(Topic ID: 112472)

Gottleib Mustang newbie needs help.

By Kyanite

9 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

score reel at 3.JPG
score reel at 0.JPG
relay rows.jpg
h relay.JPG
q 2 relay.JPG
q1.JPG
AX short stack.jpg
AX tall stack.jpg
bronco.JPG
IMG_2552.JPG
IMG_2550.JPG
IMG_2549-501.JPG

There are 86 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 9 years ago

You can use a regular Multimeter to check continuity but you need to pay close attention to what its reading. A set of closed contacts should be a dead short. It should read virtually the same as if you touched the two test leads together. Same goes for checking a fuse (unless it is rated less than 1/2 amp). On many meters, that would be something like 0.4 ohms. A typical DVM would have a low ohms setting of 200 which may or may not give you readings less than 1 ohm. 2 or 3 ohms across a set of contacts would probably be a "Bad" reading since some solenoids have a load of less than 2 ohms. This is why even though a contact appears to be closing, it may not be making good electrical contact for an EM logic circuit. Many of the newer DVM are auto ranging and may or may not go down low enough, or allow you to "lock" them into the lower ohms scale. If it can't lock, then each time you test, you have to wait for the meter to start in the high scale (megohms) and work its way down to the lower ohms scaling before you will get a valid reading. It has been so long since I have used an Analog meter (needle style) I am not sure how low they go to read low ohms readings but should go down to a 10 or 100 ohms scale if I remember correctly.

If you have an auto parts store near by, you can purchase a points file (or a needle file set at a local hardware store) to file your points. You don't have to wait for your flex stone to arrive. If you go with the metal file, always turn the power off when cleaning contacts. These are my preferred tool over a flex stone.

#52 9 years ago

Don't forget to look at the soldering tabs on the back of the switches, they can easily bend and short out onto whatever is close.

#53 9 years ago
Quoted from jasonsmith:

Don't forget to look at the soldering tabs on the back of the switches, they can easily bend and short out onto whatever is close.

Very true. Although in this case it seems there's an open to track down. But the back tabs could have a cold solder joint, with a wire loose.

#54 9 years ago
Quoted from Kyanite:

Yes I can get it to go to tilt and the playing field lights shut down. Will tray and re-clean jones plugs.
Can I use a regular multimeter to test continuity or will I need something more specialized/sensitive?

That's an excellent data point then. That means that there's continuity through H and AX, which really helps narrow it down to one side or the other of Q.

Where are the AX and Q relays physically located on Mustang? Q is on the score motor board (I think), and AX is in the backbox?

The jones plugs do seem likely though. In addition to the plugs and receivers, there's also the wire connection into the plugs (they're soldered into the tubes). I've seen at least one be loose before (wire was able to pull out of the tube).

At least in this case it should be that Red+White wire, so easier to visually track.

#55 9 years ago

Thank guys! You are helping me keep the hope alive I can get this thing up and running.

Quoted from CactusJack:

If you have an auto parts store near by, you can purchase a points file (or a needle file set at a local hardware store) to file your points.

Will Do Cactus.

Quoted from jasonsmith:

Don't forget to look at the soldering tabs on the back of the switches, they can easily bend and short out onto whatever is close.

Will verfiy again tonight, I'll have to be extra careful because my sausage finger coul actually do more harm than good.

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Where are the AX and Q relays physically located on Mustang? Q is on the score motor board (I think), and AX is in the backbox?

See attached pic, they are all located in 2 rows in bottom box.relay rows.jpgrelay rows.jpg

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

The jones plugs do seem likely though. In addition to the plugs and receivers, there's also the wire connection into the plugs (they're soldered into the tubes). I've seen at least one be loose before (wire was able to pull out of the tube).

On this again this evening, got a .17 calibre rifle cleaning brush to help out on the female plugs.

#56 9 years ago
Quoted from Kyanite:

they are all located in 2 rows in bottom box

OK, then since AX and Q are co-located, that would suggest focusing on the Red+White wire that leaves the score motor board from Q via the jones plug to the playfield (should be one of the two in the back right of the board in the cab).

#57 9 years ago

Here's what I'm using for multimeters.
http://www.meterstesters.com/product/meters/digital-clamp-meters/digital-clamp-meter-dt266.html
and
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16803001522
Can I verify continuity at the level Cactus spoke of with my equimpent? I am an amateur at best in the electronic world (ie I can hook up lights, install house wiring, check voltage etc) but I'm a little lost on this continuity thing as I thought I had the ability using to check using 200 ohms.

I recleaned all the jones plugs to a shine and have been able to trace all the Red+white wires from the relays to the jones plugs. Solder joints all look good. I'm realizing that this is a continuity issue at the moment but not sure if my equipment can help me or I just need tutuoring on how to use?

#58 9 years ago

well to add insult to injury I just reset the game and now ball 1 and ball 5 are lit with no lights to playing field.

and you guys enjoy this?

#59 9 years ago

OMG, got lights back to playing field by releasing lever on unit count relay....

#60 9 years ago

The next option would be to use a jumper wire (basically a long-ish wire with alligator clips on both ends). It requires hooking up the alligator clips to the right spots in a circuit (like jumper cables), and bypassing a section of the path where a suspected open exists.

In this case, you'd hook up to say, the Red+White switch tab on Q (or AX) on one end, and something definitive to represent the playfield. Many choices there, but the nearest flipper switch might be handy (on the side of the cabinet). The key is to attach to the Red+White wire there, not the other side of selected switch (i.e., still want the flipper switch to do its job). So basically running a jumper wire straight from the working side of AX or Q to a direct spot on a playfield that's on the same path. That will bypass whatever voodoo is in between and at least show it's possible to activate the playfield.

When hooking up a jumper wire, it's important to not cause an unexpected short by itself, so ensure that the alligator clip ends only connect to the desired tab, and not touch anything adjacent.

It's basically brute force, but it is a way to make progress. You jumper from near the last known good working spot on the path to something on the other side until it works. Then narrow it down from there (moving the jumper wire ends 'closer' to each other until the open is isolated).

You could even jumper from the Red+White on the female side of the jones plug to the male, or from the tab on Q to the male side of the jones plug. It's still possible the open lies between Q and the jones plug (on the score motor board).

#61 9 years ago
Quoted from Kyanite:

and you guys enjoy this?

yea, it's hard to believe, huh?

you'll understand why once you get it running... the feeling of satisfaction when you fix something is very strong...

#62 9 years ago

And while the focus has been on the Red+White wire, for completeness, should also look at the Black return wire. All the coils are effectively in parallel between the Red+White active side and the Black common side. The switches control the logic that feeds each coil (and when they energize), but an open on either path will prevent the coils from energizing.

#63 9 years ago

Holy cow, just turned on machine to work through what Dirt suggested and back box lights would not turn on, Scorer relay actuates so I know that there is at least power to the back box but just not the lights. Can I continue with the troubleshooting of the playing field activation without back box lights? I am getting pretty frustrated

#64 9 years ago
Quoted from Kyanite:

Holy cow, just turned on machine to work through what Dirt suggested and back box lights would not turn on, Scorer relay actuates so I know that there is at least power to the back box but just not the lights. Can I continue with the troubleshooting of the playing field activation without back box lights? I am getting pretty frustrated

make sure you plugged all the jones plugs back in and that they are seated correctly....

#65 9 years ago

Check the fuse and fuse holder for the backbox lights (aka "Light box" on the label probably). Doesn't take much wiggle room to break that connection at the fuse. Take the fuse out, squeeze the tabs just a bit (not too much, don't break them), put fuse back.

But yes, can continue without those lights.

#66 9 years ago

If you look at the schematic, you'll see that for the backbox lights ("Name and scene lights"), there's only the fuse on that 6V path. So between the fuse, fuse holder, and jones plug, there's a short debug list. It's usually the fuse holder not holding the fuse tightly enough though.

#67 9 years ago

Awesome! Got the lights running by tightening fuse holder. Got the playing field to activate as well by jumping Red+White wire from Q relay to Jones plug. I checked the jones plug again for loose connections but didn't find any. I cleaned the contact on the Q relay again but only get playing field activation from jumping to Jones plug. Was great to hear the sounds of the machine though!

#68 9 years ago
Quoted from Kyanite:

Awesome! Got the lights running by tightening fuse holder. Got the playing field to activate as well by jumping Red+White wire from Q relay to Jones plug. I checked the jones plug again for loose connections but didn't find any. I cleaned the contact on the Q relay again but only get playing field activation from jumping to Jones plug. Was great to hear the sounds of the machine though!

Hallelujah. Brute force still works at least.

Did you run the jumper from Q to the female jones receiver on the same board, or across to the male plug? (A picture would be terrific.)

At least the open is somewhat isolated (and confirmed). It's possible, but rare, for there to be an open wire within the cloth, which is about the worst thing for a newcomer to encounter right off, so we'll assume it's elsewhere still for now. So for example, if you jumper across the jones plug (female side to male side), that would be another isolation point.

#69 9 years ago

SHEWWW...... Just unloaded the 12 family members that stayed at my house the past week and ready to continue on. I last left off with a jumper from Q to the Female jones plug. I was able to get the playing field to activate, the kick outs to work and my kids, nieces and nephews got a LOT of playing time. What I now see are immediate issues are:

1. The drop targets are sticky and don't reset fully causing them to continually rack up scores. Temporary remedy is just pushing them down when the get stuck.

2. The scoring wheels are need to be manually rolled to all zeros prior to resetting game. You can hear that the are trying but I think the rolls need to be removed and cleaned thoroughly.

3. The player stepper unit needs to be cleaned as well because even thought the machine registers ball 1/player 1 and then ball 2 and so on, the ball continues to be kicked out to plunger and the game never ends.

4. Lots of lights out and need to take care of that

What should I tackle first?

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

So for example, if you jumper across the jones plug (female side to male side), that would be another isolation point.

I will check this this evening.

#70 9 years ago

drop target bank needs to be torn down/cleaned/de-gunked... this isn't as scary as it looks... although you MIGHT get away with trying just a BIT of superlube where the trigger rides on the target... i'd do the "full job" anyway, though...

well, since you gotta fix all of it, the order doesn't much matter...

i'd do the reels first, just because they are the biggest pita and i'd want to get them out of the way...

#71 9 years ago
Quoted from Kyanite:

I last left off with a jumper from Q to the Female jones plug.

If those are on the same board (I think you said they were on the bottom cab board), then jumpering from the female side to the male side probably won't make it work (i.e., the open is between Q and the female jones plug, on the same board).

But it might depend on which switch on Q you jumpered over. You might try just jumping across the switch on Q that needs to be closed (so a clip on each blade). If that works, then the problem is right there at the switch. If not, then it's still between Q and the female jones plug.

Otherwise, all the steppers (e.g, Player Unit, score reels, credit) and drop targets will eventually need to be cleaned up. The order doesn't so much matter. You might find it easier to work on everything in the backbox together though. Taking the insert panel out and working on everything with it laying down horizontal helps sometimes. But doing one piece at a time and then making sure the game is still behaving is helpful too. Take lots of pictures of things before disassembly too.

#72 9 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

You might try just jumping across the switch on Q that needs to be closed (so a clip on each blade). If that works, then the problem is right there at the switch. If not, then it's still between Q and the female jones plug.

I did this and no luck, must be between Q and Jones plug.

1. I am going to try and clean drop target bank and wanted to know what is the best way to go about it. There is a fair amount of white gunk around the targets, when I clean the bank where should I focus for lubrication points and what type of lube? I'm a bit nervous because I don't want to dissasamble any switch stacks in the process and hope I can perfome the work without doing so.

2. I was investigating the scoring reels last night and noticed that several of the reels can manually be rolled back an number or so while other reels are locked tight. Which is the preference?

I need to get a soldering iron as well, any suggestions?

Thanks,
Patrick

#73 9 years ago

^^^

1) the best (only) way to clean it is to take it apart... there really is no other effective way... there aren't any lube points, that's likely part of your issue, is that a previous owner attempted lubing various points to try to make the targets drop and now all that crap needs to be cleaned out... it should be put together "dry"...

you don't have to diassemble the switch stacks, they unscrew from the frame... wrap a bit of tape around them to keep them from coming apart (and to keep from losing the screws)...

the best way to deal with this is to remove the entire assembly from the machine (unscrew switch stacks, release the coil from its mount, and then unscrew the assembly from the pf...

when putting it back in, some targets may still not want to drop... sometimes the switches need to be adjusted a bit so they don't put too much pressure on the trigger and keep it from moving... sometimes a bit of superlube is called for where the trigger slides on the switch...

2) they should not roll back... there is a little thingie in there that should stop the reels from rolling backwards...

#74 9 years ago

Excellent guidance on the drop target, thanks. Got them up and running.

Now the scoring reels. The machine attempts to re-zero them during the reset process but several of the wheels"stick". I took apart the reels and adjusted

Quoted from ccotenj:

a little thingie in there that should stop the reels from rolling backwards...

and now none of the reels roll backward.

I now have reels that appear to be sticking and don't quickly snap to the next number when the solenoid is manually pushed. I took apart a score reel last night by removing all circuit board, plastic parts and springs. I cleaned the the plastic parts and the sanded/cleaned the interface of the sliding plastic piece and the metal bracket. The plunger looked clean and I wiped it down for good measure. The end result was no progress. Wheel still reacts slowly to manually activation. Ideas? Coud there be enough gunk on circuit board to cause this? I'm operating under assumption that all reels need to quickly/s moothly rotate to next number.

#75 9 years ago

Does it occur on each number, or only on a specific transition (e.g., from 8 to 9, or 9 to 0)?

If every number, then could try it with the PCB off (can use a temporary washer like used on the 100's reel) and see if there's some form of mechanical bind. Can also try it with the switch stack off to further reduce any interference/variables.

If only on the later digits, then check the switch stack adjustment; too much blade pressure can make it difficult for the reel to travel.

#76 9 years ago

Will check this evening, thanks. It's pretty frustrating to keep breaking solder joints during this but I guess if they are weak then it's best to re-solder.

#77 9 years ago
Quoted from Kyanite:

Will check this evening, thanks. It's pretty frustrating to keep breaking solder joints during this but I guess if they are weak then it's best to re-solder.

I'd say so. Can give the wires a bit of a tug test as you go and weed out the cold solder joints early and get them re-soldered before having to track them down in the game later.

#78 9 years ago

I'm mildly embarrased to admit that I am not very familar with solder work. Is there a prefererred method and type of solder?

#79 9 years ago
Quoted from Kyanite:

I'm mildly embarrased to admit that I am not very familar with solder work. Is there a prefererred method and type of solder?

There's lots of info online that explains soldering, much better and in more detail than I could muster. The thing with a cold solder joint is to make sure the surface is clean (sanding it a bit helps), and also to 'tin' it a bit first before trying to reattach the wire. Heat the surfaces, and let the solder melt onto it, rather than heating the solder and having it land on the surface (otherwise another 'cold' solder joint is created).

Poke around online searching on soldering and you'll do fine.

#80 9 years ago

Well I took apart and cleaned all my score reels, when manually plunged most seem to be hesitant around "9" but when I started a game and registered the score they reels seemed to be fine going from "9"- to "0". The score reels seem to keep up with the playing field scoring

The problem now is that I can't get the reels to even try to reset and they have to manually be "zeroed" to start the game. When I turn the machine on and the reels aren't zeroed t, the score motor just runs. Is the score reset a fuction of the stepper unit? The stepper unit is not functioning properly either and was next on my list to clean.

I did just pick up a soldering iron and was goint to work on the detached wires on the score reels (all seem to be associated with 1-5 on the cicuit board I think). I'm making the assumption that these disconnected wires would not have anything to do with the lack of reel reset mentioned above.....?

#81 9 years ago

The middle switch on the switch score reel switch stacks need to be closed to indicate that the reel is not at zero in order for it to reset. Then at zero, that switch opens and the bottom one closes.

Did you take pictures of a working reel prior to taking apart and reassembly? (Or leave one reel alone as reference?) If not, post a picture of a non-resetting reel's switch stack while the reel is not on zero, and can maybe spot the issue.

By 'stepper unit' you are referring to the Players Unit? If so, yes, there are switches on the cam switch stacks that also need to close in order for the reset path to reach the score reels. So could either be switches there, or the 'runout' switches (i.e., middle switches) on the reels.

Just turning the machine on shouldn't cause the score motor to run. Is the AX relay unlatched?

Disconnected wires on the PCBs won't affect score reel reset.

#82 9 years ago

I did not disassemble the switch stacks during the cleaning of the score reels. None of the reels even attempt to reset when not on zero. Please see ics below for typical score reel switch stacks.

I add credits and turn on machine and if the reels aren't at zero, the score motor runs unless I manually actuate the AX relay. Maybe AX needs actuated/scoring motor runs because I have to turn off machine when ball in play and playing field active because players uinit never registers "Game over"?

Pic of score reel at 0:score reel at 0.JPGscore reel at 0.JPG

Pic of score reel at 3:score reel at 3.JPGscore reel at 3.JPG

#83 9 years ago

If that's the score reel at position 3, then the 9th position switch is mis-adjusted (which is the switch blade on top in your picture, with the longest blade). It should only close when the score reel is on number 9, and should be open otherwise.

But that won't affect the reset.

The AX relay is an interlock relay, so has two positions: latched and unlatched. The 'latched' position is when the armature plate holding the switch stack is pulled in towards the coil, and the 'unlatched' position is when it is away from the coil. This relay has to activate and go to the latched position in order for the reset of the score reels to work (and run the score motor in the process).

So when you say you 'actuate' it, are you unlatching it? (Guessing so, since that would stop the score motor from running.)

If on start the AX relay is latching OK, causing the score motor to run, but the reels aren't moving, then an open in the reset path has appeared. Could be a switch right on the AX relay, which needs to close when AX is latched. So could check those at least. Otherwise will have to check the schematic later to recall what else is in that path.

#84 9 years ago

Does the Player Unit step at all during startup/reset?

I think on the two-player the score reel reset just goes through a switch at score motor position 1A, and then switches on the cam switch stacks on the Player Unit. But if the Player Unit is in the wrong position, and not moving to the correct position, then not much will happen.

You might try manually stepping the Player Unit a few steps and see if things take off.

#85 9 years ago

The player unit steps during reset, how do you manualy step the unit? I will try and upload a video as soon as I can. I am working on the road this week and will take a look at the machine on Friday to try and answer you questions. I will also take another look at the score reel switch stacks, I may have labled my pic for the score reel in postion 3 where it may have been in 9.

#86 9 years ago
Quoted from Kyanite:

how do you manualy step the unit?

By pushing in the plunger on the large coil that's mounted on the backside of the Player Unit, on the right-hand side. Can try it with the power off to get a feel for it first.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
From: $ 12.99
Cabinet - Other
The Pinball Scientist
Other
From: $ 5.95
Playfield - Protection
The Pinball Scientist
Protection
From: $ 4.99
Cabinet - Decals
The Pinball Scientist
Decals
$ 89.99
Apparel - Unisex
PinShades
Unisex
From: $ 10.00
Playfield - Protection
arcade-cabinets.com
Protection
There are 86 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottleib-mustang-newbie-needs-help/page/2 and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.