I've got these left over from when I replaced the set on my WH20. I'll send 'em to you for the price of postage if yours are in worse shape.
20141016_204129.jpgQuoted from swampfire:Actually I did restore a WH2O, so maybe you don't know so much. I paid $1800 for a disassembled game. I added new mountains and new ramps for about $500, and eventually sold it for what I had in it (no charge for my labor).
The question here is: what will it take to get the OP's game from its current condition to the condition he expected? I'm sure he didn't expect new ramps and mountains for $4250. And yes, I was an idiot to sell mine for $2300 - rub it in if you like.
PF set alone was 900 bucks and I don't know where you got a ramp set and boulders for 5 bills.
I guess I don't know much about WH2O, I only restored 2 of them and designed the boulder protectors.
Quoted from tracelifter:PF set alone was 900 bucks and I don't know where you got a ramp set and boulders for 5 bills.
I guess I don't know much about WH2O, I only restored 2 of them and designed the boulder protectors.
WtF are you talking about? 10 years ago you could find reasonably priced ramps and boulders. I don't know what a "PF set" is, but my playfield was fine.
Playfield set as in upper and lower.
Mine wasn't fine but for 1000 bucks for the base game in 2012 it was worth the time and money.
If you paid 18 hundred 10 years ago for a basket case you paid way too much.
Quoted from Leeb18509:I've got these left over from when I replaced the set on my WH20. I'll send 'em to you for the price of postage if yours are in worse shape.
20141016_204129.jpg 169 KB
That is awesome and truly touching, things like this are what makes me happy to have found this community. I was able to track down a full new repro set of boulders for 90 bucks so I bought em but I can't tell you how awesome a gesture that is, you seriously made my night
Quoted from tracelifter:Playfield set as in upper and lower.
Mine wasn't fine but for 1000 bucks for the base game in 2012 it was worth the time and money.
If you paid 18 hundred 10 years ago for a basket case you paid way too much.
No, mine wasn't a basket case. It had a very nice playfield and cab, and when I was done with it, it was damned near perfect. I passed along my hard work to the next guy for free, because that's what we did back then.
Quoted from Damon:That is awesome and truly touching, things like this are what makes me happy to have found this community. I was able to track down a full new repro set of boulders for 90 bucks so I bought em but I can't tell you how awesome a gesture that is, you seriously made my night
No problem. Glad you found some new ones. You can't mix and match original and repro anyway so a whole set is nice to have either way. Nice looking game room you got there...
Quoted from swampfire:Will it really cost $1000 to fix it up? Roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty, it's good for the soul.
He wasn't paying more to get a project.
It sucks when you spend extra time and money to try and find one that you are assured is in great shape, no issues, minor wear and you end up with a project anyway. What they take from you is your free time. Time that you could spend playing the pinball you thought you were getting, or spending time with your family or working a second job (to pay for you pinball habit
If you want to sell overpriced pins, fine, if you want to get more from a noob because you can, fine. But to sell someone something that you don't have and give them junk instead, That's bullshit.
I will never buy one I don't play first unless it's a project or I know their reputation. I know that's not possible depending on where you live, but if you can, find someone local or take a road trip.
I've had bad transaction experiences as well. I think we've all had them at some point. Hope it gets resolved within a reasonable amount of time. I thought mine was over until just recently. People are out to better themselves and could care less how many people they hurt in the process.
Quoted from Damon:That is awesome and truly touching, things like this are what makes me happy to have found this community. I was able to track down a full new repro set of boulders for 90 bucks so I bought em but I can't tell you how awesome a gesture that is, you seriously made my night
great stuff... happy to hear, and thanks for sharing.
going by his profile, says hes been on pinside in the last day .... probably checking this thread out.
You seem like a really good guy. I do have the utmost respect for you and the way you are handling this.
But I can't let this go without voicing a strong disagreement:
Quoted from Damon:Its felony wire transfer fraud, sentencing can be as strict as 20 years in federal prison. Idk if im going to report it though, I dont know if I'd be okay with ruining someone's life over the condition of a pinball machine
First of all *you* would not be ruining this guy's life over the condition of a pinball machine. *HE* would have ruined his life over the condition of a pinball machine. 100% responsibility is his, 0% yours. And you have already given him opportunity to correct the situation, without getting the law involved. He refused.
What you would be doing is helping protect others, from this guy committing future acts of criminal fraud. I understand that from your viewpoint that you don't want to feel responsible for anything that could happen to him (despite that he did it entirely to himself, and then told you to "f*** off" when you addressed the fact of his fraud). That viewpoint is respectable, but misguided.
We need to maintain a list of scum bag sellers like this guy, Gary Valentine in NJ, and all others that misrepresent the condition of the machines they sell so they can intentionally screw customers. Valentine does this continously on E bay, and always pushes to move the sale off e-bay leaving the buyer with little recourse.
Quoted from kirkgun:You seem like a really good guy. I do have the utmost respect for you and the way you are handling this.
But I can't let this go without voicing a strong disagreement:First of all *you* would not be ruining this guy's life over the condition of a pinball machine. *HE* would have ruined his life over the condition of a pinball machine. 100% responsibility is his, 0% yours. And you have already given him opportunity to correct the situation, without getting the law involved. He refused.
What you would be doing is helping protect others, from this guy committing future acts of criminal fraud. I understand that from your viewpoint that you don't want to feel responsible for anything that could happen to him (despite that he did it entirely to himself, and then told you to "f*** off" when you addressed the fact of his fraud). That viewpoint is respectable, but misguided.
Thank you for your kind words. I took a lot of what you said to heart and the point of this thread was to protect other people. In all of thisI realize that responsibility to do more, so i called the police this morning and filed a report. Ill contact Craig's list and eBay as well this week and alert them to this guy with an attached incident report number from the police
I applaud you for this move and I think that's the right move. Fraud is so abundance because there are very few people that act in fraudulent ways that are held accountable. Only way for things to get better is for people to see that people will be held accountable for there actions if those actions are illegal.
Anyone PM him to alert him to this thread? I'm anxious to hear his take on this.
....although any longtime Pinsider can easily guess, hence the thread title.
Quoted from PismoArcade:Anyone PM him to alert him to this thread? I'm anxious to hear his take on this.
....although any longtime Pinsider can easily guess, hence the thread title.
I don't recall him posting much unless he had something for sale.
The main question is, has anyone informed Choggard?
its all verbal, your not going to win, just waste attorney money, always email with detailed questions about the purchase, with anything you buy key parts being there or areas that are a concern whether its a pin, car, or whatever make sure all are answered by email first with hi res photo's of all items and places of concern......... then make the phone call and get a feel about the seller ........just that little voice of been there done that...I have the shirt from it, a very expensive shirt at that!.
emails stating things are perfect and then not, you have a leg to stand on.
peace, B.
OP:
Before I go see a pin, let alone buy it sight unseen (which I won't do), I ask for many pics.. and then I blow them up on my computer and compare to other pics of the same pin on IPMD. I sometimes spot missing parts. Once I spotted a missing lamp board from under the playfield.
Basically I fine-tooth-comb the seller's pics.
You're learning a very valuable lesson here. Not everyone is straight and honest.
Sorry you're learning the hard way. Just try to get past it, throw a little money towards the Wh20 and try to chalk it up to a learning experience.
Shame on the seller. Like someone above mentioned, I'd be en route to his house now.
I would never buy anything ,much less a pin without seeing it first unless I totally knew the person or someone vouched for that person.
If you take a look at his profile he has only participated/started 2 posts... The second one where he participated was started by Choggard!
Thanks everyone for the advice, a lot of this is new to me and I will definitely heed the advice given from here on out. I spoke to the police and they said that the only recourse is a civil suit, essentially we agreed on a pin and he sent me a pin so the condition is not covered from a legal aspect. If we agreed on a pin and he failed to send it or sent a different item then listed it would be criminal fraud, as it sits its not a crime just sort of a jerk move. Im obviously not going to pursue a lawsuit so it looks like thats it. All good though and im not upset, I learned a lot from all of this and now am sort of excited in a geeky way to make this game look nice and learn how to fix up a machine. Thanks to everyone who messaged me similar stories and tried to help it, at the end of the day I wish it didn't happen but thank you for making me feel better about the whole situation
Unfortunately, my first purchase was similar although lower costs. The problem is these people know they can get away with it, so it will always continue. Like you, I sucked it up and took the experience as a learning adventure. Not just for future buying but for me to learn how to make repairs to the game I had bought.
That said, spread the word about the seller, I did. Its the only recourse to help others.
Quoted from swampfire:If it makes you feel better, I was totally screwed on my second game (Space Station), and now it's the gem of my collection. It took a lot of work to get it there, but every time I found another problem I added to my mental list of things I'd always check out in the future.
Good attitude. I think you'll always find secrets in a machine -- unexpected chipped/cracked ramps, touch ups you didn't notice, screws in inappropriate places, non-working/out of the way bulb sockets, playfield wear in hard to spot areas. Difficulty spotting some of these things in an initial inspection is only compounded if you can't physically inspect the machine.
The only thing that will avoid secrets (I think) is experience of inspecting machines (or bringing a backup who isn't emotionally invested).
If you can't get your money back, just own it and make it the best Whitewater ever!
Blacklist for sure, maybe somehow flag his Craigslist/ebay ads each time (takes someone watching for them though), so that maybe he runs out of options to post his crap.
Tim
Bummer. I was hoping that you had some kind of documentation to show his misrepresentation of the game (blatant misrepresentation) for the wire fraud.
Good on you, OP. As crappy as the thing is that started it off, there have been a few things said by you, and offered from others in this thread that should give us all a little hope in humanity, still.
I have bought 3 games from Kevin in the past and still have 2 of them. I am in noway shape or form defending him. I only bought games I could see in person to point out the problems with them and work on a price which has been successful every trip. He has no idea how to work on games just does a quick shop job and throws in some pbl leds and calls them good. It does blow my mind that he somehow always seem to have a list machines. Sorry about your deal.
Quoted from mario_1_up:I have bought 3 games from Kevin in the past and still have 2 of them. . He has no idea how to work on games
Thats funny, because he posts in the local craigslist that he can work on pins.
Never hesitate to ask for references Damon. In this case your inbox would have been flooded. I have fished for info in the past on deals I have made and most of the time feedback is exchanged through private e-mails and not in the forum.
I personally have never had any personal interaction with said seller, but I have not heard too many good things. Best case you would want someone to check stuff out before you bought something from this fellow. Sorry for the experience though. Sooner or later the wrong guy will get burned and then we will read about it in the news.
Quoted from joemamma:I've got a clearcoated pf for sale if you are interested.
ck
Thank you for the offer but the playfield is actually pretty nice, there's a tiny bit if wear in the shooter lane but not enough to bother me. Had a friend come to help me work on it a bit today and I got my audio issue tackled! No more crackly speakers, yay! Big foot cave switch is next on my project list, gonna try to work on that tomorrow but as it stands I have a 96 percent functional wh20, which is 96 percent more wh20 than I had last week
Quoted from paragon66x:Never hesitate to ask for references Damon. In this case your inbox would have been flooded. I have fished for info in the past on deals I have made and most of the time feedback is exchanged through private e-mails and not in the forum
This is excellent advice and something I'd never thought of doing, thank you for the tip
Post edited by Damon: Crappy spelling
I learned this lesson too on my first couple pins. Thankfully it my first 2 weren't all that expensive.
We see it over and over on in this hobby; one person's view of "like new" is typically very different than another.
Then again, some people put the almighty dollar ahead of honesty.
No replacement for first hand inspection...
I love the idea of asking for people's feedback on sellers. As posted above, some people will not post their opinion of others in a public forum but would be happy to send it privately, good or bad.
We should start a sub forum where people can ask for other pinheads to go inspect a machine that someone remote is looking to buy. This will still not 100% solve the problem as the "inspectors" hot buttons may not be the same as yours but at least is would be a 3rd party assessment...
Personally, if he is using CL, I would put a RE: whatever he has listed ad, and post a warning about this guy.. I have done it in the past, and got several thank you reply's from people for saving them trips and mistakes..
Quoted from tracelifter:Roll a ball through the BF cave and see if that clears the error.
You have to light him up with the Hot Foot targets then get the ball past him while he is spinning if this doesn't happen in X amount of games that switch throws an error.
Thanks, this was the first thing I tried, no luck
He called me and I told him to send the game back, and I would refund the money, he didn't want to. I offered to buy him a new ramp. He said okay. Then he called back later and complained about the 2 locks, and I said I would send 2 locks. He asked for $100.00 to begin with then it went up to $600.00. Someone from Ohio called and said they were going to get me for wire fraud. My attorney called him and they answered the phone then hung up. Later called back and went to a woman's voicemail. My lawyer said this kid was a "puke." He got exactly what he bought. Pictures were exchanged. I offered to buy the game back. He wouldn't do it, so what else can I do. My lawyer said he was trying to extort me. I offered to buy a new ramp and locks. If anyone has any questions about this please give me a call. Kevin 309-631-7136. If I could find him boulders I would get them too. The game was in great condition when it left my house. I sell games all the time, I don't sell junk.
Quoted from oldpinballer:The game was in great condition when it left my house.
I've seen this game and I get the impression you misrepresented it. Did you tell him it had cracked boulders? Cracked ramps? Incorrect standup targets? Stripped screws? There was a big rubber completely missing on the upper playfield. Did you mention that?
Damon is partially at fault, but I suspect you're more at fault. If you're going to sell to home buyers at the prices you're asking, you need to disclose everything. If you think you're not at fault, these kind of things will keep happening to you. Count on it.
Quoted from oldpinballer:He called me and I told him to send the game back, and I would refund the money, he didn't want to. I offered to buy him a new ramp. He said okay. Then he called back later and complained about the 2 locks, and I said I would send 2 locks. He asked for $100.00 to begin with then it went up to $600.00. Someone from Ohio called and they were going to get me for wire fraud. My attorney called him and they answered the phone then hung up. Later called back and went to a woman's voicemail. My lawyer said this kid was a "puke." He got exactly what he bought. Pictures were exchanged. I offered to buy the game back. He wouldn't do it, so what else can I do. My lawyer said he was trying to extort me. I offered to buy a new ramp and locks. If anyone has any questions about this please give me a call. Kevin 309-631-7136. If I could find him boulders I would get them too. The game was in great condition when it left my house. I sell games all the time, I don't sell junk.
None of this is true, he called me yesterday by mistake i assume, i missed the call and when i called back he said, "i didnt call you, if you have anything else to say direct it to my lawyer." I asked for his lawyers phone number and he hung up on me. if youre truly willing to take it back ill call you in an hour and set up payment to have the game returned, ill donate the extra parts i bought on pinside
Quoted from oldpinballer:The game was in great condition when it left my house. I sell games all the time, I don't sell junk.
Really? but you "volunteered" in the same post to buy a new ramp, locks and boulders if you could find them!
That certainly implies you knew it needed work and didn't mention it.
Quoted from Damon:None of this is true, he called me yesterday by mistake i assume, i missed the call and when i called back he said, "i didnt call you, if you have anything else to say direct it to my lawyer." I asked for his lawyers phone number and he hung up on me. if youre truly willing to take it back ill call you in an hour and set up payment to have the game returned, ill donate the extra parts i bought on pinside
Tried to call but no response, left a text stating that I wanted to return the machine. For the time being im going to work on it and try to get into better shape than he sent it to me in. If he ends up returning the money hopefully i can gove him back a truly fully functional machine. I had told seller it would be 600 to fix everything hidden about it, if anyone is curious about the breakdown thats what 4 ramps, a boulder set and a plastic set comes to roughly with shipping idk if he thought I was lying and trying to con him but its easily verified by checking bay area amusements. Ill update if I hear back from him; also related my speaker crackle is back
Has a positive ebay rating - for whatever that's worth. Only one sale in the past 6 months - otherwise a buyer.
Perhaps he'll buy it back for $8900....
quadcities.craigslist.org link
Hoping for positive results for the OP... get your refund and send it back!
Post edited by Misspent_Youth: wishing the OP success
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