(Topic ID: 149370)

Gottlieb 2001: Thousands (1,000's) Reel Scoring Issue

By PhantomP

8 years ago


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DB_FRONT_1_FROM_LEFT_SWITCH_(resized).png
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#1 8 years ago

Dear Pinside,

WHAT I GOT, WHAT I DID, WHAT I NEED INPUT ON (3 ITEMS PER TOPIC AND BELOW COMMENTARY).

I recently acquired a Gottlieb "2001" (1971). It is an attractive package and my first EM. 20 drop targets is interesting. Very much liking working on an EM.

Newly acquired Gottlieb 2001Newly acquired Gottlieb 2001

This about summarizes what I did to it:

-Ensured proper operation of Score Reels "0" Position Switches
-Troubleshooted Score Motor running continuously on power up
-Someone had soldered Hold Relay switches "Always Closed" and switches were bent. Desoldered and restored switch function
-Cleaned Score Motor switches 3C & 1D
-Cleaned Jones Plug for 3 ball vs. 5 ball game (for awhile game would change up to 5 and back for now reason in 3 ball plug position)
-Reset Bank Armature Switch adjusted
-Cleaned switch contacts on Start Relay (S), Hold Relay (H), and Ball Return Relay (O)
-Initial cleaning of playfield with Novus 2
-Adjusted flipper EOS switches for longer stroke (improved flipper performance)
-Loosened flipper assembly spring tension (improved flipper performance)
-Left flipper "buzzes/vibrates" when held which appears to be a worn coil sleeve (planning to replace sleeves)

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Interim Outcome, It Plays:

-"Stopped" continuous Score Motor running on power up. Reset sequence appears functional: Start Button --> Start Relay --> Score Motor --> Reset Score to 0,000 --> Reset Drop Target Banks --> Etc. --> Energize Reset Bank Armature Coil and Trip Armature --> Serve Ball

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Now, the Topic re: Drop Targets Reset, Scoring, and "Loud" Reset Sequence...

1) BLUE AND RED DROP TARGET BANKS RESET

I do not get 100% success rate on resetting the Blue and Red drop target banks (Coming up say 60% of the time, sometimes "trying" and poking out through the playfield but not quite latching). Cleaning Score Motor switches seemed to positively impact success rate. 100% success rate on resetting the Green and Yellow drop target banks. I looked for any mechanical issues causing the Blue and Red reset assembly/armature to bind but nothing apparent.

Observing that the Green and Yellow banks reset in advance of the Red and Blue (by ? degree offset and ~1 second on Score Motor cam rotation).

It is that somehow the Red and Blue reset success rate is being compromised but why?

2) INTERMITTENT SCORING INCORRECTLY

Most scoring is in line with expectations... 1's, 50's, 10's, 300's. Intermittently and trending more around the 5 upper playfield ball locks (50 points or 300 when lit, etc.), expected 300 points may "score" (roll the reels) to +4,000 and then once X,000 where thousand digit is on the reel hitting same or other targets triggers this scoring of multiple thousands of points, even draining a ball will give me multiple thousands of points. Any ideas?

3) RESET SEQUENCE SOUNDS LOUD/BUZZY

Reset Sequence stills "sounds" wrong (loud/"buzz",etc.). That is, I enjoy the EM noises but I don't know if my Reset Sequence sounds normal. I have recorded a few video clips with audio, maybe a pinball intuitive can hear if anything is unusual. I will upload a few clips to YouTube if/when I receive some response to my thread. I can reproduce this same "buzz" if I manually trip the Start Relay. Sounds a bit "violent".

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For general interest, I plan to:
-Install Orange Dot Flipper Coils (GTB-A5141B)
-New rubbers
-Various cosmetic items
-Playfield restoration
-Cabinet restoration

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Please any insight on items #1, #2, and #3 above would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

PhantomP

#2 8 years ago

Update:

Removing extension cord and plugging shorter machine cord direct into wall socket has solved the Blue and Red drop target bank reset issue. I had it plugged direct before I got the machine working in general then reoriented it toward a big window to get more natural light and introduced the extension cord. Those (2) coils that trigger the armature that resets the blue and red drop targets don't like line loss.

Quoted from PhantomP:

1) BLUE AND RED DROP TARGET BANKS RESET

I do not get 100% success rate on resetting the Blue and Red drop target banks (Coming up say 60% of the time, sometimes "trying" and poking out through the playfield but not quite latching). Cleaning Score Motor switches seemed to positively impact success rate. 100% success rate on resetting the Green and Yellow drop target banks. I looked for any mechanical issues causing the Blue and Red reset assembly/armature to bind but nothing apparent.

Observing that the Green and Yellow banks reset in advance of the Red and Blue (by ? degree offset and ~1 second on Score Motor cam rotation).

It is that somehow the Red and Blue reset success rate is being compromised but why?

---

I have better defined the scoring issue(s). Playfield/rules wise primary scoring can be 1's, 10's, 50's, 100's, and 300's.

There are no issues with 1's, 10's and 100's scoring. Playfield events have these going straight to the score reel via the respective backbox relays (N, M, and L). No score motor activity, no backbox "Player Unit" activity.

Issues are with 50 points and 300 points. This game has cabinet relays for "50 Point Relay" and "300 Point Relay" (C and B, respectively).

50's work as expected for the score reel states 0,000 through 1,000. After this they do not work as expected (eg. 0,900 --> 0,950 --> 1,000 --> 6,050).

300's work as expected for the score reel states 0,000 through 0,799. After this they do not work as expected (eg. 0,750 --> 1,050 --> 6,350 --> 0,650 --> 0,950 --> 5,250 --> 0,550 --> 0,850 --> 3,150 --> 8,450 --> 0,750...).

I do note that Score Motor Cam "A" pulses 5 times per 120 degree revolution. A 50 point event yields a 120 degree score motor turn and the "Player Unit" "0-9 stepper unit" advances by 5 positions. A 300 point event yields a 120 degree score motor turn and no "Player Unit" "0-9 stepper unit" activity.

In the 50 and 300 point scoring sequences that I cited above the number "5" (5 pulses per 120 degrees?) shows itself. Eg. 1,000 + "50 points" --> 6,050 (the thousands has advance erroneously by 5). Eg. 1,050 + "300 points" --> 6,350.

The number 5 is a trend in the scoring observations. But not always, Eg. 0,850 + "300 points" --> 3,150.

I suspect Motor 1A switches (not the only suspect) but don't know if this is a switch cleanliness or gap issue.

All said, I still need some wisdom on the scoring issue(s). Thank you.

Quoted from PhantomP:

2) INTERMITTENT SCORING INCORRECTLY

Most scoring is in line with expectations... 1's, 50's, 10's, 300's. Intermittently and trending more around the 5 upper playfield ball locks (50 points or 300 when lit, etc.), expected 300 points may "score" (roll the reels) to +4,000 and then once X,000 where thousand digit is on the reel hitting same or other targets triggers this scoring of multiple thousands of points, even draining a ball will give me multiple thousands of points. Any ideas?

#3 8 years ago

Couple quick notes:

- "2001" doesn't have a 'Player Unit' (Player Units are used in multi-player games, not single-player). Do you mean the Ball Count Unit perhaps?

- offhand, the scoring issue is possibly one of two things:
a) the reset path to the 1,000 reel is still able to activate when ever the reel isn't on '0'. This would be due to a switch on the 'DB' relay not opening fully after it trips following game reset (or perhaps DB doesn't dip down far enough when it trips). 'DB' is on the Control Bank of relays.

or b) the 9th position switch on the 100 reel is closing prematurely. But this would affect the scoring without the score motor running, so I'd guess it's the reset path leaking through while the score motor runs and the 1000 reel isn't on '0'.

So I'd start with the switches and operation of the 'DB' relay.

#4 8 years ago

Thank you DirtFlipper,

Ok, I used wrong terminology. When I was saying "Player Unit" I was referring to the continuous rotation stepper unit that is in the backbox, which I believe is in fact called the "0-9 stepper unit". I was not referring to the Ball Count Unit, which is the step-up/reset stepper unit that is mounted in the cabinet under the playfield.

a) On your recommendation I will look closer at the DB Relay (Reset Complete Relay).
b) Thanks for the comment. If closer look at DB doesn't yield anything I will consider gap/timing of closure of the 9th position switch on the 100 reel.

I am home tonight and will not be able to resist the temptation of working on the machine.

I really appreciate your response. Do you have any additional thoughts/comments now that I cleared up my wrong terminology re: "Player Unit" meaning "0-9 stepper unit"?

Quoted from PhantomP:

I do note that Score Motor Cam "A" pulses 5 times per 120 degree revolution. A 50 point event yields a 120 degree score motor turn and the "Player Unit" "0-9 stepper unit" advances by 5 positions. A 300 point event yields a 120 degree score motor turn and no "Player Unit" "0-9 stepper unit" activity.

Take care. Almost there just need to channel some expertise!

#5 8 years ago

The 0-9 Unit is activated via either a switch closing on the 'L' relay (when set on 5-ball play), or by switches on either the 'N' or 'M' relays (when set on 3-ball play). So if it's not stepping, it could be those, or it could be at the 0-9 stepper itself (coil, gummed up, etc).

#6 8 years ago

Thanks for notes on 0-9 Unit. This was secondary discussion not related.

FIXED WORK AROUND YIELDED PROPER SCORING BEHAVIOR. WILL REPORT BACK WITH "FIX" IN RELATION TO WORK AROUND.

DB Reset Completed Relay switch in manual Reset Relay armature trip state (see 2nd from left switch):

DB Reset Completed Relay switch in manual Reset Relay armature trip state (see 2nd from left switch):DB Reset Completed Relay switch in manual Reset Relay armature trip state (see 2nd from left switch):

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DB Reset Completed Relay switch in Reset Complete energized state (manually opened switch w/ paper):

2016-01-17_21.53.23_(resized).jpg2016-01-17_21.53.23_(resized).jpg

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The 1000's reel is no longer receiving "5 pulses" from the Score Motor Cam A via a erroneously Closed switch when relay/switch ladder is energized on the DB Reset Completed Relay. I reset once by pushing Replay (Start) Button to 0,000 then inserted paper to manually open the switch in it's energized state. This switch is evidently in path of 1000's reel run-out switch, etc.

300 point and 50 point scoring roll-over to 1000's reel is no longer causing 1000's digit to increment more than roll-over calls for (+1,000) on 120 degree rotation of Score Motor on playfield switch closure event.

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First real game!:

GREATGREAT

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Thanks.

#7 8 years ago

The real fix of course will be to adjust the switches so that they open/close correctly when DB trips/resets. The switch for the 1000's reset on DB is GR+RED on one blade and OR+BL on the other blade.

#8 8 years ago

DirtFlipper,

Yes, this was not the real fix but a work around that got me to correct behavior. For accuracy I edited my post...

Quoted from PhantomP:

FIXED WORK AROUND YIELDED PROPER SCORING BEHAVIOR. WILL REPORT BACK WITH "FIX" IN RELATION TO WORK AROUND.

Happy to have gotten this far without a full schematic in hand!

Something still doesn't smell right with the DB Relay. My work around had a piece of paper between "PURPLE+ORANGE" (maybe MAR+YEL) and BEIGE+I CAN'T TELL? (COLOR(S) ARE FADED). This is NOT the GR+RED and OR+BL "thousands unit runout switch"...

DB_FRONT_1_FROM_LEFT_SWITCH_(resized).pngDB_FRONT_1_FROM_LEFT_SWITCH_(resized).png

Also now I don't need the "insert paper" between my closed when DB relay energized switch ("Beige" and Maroon-Yellow) alleged work-around and it is behaving totally properly without having formally adjusted ANY switches on DB (with exception of any changes that occur unintentionally through me "poking around" and opening wing nuts and flipping up and re-seating Reset Bank)...

Intended consequences, indirect work-around on DB relay, no formal switch adjustment, remove work-around on DB relay, FIXED...

For record purposes so this thread can possibly help others I will circle back with a commentary on W.T.F.

Here are my fairly thorough sketches of the DB relay switches:

DB_SWITCHES_(resized).pngDB_SWITCHES_(resized).png

Thanks again for your attention DirtFlipper.

If you still have patience/stamina to review this latest post and comment that would remain awesome.

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#9 8 years ago
Quoted from PhantomP:

opening wing nuts and flipping up and re-seating Reset Bank)

This often has the effect of removing any twists in the relay bank, which can cause problems with the armature plates tripping fully and letting switch states change. So this may have been all the fix that was required.

#10 8 years ago

Mind blown.

Good thing I now have a handy reference for the relay switches

She's still working, 1,000's reel scoring problem is absent,...

So come 1972 for single player games without reset banks and come 1975 Ax/Bx relays which of the three variants has the most voodoo involved?

Thank you.

#11 8 years ago
Quoted from PhantomP:

which of the three variants has the most voodoo involved?

They're all pretty tame in my book. It's just switches and wires.

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