(Topic ID: 327426)

Gottleib Flipper Clown - (Update) - Ball count and target issues

By Arkate

3 months ago


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  • 25 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 87 days ago by durriti
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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Right side first part 2.gif
Right side first part 1.gif
Left side first part 2.gif
Left side first part 1.gif
Flipper Clown W relay (resized).jpg
Flipper Clown target scoring lights (resized).jpg
Flipper Clown Balls to Play (resized).jpg

#1 3 months ago

Hey everyone,

I recently picked up a flipper clown and have been trying to get it to start, right now it will cycle balls endlessly but doesn't count down balls, and doesn't start a game when you push the start button - in fact pushing the start button electrocuted me - any ideas where to start looking into this?

Much appreciated
Kate

Added 95 days ago:

The game is now starting and the ball count unit functions properly on start up and add-a-ball; however, it does not subtract a ball from the ball count when the ball drains. When you start a game with balls left it will step down to game over then back up to 5 correctly, but when a ball drains it just releases it to be launched again

Also the 'right/left target when lit' lights are all lit, and choosing a number via the roto-target is not functional

#2 3 months ago

Behind the start button is some fish paper (electrical insulating paper) that has a hole in it. Replace that first.

After that, your issues may range from score reels not setting to zeros all the way across, to bad (dirty) switches on any of the relays in the start up sequence, to dirty stepper units that will need to be cleaned.

Above all, get rid of the shock hazard before proceeding to anything else.

#3 3 months ago

Pinrepair.com has invaluable information on it.

#4 3 months ago

As an update I cleaned the relay bank and can get the start relay to trip and the slap off switch works now.

Now the motor runs endlessly and it seems to be trying to reset the left and right targets. I verified relay J is not firing and cleaned and adjusted the contacts that would indicate a complete reset of those steppers but no luck yet

The fish paper is intact on the front button, and actually isolated by an armature that's rubber coated in contact spots as well - right now noone else is around this machine so I will worry about that after I get the rest of it running

#5 3 months ago

Another update - some leftovers from the coin mech were still in place, and pushing the button far enough caused the switch to contact a small metal clip and short against the door - shock hazard has been resolved

#6 3 months ago
Quoted from Arkate:

Now the motor runs endlessly and it seems to be trying to reset the left and right targets.

Does the trip relay bank with the S/Start relay in it ever reset? The tripped S/Start relay will keep the Score Motor running (which will keep targets resetting) until the bank resets. That requires the S Armature switch to be closed (below the trip bank) and switches on the Ball To Play Unit to close.

/Mark

1 week later
#7 3 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Does the trip relay bank with the S/Start relay in it ever reset? The tripped S/Start relay will keep the Score Motor running (which will keep targets resetting) until the bank resets. That requires the S Armature switch to be closed (below the trip bank) and switches on the Ball To Play Unit to close.
/Mark

The bank never resets. I verified the S Armature switch is adjusted properly - I can't seem to figure out what 'On Add Balls to Play Unit' is referencing - I've cleaned and adjusted the switches on the ball count unit but that didn't seem to make a difference

#8 3 months ago

OK so I got that sorted - the reset bank contacts are the ones that contact in the game over position. If I set the ball count to game over it will start properly except it starts with 6 balls instead of 5.

It is also still not counting down balls on drain. I cleaned up both B and F relays as well as switch stacks for motor 1c and 2b no change

Verified adjustment of contacts on K, L1, and P1 and all seem fine

Not too sure where to take it from here

#9 3 months ago

It should count down to zero, then count up to five at the start of a new game. Yours might be skipping the count down part. There are two paths into the Subtract Balls To Play solenoid:
Flipper Clown Balls to Play (resized).jpg
The upper path through the S/Start relay switch is used during reset and the lower path is used during game play. If you jumper around the Zero Position switch (by connecting yellow+red to green-yellow) does it count down?

#10 3 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

It should count down to zero, then count up to five at the start of a new game. Yours might be skipping the count down part. There are two paths into the Subtract Balls To Play solenoid:
[quoted image]
The upper path through the S/Start relay switch is used during reset and the lower path is used during game play. If you jumper around the Zero Position switch (by connecting yellow+red to green-yellow) does it count down?

It does not, The first ball drained added a ball (now showing 6 balls) then any ball after that does nothing to the ball count

#11 3 months ago

The start up sequence for flipper clown is on pinwiki, section 5.2 if this helps.

#12 3 months ago

Another thing you might check is the three slotted screws that hold the wiper on the wiper mounting spider. l find that these screws slacken slightly over time allowing the wiper arm to 'drift' off center.

#13 3 months ago

So it will reset to Game Over and count up to 5 balls on start, but it never subtracts balls when playing.

I'm thinking this has something to do with the add-a-ball or the win relay for the targets, adding a ball on 2000 points works

#14 3 months ago

Also - both 'target when lit' lights are always lit - I think these are supposed to alternate but I'm not sure

#15 3 months ago

Reply sent in private message

#16 3 months ago
Quoted from Arkate:

but it never subtracts balls when playing.

Have you experimented with the circuit in reply #9? That would be a good place to start.

Quoted from Arkate:

Also - both 'target when lit' lights are always lit

I'm not sure which lights you're referring to. There are three Left Target When Lit rollover lights that work together, and three more for the right target. They should be lit when the Left Target Scoring Unit is in position 0:
Flipper Clown target scoring lights (resized).jpg
The Left and Right Target Scoring Units are steppers under the playfield in the back (see: https://gottliebpin.com/archive/GTB-Ref/191/gtb-pb191-underpf.jpg). Do they ever advance past the 1st position?

#17 3 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Have you experimented with the circuit in reply #9? That would be a good place to start.

AHA!!! There was a make switch on D that I've overlooked probably 4 times due to its position in the stack, it was bent such that it never broke on the bank reset - thank you!

Quoted from MarkG:

The Left and Right Target Scoring Units are steppers under the playfield in the back (see: https://gottliebpin.com/archive/GTB-Ref/191/gtb-pb191-underpf.jpg). Do they ever advance past the 1st position?

These never advance past 0, I've serviced the steppers themselves but the not the roto-target that should advance them yet - I'm going to do that now that the game is cycling balls properly

#18 3 months ago

Quick update - no change when servicing roto-target.

Best I can gather rolling over the rollovers are also supposed to score targets and none of them work for either side

If I manually trigger L1 and P1 the target and win mechanics work

Traced this back to the H relay- after test jumpering it started qorking so I cleaned and now that working

I've noticed if the roto-target isn't perfectly on a number it defaults to 15 so I gotta do a proper service on that to ensure it's landing correctly otherwise I think I'm pretty good for now! Thanks everyone for your help!

#19 3 months ago

OK hopefully one last weird issue I've been banging my head against a wall on -

When you light up both the left and right target numbers, if the right target is higher it should give you a free ball

This works if I set the right target first, but if I set the left target first it just resets as if the left target was higher

Not sure where to take this one

#20 3 months ago
Quoted from Arkate:

OK hopefully one last weird issue I've been banging my head against a wall on -
When you light up both the left and right target numbers, if the right target is higher it should give you a free ball
This works if I set the right target first, but if I set the left target first it just resets as if the left target was higher
Not sure where to take this one

following this I’m having the exact same issue on my flipper clown

#21 3 months ago
Quoted from Arkate:

When you light up both the left and right target numbers, if the right target is higher it should give you a free ball
This works if I set the right target first, but if I set the left target first it just resets as if the left target was higher

This is a pretty cool circuit that I haven't studied before. I need to spend some more quality time with it to grok it.
Flipper Clown W relay (resized).jpg
But I think the key is the W/Win relay coil in the upper left. That should fire to award an extra ball before the Left and Right Scoring Units reset. There are two ways to fire that relay coil. One is through a switch on the P2/Right Target Scoring relay which fires when the right side is being awarded. The other is through a pair of wipers on the Right Target Scoring Unit that complete the circuit when the unit is between steps 3 and 15.

When you set the left target first, it's the circuit through the P2/Right Target Scoring relay switch that must complete to fire the W relay once the right side has done its thing. If that never works I'd start by checking the P2 relay switch in the red box.

EDIT: The P2 relay switch on the lower right would be the next thing to check. Both P2 relay switches need to close to fire the W/Win relay when the left target is set first.

#22 3 months ago
Quoted from MarkG:

This is a pretty cool circuit that I haven't studied before. I need to spend some more quality time with it to grok it.

This is the most interesting circuit I've studied in a while. It's a unique problem and a very clever way of solving it. (More) Kudos to Mr. Neyens.

For those who aren't familiar, there are two columns of lights on the playfield (left and right). Hitting the Roto Targets or appropriate rollovers will turn on one light in each column. Once both columns have one light on the game will award an added ball if the light in the right column has a higher value than the light in the left column, then both columns will be reset.

It's common and relatively easy to determine if two things are "equal" with circuitry. Most games have a match circuit for example that awards a replay if a digit of the score matches (or equals) the position of a hidden stepper.

What's unique in this situation is that the game must evaluate a "greater than" function which is more complicated and interesting than an "equal to" function. To explain how that's done I've simplified the schematic above and animated it.

In the first animation both columns of lights start in their reset positions as shown in the schematic above and the left Roto Target is hit while 7 is showing. The result is that the Left Target Scoring Unit takes seven steps:
Left side first part 1.gif
Note that the Left Target Scoring Unit has two pairs of wipers that move together as the unit advances. Also note that the L2/Left Target Scoring relay is active while the Left Target Scoring Unit advances which closes the two L2 switches in red.

The second animation picks up where the first animation left off. The left column has the #7 light on and the right Roto Target is hit while a 12 is showing. In this case a ball should be added. To achieve this the W/Win relay in the upper left corner must be active when the advancing stops.
Left side first part 2.gif
The P2/Right Target Scoring relay is active while the Right Target Scoring Unit is advancing which closes the two P2 switches in red. When the Right Target Scoring Unit steps to position 8 (which is one greater than the Left Target Scoring Unit at postion 7), a circuit is completed that fires the W/Win relay as shown in red. When it steps to position 9, the circuit to the W/Win relay is broken, but the W/Win relay Lock In circuit in red keeps the W/Win relay active. The Right Target Scoring Unit continues stepping to position 12.

In this scenario (when the left column light is set first) the Right Target Scoring Unit is essentially compared to the Left Target Scoring Unit at each step as it advances to position 12. The Left Target Scoring Unit has a 2nd wiper that points to the position one higher than the current Left Target position (8 in this case) and once the Right Target Scoring Unit reaches it a circuit the the W/Win relay is completed.

#23 3 months ago

The other scenario (when the right column light is set first) is even more interesting. In this animation both light columns/Scoring Units are reset and the right Roto Target is hit while an 8 is showing so the Right Target Scoring Unit takes 8 steps.
Right side first part 1.gif
Note that the P2/Right Target Scoring relay switches in red close while the Right Target Scoring Unit advances although they have no effect in this situation (when the right side sets first).

The second animation starts with the Right Target Scoring Unit in position 8 when the left Roto Target is hit while an 11 is showing. In this situation no ball should be added since the right side (8) is not greater than the left side (11).
Right side first part 2.gif
But surprisingly, when the Left Target Scoring Unit takes its 1st step to position 1, it completes a circuit that fires the W/Win relay. The Lock In Circuit in red holds the W/Win relay active while the Left Target Scoring Unit takes more steps.

But when the Left Target Scoring Unit reaches position 8, which is equal to the Right Target Scoring Unit, it completes a circuit which activtes the O/Left Target Lose relay. The O/Left Target Lose relay in turn opens a switch in the W/Win relay Lock In circuit which allows the W/Win relay to relax. By the time the Left Target Scoring Unit reaches its last step the W/Win relay is inactive even though it activated briefly during the steps up.

The circuit essentially assumes that a ball should be added (by firing the W/Win relay) and looks for the condition that would invalidate that assumption (if the O/Left Target Lose relay fires).

To make it even more interesting note that the Left and Right Target Scoring Units wired back to back are used to fire two different relays (W/Win and O/Left Target Lose) by using the L2/Left Target Scoring relay and P2/Right Target Scoring relay switches to direct which relay is using the Scoring Units.

#24 3 months ago

Thanks for explaining that circuit, Mark - fascinating reading.

#25 87 days ago

Like paulace writes, your explaination is a great insight into how the game works. As my flipper clown doesn't function correctly due to repair hacks, l now know the 'red'and 'white' columns advanced via the roto target aswell as the roll over switches and what the 'win' relay does. l wondered if this type of 'greater than' was used on any other gottlieb em's?.
Another thing l've wondered about this game and others is what came first the playfield layout or the rules set.
l listen to a lot of music and l always wonder if such a song was lyric lead and then put to music or the other way around, this thought applies to pinballs machines.

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