I'm having some issues getting a Gottlieb Quick Draw up and running. Here's a brief overview of what I've done so far. If I misidentify a part / mechanism, please forgive me. I've ordered the schematics, but they haven't arrived yet and the old labels have mostly come off. So, I'm just assuming what steppers / relays are.

1) I follow Clay's procedures on pinrepair quite closely. So far, I've checked the fuses, cleaned and very lightly lubed the score reels and the player unit in the backbox. I cleaned a gummed up crank arm on the player unit, and adjusted to spring tension on the plungers / coils of the credit wheel.

2) Turned on the game after doing everything in (1) and found that most everything was working. The credit unit would accept "credits" from the coin door switches, the start (replay) button started a game. I manually triggered the shooter lane switch, then the rollovers, then some pop bumpers and bounce switches, and finally the end of ball switch (drain). The game cycled to Player 2, I performed the same sequence all the way through 5 balls for each player. Player 2's 5th ball drain energized the Game Over Relay. Sounds great, right?

3) However, the game would not reset on Start button or manual "S" relay activation. Also, I noticed that the drop targets would not score, and the score reels were not resetting. So, I went after the infamous Ax relay, assuming slight adjustments would fix the reset problems.

4) Now, the Player 2 light occasionally stays lit. The ball count doesn't cycle properly. The Game Over relay stays locked even when I manually try to reset the game. No targets on the PF score. Sometimes the Game Over relay kicks on in the middle of a reset. Replay / Start button does not reset score reels (manually added scores), and a whole host of other issues. Sometimes, all I get are the scene lights and nothing else.

The main point: I messed with the Ax Relay and everything went to hell. I tried to reverse everything I did to the AX switches and springs (which was very little in the first place), but I can't get the game to go back to better-working state it was in before I messed with the relay. Out of frustration, I messed with some other switches and relays a little - to no avail - but now I can't seem to get back to the better condition I started in.

Advice?

@Dirt - thanks for the advice. It wasn't the switch you suggested, but it was the Ax, specifically the top switch on the MB on the right (from above) wasn't closed when the ladder was up. I can't believe I missed that - I'm halfway back to where I was before. Targets score, flippers work.

I still can't get the ball count / player turn to cycle, and the end of ball switch doesn't work now. I'm fairly sure the stepper in the backbox is set right, so there's still something not working.

The larger problem (I think) that I'm still stuck with is it seems the Start Relay doesn't energize long enough for the reset to complete. What's weird is, if I hold the replay button (on the coin door), the Start Relay stays energized until I release it. I don't get it. I have the schematics now, but I'm still learning how to read them.

Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions. Any more advice?

I also have noticed that after I hit Start, when I get any Ball lights, it also starts on Player 2. So, normally pushing Start / Replay either causes a partial reset, or a finishes a partial reset and triggers Ball 1 step / light and Player 2 light. Anyone familiar with this? I can't figure out how to even get the game to repeat the same steps, which is hindering my ability to deduce where the problem(s) is (are).

@Dirt - So, first, let me thank you again for your advice thus far. Second, I'm going to admit that I didn't even realize that AX and AX RESET were referring to different coils - makes perfect sense now that you pointed it out.

Ok, if I'm reading your advice properly, I should make sure that:

1) the YEL-BLK / YEL-BL-RED NC switch on O (Ball Return Relay) is closed,
2) the YEL-BL-RED / OR-BLK NC switch on U (1st Ball Relay) is closed,
3) the YEL-BL-RED / YEL-BL-RED (?) NC switch on R (Hold Relay) is closed,
4) the OR-BLK / BL-WH NO switch on MOTOR 1D is open,
5) the BL-WH / RED-BLK NC switch on P5A is closed
6) and that the RED-BLK / (?) NO switch on MOTOR 1A is open.

Whew, sorry, that was a mouthful, but I'm trying to make sure I'm reading the schematic correctly.

I'll trace these lines and switches and see what happens - however, if I'm not reading the schematic correctly, please let me know. AXR_PS1.jpg

@Dirt - P5A is only closing during the reset, so it's not closing early. However, AX is still unlatching early (I can see it, mostly). I don't think it is P5A (but I can't see both AX and P5A at once, still, the Player Unit seems to be cycling properly).

@Jodini - I kept messing with the AX switches and low and behold, I can cycle through a whole 5 Ball / 2 Player game (again, finally). Player 2's 5th ball drain switches to Game Over like it should. So, it was that tricky AX relay that caused most of my newly-created problems.

Now I'm back to where I started; pressing the Start button doesn't initiate a full reset, just a partial one. If I manually hold the AX in "latched" position, I get a lot of clicking (what is the inc / dec stepper under the PF on the right for?) and cycling, but it does eventually go back to a full reset.

However, I noticed 3 things tonight.
1) The coin switches (I haven't successfully set it to Free Play yet) do different things. The coin switch on the right just adds a credit to the credit reel, but the coin switch on the left triggers the score motor and drop target bank reset - a lot more activity than the one on the right.

2) I accidentally found out that holding down the right coin switch starts a reset - is that weird? It seemed to kick the game into it's proper reset cycle - but it's just a coin switch, probably shouldn't hold it down...

3) It seems that I can only start a 2-player game. When I add one credit and press start, nothing happens. I add the second credit (and it adds 2 credits by the setting), I can start a game with the Start button (though the reset doesn't complete).

4) On "1 or 2 players can play," the 2 is constantly lit, the 1 turns on and off. Again, this sounds like it might be the Player Unit, but I have been over those switches a bunch of times, and it cycles beautifully. I'll look at the schematics to see where the 1 / 2 player switches are and trace them through, just wondering if anyone knows what else might cause this (perhaps it has something to do with only being able to start a 2 player game).

You guys have been a great help thus far, thanks for helping me keep my sanity. I think I'm close to getting this QD up and running. Any additional advice is much appreciated.

So... while I try to figure out those other problems, does anyone know what this is and why it is here? I just realized that: 1) there's a detached wire and this weird "DY" relay. I don't see this anywhere on the schematics. Any ideas?20150822_035314.jpg

Here's two more angles. 20150822_040651.jpg20150822_040646.jpg

Regarding the "DY" relay images above, the loose wires in the first pic are also confusing because I don't see a "PUR-WH" on the schematic anywhere, and I don't see a "GR" that makes sense either (those are my best estimation of what color the wires would be). I'm wondering if those wires were disconnected to add the DY relay - is this a "mod" or something?

Looked around for the "DY" answer and found this: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/im-supposed-to-place-a-gotlieb-surfer-in-a-bar-in-brooklyn-later-this-week#post-1754656

I also have 2 play meters installed on the mech board, so I'm assuming that the DY addition was to manage credits. Still, I'm not sure what those loose wires are doing - they don't appear to go anywhere close (all switch blades nearby have all wires attached). I wonder if this is what is causing my credits to "act funny".

Should I remove this feature and restore the wiring back to its original state? Looks daunting, but I'll do it if anyone thinks that doing so is a good idea.

20150822_145210.jpg
@Dirt - I blocked P5A with a piece of paper and I'm still having the same issue. AX is still not staying latched (AX Reset is energizing "early"). I set the game to Free Play, and now I can get the game to reset score reels and cycle to Player 1 / Ball 1 by pressing start around 10 times in a row (each time, AX latches momentarily then releases). Even with P5A blocked.

I'll look at the rest of the AX Reset circuit again, as well as the AX switches.

Whoops, I meant to upload this picture of P5A being blocked:
20150822_153502.jpg

Since I've set the game to Free Play, I've been able to see how it cycles a lot easier (that coin switch / DY mess is too much to worry about right now!).

When I press Start (and the reset finally completes), I can go through a 1 player game, ball 5 triggers Game Over, but the next time I press Start, the game starts on Player 2, Ball 5. Drain switch send the game to Game Over, then I can repeat this cycle over and over. Finally, something consistent.

Aside from my perpetual Reset problem, I'm thinking that the CX Reset is also not releasing the CX (2nd player relay). I'm going to look into that, but if this second problem sounds familiar, let me know if I'm on the right or wrong trail.

No. I'm sorry, this is such a simple fix. I didn't realize that the AX coil energizes just long enough to latch the ladder, then the reset completes, then the AX RESET unlatches it - I thought the AX coil stayed energized to keep the ladder down (but then what would the AX RESET be for??? Duh...). So, I still can't get it to latch, I've messed with the springs on both plates, but that's not enough to get the ladder to latch. However, if I press start, wait for the AX ladder to start to latch, manually hold it down until I feel the AX RESET kick and let go, I get pretty close to a perfect reset. From that, it seems that if I can get the ladder to latch, I'll get most of this issue cleared up (fingers crossed).

Any words of wisdom on getting that ladder to stay latched? Should I mess with the springs or the switch blades or both? It is so close to latching, but I just can't get it to stay.

Hey, I just thought I'd pop back in here and thank DirtFlipper, pinhead52, and everyone else who offered advice on this reset problem. I finally got it working with a lot - and I mean A LOT - of small, careful adjustments to the AX relay switches, springs, and even the AX RESET mount screws.

I ended up with some score reel issues (wouldn't turn over, even after a thorough cleaning and adjustments) - finally shortened the spring and fixed it (I don't really like shortening springs). I also had some issues with some score reel switches that I caused myself. Sometimes I think "Well, I have this out, I might as well make sure these switches are good." No, just no. Clay even warns against messing with non-problem switches, but I guess I have to learn the hard way.

I only have a few minor issues left, but this game should be purring soon.

I still need to get the Player 1 100's to rollover to the 1000's (so 09XX + 01XX to 1000). I had it working before, so I'll backtrack a little. I think it is the top single switch on the score reel (9's) - but I can't tell from the schematics how that is supposed to work. I do know that all adjustments will be one at a time, and minor.

I also can't seem to figure out why I get a Match sometimes and sometimes not. The "F" relay is so weird, and sensitive. I'm pretty sure it is why my Match is sporadic (I've replaced all the bulbs, seated well, I think). Looking into it.

I'm also having an issue with the drop targets. On Quick Draw, after all 10 (2 banks of 5 targets) go down, the center (black "horseshoe") targets come back up and score 5000 pt's per hit (on a single ball). They do score 5000, but the lights on the PF indicating that the targets are worth 5000 don't light up (replaced these bulbs too). However, when "A-B-C" is completed, those 5000 bonus lights light up. No idea.

Finally, when going through the reset, the drop target resets push up on the drop targets for a hair too long and makes a wild buzz when it does so. I think the buzz is coming from the vibration on the bar / arm that raises the drop targets against the target arms. I've tried tracing the switches to the coils that raise the targets (it happens on both right and left banks), but I can't seem to figure out which switch might be staying closed too long. Any ideas?

Thanks again to everyone - I'm so close!

PS - If anyone has a 1975 Gottlieb lockdown bar (one piece, screws not tabs) for sale, I'm in need of one. Post here or PM me - shipping to US.

Just to put some closure on this thread, I got almost all of the work on the mechs done. There was still an issue with the "horseshoe" lights not coming on when the horseshoe drop targets were worth 5000 - it was befuddling me for some reason. I sold the game to a very excited and motivated buyer before I could strip the paint / rust off of the coin door / legs / rails. I miss it already, but I couldn't turn down the offer.

Thanks to everyone who helped me through the tough spots. I learned a lot and will continue to learn (I already have another machine, a 1965 Williams "Moulin Rouge" that needs some serious work).

Here's a few pics:
The stuck Player Unit crank arm:20150815_133242.jpg

The parts of the PU arm being cleaned:20150815_143101.jpg

The reassembly of the PU: 20150815_144800.jpg

The Credit Unit disassembled (even though I set it to free play, just wanted it to work):20150815_175520.jpg

Some CU parts being cleaned: 20150815_175534.jpg

Dirty and stuck "F" Relay:20150816_175554.jpg

A freshly cleaned and shiny "F" Relay board (mini-stepper):20150816_180302.jpg

Dirty PF:20150826_191921.jpg

Continued:

Plastics on the wrong way (outsides) with the wrong rubber: 20150826_192009.jpg

PF view: 20150826_192039.jpg

Dirty PF close up:20150826_200635.jpg

Lower PF stripped (still dirty):20150826_200642.jpg

Upper PF stripped (in the process of cleaning, replacing bulbs): 20150827_002052.jpg

Plays great!

20150904_134408.jpg

Oh, and I can't forget the score reels:
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20150812_141912.jpg
20150812_141919.jpg
20150812_144313.jpg
20150812_144329.jpg
20150813_101302.jpg
20150813_102248.jpg

The method I learned for holding the gear / sprocket (?) and spring in place on the Nylon arm when replacing the reel:

First, put the gear and spring in the correct spot (teeth lined up correctly).
Next, use a finger to put pressure on the arm so the spring under the gear doesn't pop it off. Note: be careful not to press down on the 0 / 9 switches under your finger.
20150828_000016.jpg20150828_000030.jpg

Next, put the reel, bushing, contacts, circuit board, washer, and clip on while holding the pressure on the arm:
20150828_000213.jpg

Saved me from a lot of frustration - the spring kept popping the whole reel assembly up and out of place when I was trying to reassemble the things.

Finally, here's a link to video of me playing a game - I still had some tweaks to do (sticking 9), but the machine went from not working to playable in my fumbling care. Thanks again, everyone!!!

Thanks goldenboy232, it was a challenge, but a fun one.

@Raff - Hey, sorry, I missed this forum update. Yes, the chime unti is connected now. Why do you ask?

@Raff: Ahh, right. I didn't have the chime unit connected when I made that video - forgot about that.