6051 (resized).JPG
IMG_9141 (resized).JPG

#40 1 year ago

There is a tilt switch attached to the underside of the playfield located near the middle that looks just like the bounce switch you asked about earlier, however this switch needs to be open, not closed. Check that switch.

#41 1 year ago

Another quick update.

I'm angry with myself for not seeing it, but Rolf's process had me analyzing the behavior of the unit more closely.

The switch circled below was NOT close when it was supposed to be. Which is at every position EXCEPT home.
I fixed this switch and the Player unit is back in action!
IMG_3938 (resized).jpg

This is where it stands now.

- Power on the pin, most of the back glass lighting comes up and the GI is off.
- Coin up and start a game.
- The Reset Control Relay(AX)
- Score Motor stops when Player Unit returns to the home position.
- No ball kicks and GI keeps flashing
- Lift the playfield and I see the Tilt Relay(T) activates & de-activates, in line with the flashing.

Thanks everyone for getting me this far! I feel like it's almost there.

#42 1 year ago
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:

There is a tilt switch attached to the underside of the playfield located near the middle that looks just like the bounce switch you asked about earlier, however this switch needs to be open, not closed. Check that switch.

Switch looks good. No contacts touching.
image (resized).jpg

I’m going to double check the Tilt Relay for the 20th time. lol

#43 1 year ago

Hi WhiskeyTango +
Top to middle of the JPG shows the lights section --- ONLY of interest: The "encircled red switches" on H-Tilt-Hold-Relay --- the H-Relay should stay pulling forever so by that pulling these lights are always lit.
On the bottom of the JPG I show a way how the H-Relay could be pulsing (pulling - nonpulling - pulling etc.) --- the threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switch on H-Relay beeing faulty --- and the O-Relay steady pulling while the Score-Motor runs and runs and the SCM-1D therefore closes and opens.
BUT, but, but - You write "T-Tilt-Relay" activates and de-activates (and this makes the H-Relay do the same). Very strange.

I suggest: WhiskeyTango says "Want to bring my pin to life - by now I am NOT interested in the Tilt-Feature --- I simply unsolder the wire color-orange-white-red away from the coil of Tilt-Relay and so the Tilt-Relay cannot pull-in". The problem is not solved but put-off for a while.

I am running into confusion --- The Score-Motor is running and You keep working on the Score-Motor. I say "maybe the Score-Motor does run forever because the Player-Unit sitting in the Backbox does faulty not step to Home-Position --- lets help the Player-Unit in the Backbox to step to Home-Position. So toggle-off again and manually step the Unit and look when You reach Home-Position --- then with some paint: MARK this Home-Position --- then when You have toggled-on again and the pin acts faulty: Toggle-off - step on the Player-Unit until You (again) reach Home-Position and tell us how many steps You had to step to (again) reach Home-Position. A picture is nice but not good enough.

Please do on the PLAYER-Unit sitting in the Backbox what I wrote (about) in post-35.

Thanks for the writing (now and then) "This is where it stands now". (In Switzerland it is hour 23:15 --- time to go to sleep, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

0Gtb-300-Work-08 (resized).jpg

#44 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi WhiskeyTango +
Top to middle of the JPG shows the lights section --- ONLY of interest: The "encircled red switches" on H-Tilt-Hold-Relay --- the H-Relay should stay pulling forever so by that pulling these lights are always lit.
On the bottom of the JPG I show a way how the H-Relay could be pulsing (pulling - nonpulling - pulling etc.) --- the threebladed Make-and-Brake-Switch on H-Relay beeing faulty --- and the O-Relay steady pulling while the Score-Motor runs and runs and the SCM-1D therefore closes and opens.
BUT, but, but - You write "T-Tilt-Relay" activates and de-activates (and this makes the H-Relay do the same). Very strange.
I suggest: WhiskeyTango says "Want to bring my pin to life - by now I am NOT interested in the Tilt-Feature --- I simply unsolder the wire color-orange-white-red away from the coil of Tilt-Relay and so the Tilt-Relay cannot pull-in". The problem is not solved but put-off for a while.

Hey Rolf. I'll pull the wire shortly.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

I am running into confusion --- The Score-Motor is running and You keep working on the Score-Motor. I say "maybe the Score-Motor does run forever because the Player-Unit sitting in the Backbox does faulty not step to Home-Position --- lets help the Player-Unit in the Backbox to step to Home-Position. So toggle-off again and manually step the Unit and look when You reach Home-Position --- then with some paint: MARK this Home-Position --- then when You have toggled-on again and the pin acts faulty: Toggle-off - step on the Player-Unit until You (again) reach Home-Position and tell us how many steps You had to step to (again) reach Home-Position. A picture is nice but not good enough.
Please do on the PLAYER-Unit sitting in the Backbox what I wrote (about) in post-35.

I completed the process in post 35 and it helped me identify a poorly set switch on the Player Unit. That switch is fixed and it went all the way through once, but not again. It seems to get caught at the point where it engages the Z1 Relay in backbox. If I advance the Player Unit by hand one time, it will finish the cycle and bring me to the tilt state.

Here is the process.
- Power on the pin, most of the back glass lighting comes up and the GI is off.
- Coin up and start a game.
- Score Motor kicks on and Player Unit until it hits the point where it activate the Z1 relay.
- Manually advance(step) the Player Unit ONE time and it finish it's cycle and return the Home Position.
- No ball kicks and GI keeps flashing
- Lift the playfield and I see both Tilt Relay(T) & Alternating Relay(A) activating & de-activating, in line with the flashing.

Anyone have guidance around the Z1 relay? It appears to be the 1st and 2nd Player Reset Relay.

#46 1 year ago

Did you see this video? Maybe it will help with your game's issue.

#47 1 year ago

Hi WhiskeyTango +
another post to come about troubleshooting - this one only is theory.
The first JPG is from another topic - schematics are drawn abstract --- see the "pink / rosa" wiring --- reality in the pin is A or B or C.

To understand the drawing of an schematics we must always have in mind that Bally and Williams and Gottlieb schematics are drawn in a very specific state: A game for ONE Player has been started means all Score-Drums are resetted, Bonus-Ladder is resetted, if there is a Relay-Bank it then is resetted, Interlock-Relays (like the AX-Relay) are moved to be "in play". (We must accept) THEN the pin is toggled-off - the main power cord is unplugged. So some relays that are steady pulling when the pin is in play: THESE Relays loose current as the pin is toggled-off - these relays "let go" and the switches on THESE Relays are drown "Relay is not pulling". We must accept the fact that the schematics is drawn in this "rather strange" state.

Easy to understand are "my green switches 1,2,3,4,5" - relays are not pulling and the Motor is not running, example "my 5" --- the "Q-Game-Over-Relay is constantly pulling when the pin has current and the pin is in state "Game-Over" and in state "Game-Over" the switch green-5 would be / is open as the relay is pulling --- BUT the schematics is drawn "unplugged, NO current there - so the Q-Relay is not pulling so green-5 is closed".
Tricky to understand is green-6 because the AX-Relay is an Interlock-Type Relay - having two coils. When the new game was started then the AX-Relay moves and at end of the Start-Up the AX-Reset-Coil fires and moves the relay into "state ready to play, as shown in the JPG" --- toggling-off / unpluggling has no effect - the AX-Relay is in state "in play" and stays in state "in play".
Tricky to understand is green-7 because the H-Tilt-Hold-Relay was made pulling when we started the new game --- pulling, pulling, pulling --- but then the pin has been toggled-off / unplugged - this simple relay having only one coil let go (toggling-off means no more current) - the relay let go and switch-green-7 is shown "NOT in play".

Look in the first JPG at my dark-red wiring - when the pin is toggled-on and a game has started and the AX-Relay is resetted (switch-green-6 is as shown in the JPG) AND the H-Tilt-Hold-Relay is activated and keeps-on steady pulling and so switch-green-7 is "moved, other than shown in the JPG": Along the dark-red wiring: The Playfield-stuff has power-side connection. Also the H-Relay has established along pink / rosa wiring its Self-Hold circuitry due to "moved switch-green-7".
TRY this: Toggle-on the pin - then manually activate (press the armature) H-Relay --- the H-Relay must stay pulling forever due to the fact that You manually have moved "Switch-green-7".

Second JPG - the Z1- and Z2-Reset-Relays: Early at start-up the S-Start-Relay is pulling and the AX-Relay is moved --- along the green line the pin happily steps on the Player-Unit (as the Z1- / Z2-Relays are not yet pulling: along the pink / rosa line) --- the Player-Unit is stepped and stepped - reaching pos-20 - the Z1-Relay pulls-in and opens its switch. Greetings Rolf

0Gtb-300-Work-3b (resized).jpg

0Gtb-300-Work-07b (resized).jpg

#48 1 year ago

Hi WhiskeyTango +
back to troubleshooting - in post-1 You wrote "I picked up a Gottlieb 300 ..." - this I read as "the pin has never been running in my possession".
I look at the picture in post-39 - Your pin stops in this position (?) --- I look at the "JPG here, my Surf Champ in Home-Position" and the pictures are totally different. Maybe (maybe) an preowner tried to fix the pin - has taken-off the "Bakelite stuff turning" and mounted the bakelite stuff back again --- but mounted it "faulty / turned / twisted" ?
I refer to post-35 --- pin is toggled-off - then manually stepping the Player-Unit - step and step and step until the single, only tooth on cam-5, black cam actuates its switchstack --- THIS is Home-Position. And with the Unit in Home-Position: Take a picture and show us --- I would like to compare "Your picture to Come" with my pictures (HOME-Position).

SteveFury made an excellent topic: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-circuits-basics-to-not-so-basic --- in this post https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-circuits-basics-to-not-so-basic/page/2#post-3312314 I posted a link to "Kerry Imming" - "Last Ball information" and also "General Information".

In post-44 You still have the strange / faulty "T-Relay and H-Relay are pulsed" --- tell us about "intervals in between --- dependency on turning of the Score-Motor ? slow action or machine-gunning - rhythmically or accidentally --- write about.
THEN unsolder the wire orange-white-red away from the "Coil of T-Tilt-Relay" so the T-Relay cannot pull-in. Plug-in the pin and manually press the armature of H-Hold-Relay - the relay should stay pulling forever.
THEN start a new game --- ifever the Score-Motor comes to an halt: Toggle-off the pin - manually step on the Player-Unit COUNTING the steps You must step to reach Home-Position (cam-5 actuates its switchstack) and tell us "HOW many steps You had to step to reach Home-Position" --- we THEN can figure out "in WHAT / WHICH position of the Player-Unit" Your pin has stopped. Greetings Rolf

0Surf-Champ-Home-Position (resized).jpg

#49 1 year ago

Thanks for everything so far, Rolf.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi WhiskeyTango +
back to troubleshooting - in post-1 You wrote "I picked up a Gottlieb 300 ..." - this I read as "the pin has never been running in my possession".

Correct.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

I look at the picture in post-39 - Your pin stops in this position (?) --- I look at the "JPG here, my Surf Champ in Home-Position" and the pictures are totally different. Maybe (maybe) an preowner tried to fix the pin - has taken-off the "Bakelite stuff turning" and mounted the bakelite stuff back again --- but mounted it "faulty / turned / twisted" ?
I refer to post-35 --- pin is toggled-off - then manually stepping the Player-Unit - step and step and step until the single, only tooth on cam-5, black cam actuates its switchstack --- THIS is Home-Position. And with the Unit in Home-Position: Take a picture and show us --- I would like to compare "Your picture to Come" with my pictures (HOME-Position).
SteveFury made an excellent topic: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-circuits-basics-to-not-so-basic --- in this post https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-circuits-basics-to-not-so-basic/page/2#post-3312314 I posted a link to "Kerry Imming" - "Last Ball information" and also "General Information".

I didn't like the action on the Player Unit so I disassembled, cleaned the mechanism and put it all back together. After doing this, I manually advanced the unit to same HOME Position as indicated in your picture and powered on the game. Now when you start a game the Player Unit goes completely around and returns to the proper HOME Position. Huzzah!!
Player Unit - HOME Position (resized).jpg

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

In post-44 You still have the strange / faulty "T-Relay and H-Relay are pulsed" --- tell us about "intervals in between --- dependency on turning of the Score-Motor ? slow action or machine-gunning - rhythmically or accidentally --- write about.

It's actually the Tilt Relay(T) in the cabinet & Alternating Relay(A) on the bottom of the playfield activating & de-activating, in line with the flashing. This is rhythmic and seems to be about once a second. This only happens when there is a ball in the trough.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

THEN unsolder the wire orange-white-red away from the "Coil of T-Tilt-Relay" so the T-Relay cannot pull-in. Plug-in the pin and manually press the armature of H-Hold-Relay - the relay should stay pulling forever.
THEN start a new game --- ifever the Score-Motor comes to an halt: Toggle-off the pin - manually step on the Player-Unit COUNTING the steps You must step to reach Home-Position (cam-5 actuates its switchstack) and tell us "HOW many steps You had to step to reach Home-Position" --- we THEN can figure out "in WHAT / WHICH position of the Player-Unit" Your pin has stopped. Greetings Rolf

Given the current state list below, is this block above still the next thing to be done?

Current State:
- Power on the pin, most of the back glass lighting comes up and the GI is off.
- Coin up and start a game.
- Score Motor kicks on and Player Unit completes full rotation and returns to the HOME Position.
- No ball kicks and GI keeps flashing.
- Lift the playfield and I see both the Tilt Relay(T) in the cabinet & Alternating Relay(A) on the bottom of the playfield activating & de-activating, in line with the flashing.

#50 1 year ago

Hi WhiskeyTango
in the list of Your pins I see You have the "300" and the 2-Player Top Score and You once had an Space Mission. So You are familiar with the sound the pins make when we start a new game.

Do not get angry - a "mild reproach / animadvert" --- I suggested to (pin is toggled-off) manually step the Player-Unit to Home-Position AND THEN some steps more (1 or 2 or 3 ... 7 ... less than 18). The reason for this suggestion was / is: Sometimes / rare there is a minor fault in the pin --- starting a NEW game when the pin is in Home-Position: In This situation the pin does not start the new game. I want to be kind and helpful to the pin so I manually step a couple of steps beyond Home-Position - then I toggle-on and start a new game.

I also would like to say "hooray" - but Your "pin goes completely around" irritates me a bit. Please toggle-off the pin - manually put some points on a Score-Drum of Player-1 --- maybe 100 or 200 points on the hundreds drum - or 1000 or 2000 points on the thousands drum - toggle-on and start a game --- big question: Does the pin acts "normal as we are used" - the Score-Drums will reset and then the pin steps further to Home-Position - and then the Score-Motor stops ? If so we then can say "The start-up / reset" is working --- and we can start having a look on "Why is the Ball not kicked over to the Shooter Alley ?".

Problem "GI is flashing": When the Tilt-Relay faulty pulls-in: This cuts the Self-feeding of the H-Tilt-Hold-Relay-Coil and as the H-Relay now let go it opens its switches that feed the playfield- and other lights.
Please unsolder the wire orange-white-red away from the "Coil of T-Tilt-Relay" so the T-Relay cannot pull-in --- then do testing - starting a new game - WHAT happens. Greetings Rolf

P.S.: The little trick of unsoldering the wire orange-white-red away from the "Coil of T-Tilt-Relay so the T-Relay cannot pull-in": It is easy to be done --- and later on "easy to solder-on the wire again".

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