(Topic ID: 287060)

Gorgar with 3 bridge rectifiers

By winmanwizard

3 years ago


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3rd bridge rectifier 2 (resized).jpg
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3rd bridge rectifier 1 (resized).jpg
#1 3 years ago

I've got a Gorgar machine with 3 bridge rectifiers. Two are located where they should be according to the schematics. Another one, it kinda looks like a later addition, is below the first two, has jumpers on it going from AC to AC and from + to -. The jumped AC's are wired to the far left fuse at the bottom end of the fuse, and the jumped + and - are wired to the transformer. When I test the diodes, it reads all zeros. I don't know why it's there and was wondering if anybody has seen this before. Is it there for a reason? Should I leave it or remove it?

#3 3 years ago

Here are some pics of the 3rd. rectifier. You can see the unusual wire array that comes off of it. Has anybody seen this arrangement before and know why it's even on the machine?

3rd bridge rectifier 1 (resized).jpg3rd bridge rectifier 1 (resized).jpg3rd bridge rectifier 2 (resized).jpg3rd bridge rectifier 2 (resized).jpg3rd bridge rectifier 3 (resized).jpg3rd bridge rectifier 3 (resized).jpg
#4 3 years ago

This is a long shot, but I think I remember Ed from GPE saying some did that to reduce the voltage on the dc due to the voltage drop across the diodes. The thread was within the last year, but I couldn’t find it.

#5 3 years ago

I haven't seen that one before. Hopefully someone can help you out. Hopefully it betters the machine some how. Interesting

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from Billc479:

I think I remember Ed from GPE saying some did that to reduce the voltage on the dc due to the voltage drop across the diodes. The thread was within the last year, but I couldn’t find it.

Maybe to lower the DC voltage because where the game was located the line voltage was significantly above 117v? Since you can high tap it if the line voltage is too far below 117 but as far as I could see there isn't a 'low tap' if it's too high?
I saw someone mention "I added the additional bridge rectifiers as per Vid's guide' regarding a System 6 but I couldn't find it in the guide either, maybe they were actually talking about adding the extra fuses or something else.

#7 3 years ago

vid1900 definitely said we were supposed to curse the previous owner when we have to desolder the spade leads on bridge rectifiers to add fuses to the AC power lines

#8 3 years ago

Another system 6 in here had a third bridge rectifier added, it was surmised it *may* have been to rectify the GI to make the lamps dimmer and last longer. But can't really see the entire new circuit from the pics for that one or this one here. Might be different purposes for a third one.

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from winmanwizard:

I've got a Gorgar machine with 3 bridge rectifiers. Two are located where they should be according to the schematics. Another one, it kinda looks like a later addition, is below the first two, has jumpers on it going from AC to AC and from + to -. The jumped AC's are wired to the far left fuse at the bottom end of the fuse, and the jumped + and - are wired to the transformer. When I test the diodes, it reads all zeros. I don't know why it's there and was wondering if anybody has seen this before. Is it there for a reason? Should I leave it or remove it?

Is something broken or not working? I live by the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it motto”

#10 3 years ago

That was a mod that Williams issued a service bulletin for. Reducing voltage on certain lamps IIRC as they were burning out like crazy on location. Not sure what changed requiring this. Guessing the game transformer though.

To verify, you can always remove a couple of the wires and see what no longer works on the machine.

And remember, "Gorgar says: Wait until I stop talking before inserting coins".

#11 3 years ago

Yeah the yellow-green wire from the extra BR goes to the GI fuse.

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Yeah the yellow-green wire from the extra BR goes to the GI fuse.

Thank you to everybody who has offered some suggestions with this. Please note that I have never done anything like this before, so if I ask a lot of questions, have patience.
Frenchy...are you suggesting that I disconnect the yellow/green wire from the fuse? Will that mean that that fuse will no longer be connected to anything or should another connection be made in its place?

Quoted from alexanr1:

Is something broken or not working? I live by the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it motto”

The machine functioned without voice but did have the heart beat up to the time that I parked it in my basement 20 years ago. I decided it was time to revive Gorgar, but now I have no sound at all and the machine will play only 2.5 games before the scores go black and the bumpers and flippers stop functioning. The back lights and playfield light continue to remain on. Shutting the game off and restarting brings it back only very briefly. It seems that when it gets warm, something fails...caps, IC's, resistors (?)
I was made aware of a service bulletin fix (SS20) by "Stratdoc" that addresses a grounding issue and I haven't tackled that yet. And, with the help of Trk12fire, I've been trying to narrow down the location of the fail by disconnecting various boards to see if it impacts on how the game reacts. So far, it seems it may be the MPU or power board. I haven't begun to address the sound issue.
I was hoping that this 3rd. rectifier might be putting a glitch on the machine that causes all these problems but it seems less and less likely to me.

#13 3 years ago

I have not seen a third rectifier before either. It does appear to be unrelated to the rest of the game's problems. To get a better handle on getting your machine up and running you can try these free test ROMs:

https://pincoder.ca

They were originally designed on Gorgar and can be used to be used in-game. Experts and Novice users have reported they found them very useful. By themselves, they require the use of a chip programmer and EPROM chips. However you can order a complete adapter board that can be plugged directly into your MPU board right out of the box:

https://pincoder.ca/index.php/2020/07/10/adapter-2020-06-23-0506/

You can also follow these pinside threads to see what issues others have experienced with their games:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-williams-system-6-in-game-test-roms
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-pincoder-adapter

Feel free to post your questions there too

#14 3 years ago

that 3rd bridge rectifier is purely to drop a couple of volts from the supply for your general illumination.

it is not acting as a rectifier at all and staying AC.

up to you, but you could safely remove the yellow wire from the negative of the bridge and attach it back to lower terminal of the fuse holder where the yellow/green wire is that comes from the lower lug, the AC input on the bridge.

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

that 3rd bridge rectifier is purely to drop a couple of volts from the supply for your general illumination.
it is not acting as a rectifier at all and staying AC.

Agree. The way that is wired, you have 2 diodes pointing in alternate directions inline with the AC transformer. Each diode pair removes their Forward Voltage of about .7 volts for a typical rectifier diode on each swing of the AC cycle for a total of 1.4V removed from the 6V GI circuit.

If what MrBally said is right and it was a service bulletin, I suspect Williams had a batch of transformers that were wound incorrectly and creates too much voltage on the GI winding.

Alternative theory could be that someone wanted to hi-tap the transformer to spice up the coils and needed to reduce the GI voltage to stop bulbs from blowing. This can be confirmed by checking which terminals are connected on the transformer.

In either case, removing that rectifier will only serve to burn out your GI bulbs faster.

#16 3 years ago

pincoder, Rikoshay and Schwaggs....Thanks for all those replies, suggestions and info. I think I'll leave that extra BR where it is. I'll also check out the links and those test Roms.

#17 3 years ago

You could try measuring the GI voltage and confirm it is actually low with the rectifier in place.

Stock is 6.3V AC. With the rectifier in there, you should be seeing around 4.9V. If that the case, you could safely remove it.

Meter on AC. One lead on the junction terminal to the left of the row of fuses and the other lead on the left-most fuse.

#18 3 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

You could try measuring the GI voltage and confirm it is actually low with the rectifier in place.
Stock is 6.3V AC. With the rectifier in there, you should be seeing around 4.9V. If that the case, you could safely remove it.
Meter on AC. One lead on the junction terminal to the left of the row of fuses and the other lead on the left-most fuse.

I may have misread your post, and it's not a criticism, just an observation, but to check the AC voltage prior to bridge, wouldn't you remove the fast blow GI fuse and put one lead on the yellow wire where it joins the negative on the bridge and the other lead on the other yellow wire from the transformer at the far left junction tag?

and to measure the reduced voltage swap the multi meter lead from the bridge to the bottom of the fuse holder where the green/yellow wire is?

please correct me where i'm wrong as I'm always learning.

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

I may have misread your post, and it's not a criticism, just an observation, but to check the AC voltage prior to bridge, wouldn't you remove the fast blow GI fuse and put one lead on the yellow wire where it joins the negative on the bridge and the other lead on the other yellow wire from the transformer at the far left junction tag?
and to measure the reduced voltage swap the multi meter lead from the bridge to the bottom of the fuse holder where the green/yellow wire is?
please correct me where i'm wrong as I'm always learning.

Yes, if you want to measure the voltage before the bridge (raw transformer output) you would put one lead on the far left junction and the other on the + and - terminals of the bridge (where the other transformer wire leads).

To measure after the bridge, you would have one lead on the far left junction terminal and the other on the left fuse with it in place.

Both measurements taken with the fuse in place. This way you measure the loaded voltage (the circuit is loaded by the strings of GI bulbs) which is an accurate representation of what the bulbs are seeing. If you remove the fuse, the GI bulbs are not connected and you will be measuring the open circuit voltage which will always be higher than the loaded and may not tell the true story.

#20 3 years ago

Here's what I did (just to confirm I'm doing it right). I placed one lead on the junction terminal and the other lead on the left-most fuse. I'm reading 6.1 and that's with the rectifier in. Am I not supposed to be getting 4.9? Does that mean that the 3rd. rectifier isn't doing anything OR does that mean there's something afoot with the factory installed rectifiers?

#21 3 years ago

So...out of curiousity, I put one lead on the junction and the other lead on the + terminal of the added BR. It came in at 7.0. I have no idea what this tells me. Schwagg, perhaps you can let me know if this is good, bad or otherwise.

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from winmanwizard:

Here's what I did (just to confirm I'm doing it right). I placed one lead on the junction terminal and the other lead on the left-most fuse. I'm reading 6.1 and that's with the rectifier in. Am I not supposed to be getting 4.9? Does that mean that the 3rd. rectifier isn't doing anything OR does that mean there's something afoot with the factory installed rectifiers?

4.9vac would be presuming the transformer was outputting 6.3vac and somebody wanted to bring it down. Its likely your GI circuit without the diodes would be 7.7vac and too high for the bulbs - which is why this was done in the first place.

6.1vac is perfectly fine for general illumination and I would just leave this circuit alone

#23 3 years ago

Also, Schwaggs is a better tech than me so if he tells you different then ignore my advice completely

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from winmanwizard:

Here's what I did (just to confirm I'm doing it right). I placed one lead on the junction terminal and the other lead on the left-most fuse. I'm reading 6.1 and that's with the rectifier in. Am I not supposed to be getting 4.9? Does that mean that the 3rd. rectifier isn't doing anything OR does that mean there's something afoot with the factory installed rectifiers?

That confirms that your transformer is outputting too much voltage (7.0 when it should be 6.3). Boscokid is correct in that the 4.9 reading is what I would expect if your transformer was outputting normal voltage of 6.3. Not sure why it's reading 6.1 instead of 7.0-1.4=5.6v. It might have to do with the quality of your meter (AC is tricky to measure and is varies from meter to meter and brand to brand).

Can you check which terminals are connected on your transformer? Are there wires on terminals 3 or 4? How about 7 or 8?

4 and 8 are the typical 117V connection. 3 and 7 are the "hi tap" connection for areas with low voltage around 105V

#25 3 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

That confirms that your transformer is outputting too much voltage (7.0 when it should be 6.3). Boscokid is correct in that the 4.9 reading is what I would expect if your transformer was outputting normal voltage of 6.3. Not sure why it's reading 6.1 instead of 7.0-1.4=5.6v. It might have to do with the quality of your meter (AC is tricky to measure and is varies from meter to meter and brand to brand).
Can you check which terminals are connected on your transformer? Are there wires on terminals 3 or 4? How about 7 or 8?
4 and 8 are the typical 117V connection. 3 and 7 are the "hi tap" connection for areas with low voltage around 105V

Here's a picture of the transformer showing the connections.

IMG_20210208_123450_9 (resized).jpgIMG_20210208_123450_9 (resized).jpg
#26 3 years ago
Quoted from winmanwizard:

Here's a picture of the transformer showing the connections.
[quoted image]

Thanks!

That is not it. That transformer is wired for normal line conditions (not hi-tapped).

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Thanks!
That is not it. That transformer is wired for normal line conditions (not hi-tapped).

I have tested the two factory rectifiers and here're the readings that I got (I hope you can make sense out of how I've transcribed them):

On the Left Rectifier:
meter pos. placed on rectifier neg. with meter neg. placed on AC (top or bottom) = 475
m - to rec + with m + to AC (top or bottom) = 481
m + to rec. - with m - to rec. + = 434
reverse (+ to + and - to -) = 0

On the Right Recifier:
+ to - with - to AC (top or bottom) = 467,
- to + with + to AC (top or bottom) =470,
+ to - with - to + = 690
+ to + with - to - = 1202

I'm reading 119.8 volts coming out of my wall socket.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, these numbers for the rectifiers are completly screwy and both rectifiers need to be replaced. I'm also thinking that the 3rd. rectifier appears to be unnecessary and likely can be removed with no consequences.

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