Gorgar stops playing after it warms up

As very much a noob, I reflowed everything that looked hinky and a lot of things that didn't as well, but I won't guarantee my work at all. I THINK I did ok though. I did not replace or rebuid the 40 pin but DID reflow them also.

#4 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

IC 5 on the MPU appears to be badly corroded from battery acid fumes. I've tried cleaning the legs but, as Vid says, it's pretty much impossible to get behind them to do a proper job. So n
o doubt, I WILL have to replace it, but can this be the source of the overheating of the resistors and the cause of the game shutting down after it warms up?

#5 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

Quoted from Xenon75:
When you rebuilt the power board, did you also rebuild the essential connectors/reflow the solder to the header pins on the Power board and MPU? Also has the 40 pin interconnect been completely rebuilt as well?

I didn't rebuild the 40 pin, just reflowed it. Are you saying this is a likely cause of my problems (ie: the game stops playing and the playfield lights go dark once the machine heats up)? Somebody else suggested that the cause may be solved by following SERVICE BULLETIN SS 20 that was put out by Williams. With your experience, do you think that be the solution?

#6 3 years ago

CMS

Xenon75

Pinside member

11y 86,800 1,968

Yes I find that the 40 pin interconnect needs to be rebuilt/replaced on the female side a bare minimum and the male side if the pins are badly tarnished. Those resistors are for the lamp matrix and do get very hot which is normal and not the source of your game shutting down.

I would replace the IC and IC socket at IC5 if it has been corroded. That would be another possible source of your game shutdown issue. If you feel comfortable and are proficient in soldering you can do this yourself. If you are not (because these MPU's are delicate) you should send off the mpu and driver to a pro for a rebuild.

#7 3 years ago

CCN

pincoder

Do you get at least 12V at 1j2 pin 9? What about after it quits?

It needs 12v there otherwise the MPU board goes into a RESET state, and will not come back until 0.5 seconds after 12V is restored.

Also, download my pincoder software and read through the notes for each test. You may find something useful in there as to how things should work. If you want to run some diagnostic tests, there's an adapter available too from the menu at the top.

https://pincoder.ca

For now, just check that pin on 1J2 before and after it dies, and let us know what the result is

#8 3 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

Pinside+ Frequent

Grass Valley, CA

9y 85,050 2,408 14 49

I believe he's getting 10.6 at TP1 (12 volt unregulated).

#9 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

Quoted from pincoder:
Do you get at least 12V at 1j2 pin 9? What about after it quits?
It needs 12v there otherwise the MPU board goes into a RESET state, and will not come back until 0.5 seconds after 12V is restored.
Also, download my pincoder software and read through the notes for each test. You may find something useful in there as to how things should work. If you want to run some diagnostic tests, there's an adapter available too from the menu at the top.
https://pincoder.ca
For now, just check that pin on 1J2 before and after it dies, and let us know what the result is

So when I first turn the game on, the voltage at 1J2-9 is 10.65. When the playfield lights went off I read 10.59. A couple of minutes later the scoreboard went blank and all action on the playfield including the flippers stopped, and the voltage was 10.7.

#10 3 years ago

CCN

pincoder

OP
Quoted from winmanwizard:
So when I first turn the game on, the voltage at 1J2-9 is 10.65. When the playfield lights went off I read 10.59. A couple of minutes later the scoreboard went blank and all action on the playfield including the flippers stopped, and the voltage was 10.7.

By playfield lights are you referring to the gi lights or the lamp matrix lights?

I would think that when the blanking circuit takes over that all would go out at the same time, not a few minutes apart. The gi should always be lit, even if the blanking circuit takes over.

#11 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

I get a 10,75 reading at 3J6-6. That should read 12, no? I've rebuilt the power board with a kit from GPE but didn't replace the 5 volt regulator or C 14,16 & 17. At 3J1-10, 11 & 12, I'm getting 8.7, 8.7 & 0.0 respectively. According to the schematic, 3J1-12 is supposed to be at 9.3 C.T. I don't know what the ct stands for. Maybe I'm not doing the test correctly?

#12 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

Quoted from pincoder:
By playfield lights are you referring to the gi lights or the lamp matrix lights?
I would think that when the blanking circuit takes over that all would go out at the same time, not a few minutes apart. The gi should always be lit, even if the blanking circuit takes over.

Here's what the playfield looks like when it's off. I shielded the backboard to reduce glare.

IMG_20210312_114439_0 (resized).jpg

#13 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

And here's the machine after it stops playing. You can see that the scores are black, but the back lights are still on.

IMG_20210312_120141_0 (resized).jpg

#14 3 years ago

DAY

Roamin

Pinside member

Saint-hyacinthe, QC

3y 29,050 365 1

CT means center tap. That means it is meant to be read over 3 pins, the center pin (tap) giving half the voltage on each side. So 9.3v CT, should be 4.65 volts on both sides and 9.3v from pin 1 to pin 3. Also, center tap means it's coming from a transformer because it is the center of the winding that is tapped onto. Transformers are measured in AC voltage (wavy line on your meter).

#15 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

Quoted from Roamin:
CT means center tap. That means it is meant to be read over 3 pins, the center pin (tap) giving half the voltage on each side. So 9.3v CT, should be 4.65 volts on both sides and 9.3v from pin 1 to pin 3. Also, center tap means it's coming from a transformer because it is the center of the winding that is tapped onto. Transformers are measured in AC voltage (wavy line on your meter).

Thank you for getting back to me, but (ignoramous that I am) I still don't understand how I'm supposed to do this test. When I put my tester (with black on ground and red on pin 2) I get a reading of 0. This, of course, is nowhere near 4.65, so what am I doing wrong?

#16 3 years ago

RIK

Rikoshay

Pinside member

not sure if this helps any?

looking at the schematic i see the logic supply is 18.7 VAC CT

so 9.3VAC across pins 12 (the centre tap) & 11 and 9.3 VAC across pins 12 & 10.

both lines 10 and 11 are fused with 4A slow blows.

imo you should change C16 and C17, and assuming you did change C15.

the resistors you mention getting hot is normal, reading the guide by vid1900 is very helpful.

#17 3 years ago

JRR

Da-Shaker

Pinside+ Frequent

Grass Valley, CA

9y 85,050 2,408 14 49

If he's getting 3J6 - Pin 6 =10.6 VDC (a 12 volt connection). Doesn't this mean his problem is somewhere in-between the power board and wall socket? I think also C16 & 17 is a possibility, in addition to re-pinning his connections.

Question- if you replace the 5 volt regulator, will it increase the 12 volt?

Question- What is the function of IC5. Will this shutdown his machine, given it had corrosion or put him into 04 mode.

#18 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

Quoted from Rikoshay:
not sure if this helps any?
looking at the schematic i see the logic supply is 18.7 VAC CT
so 9.3VAC across pins 12 (the centre tap) & 11 and 9.3 VAC across pins 12 & 10.
both lines 10 and 11 are fused with 4A slow blows.
imo you should change C16 and C17, and assuming you did change C15.
the resistors you mention getting hot is normal, reading the guide by vid1900 is very helpful.

Thank you for your help. C15 has been changed but not 16 & 17 but are next on the to-do list along with C 8,12,&14. Do you think the 5 volt regulator should be replaced too?

#19 3 years ago

RIK

Rikoshay

Pinside member

i don't personally believe the 5V regulator needs replacing as you have stated your readings in #1 being 5.05VDC

#20 3 years ago

RIK

Rikoshay

Pinside member

Have you replaced diodes D7 & D8 with 6A 400V ones, or higher?

IC5 a 6820/6821 is a peripheral interface for the solenoids

Does the game shut down in 'attract mode', like after it boots up, without starting a game?

#21 3 years ago

RIK

Rikoshay

Pinside member

also with the power off, check all your coil diodes, including flippers. make sure they don't move and are soldered firmly in place.

or if in doubt replace them all, just a suggestion.

#22 3 years ago

CCN

pincoder

Sorry this post appears a bit late.. not sure why it was never sent..

OP
Quoted from winmanwizard:
And here's the machine after it stops playing. You can see that the scores are black, but the back lights are still on.
[quoted image]

Yes those are the General Illumination lights. They'll be on regardless if the blanking circuit takes over.

The blanking circuit is definitely taking over. It's either because the cpu chip crashed, and so the blanking took over, or the blanking circuit itself has an issue.

I would use the Pincoder tests to help narrow it down.

Also, I apologize for being a bit brief.. family matters to attend to today so I can't give you my full focus. All will be fine here, just need a few days... I'm glad the others are also on it

#23 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

Quoted from Rikoshay:
Have you replaced diodes D7 & D8 with 6A 400V ones, or higher?
IC5 a 6820/6821 is a peripheral interface for the solenoids
Does the game shut down in 'attract mode', like after it boots up, without starting a game?

D7 & 8 have been replaced with the "beefier" diodes as recommended by Vid. I've just turned the game on to see if it'll shut down with no action on it. I think it does but will be able to tell fer sher in about 20 minutes.

#24 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

Quoted from pincoder:
Sorry this post appears a bit late.. not sure why it was never sent..

Yes those are the General Illumination lights. They'll be on regardless if the blanking circuit takes over.
The blanking circuit is definitely taking over. It's either because the cpu chip crashed, and so the blanking took over, or the blanking circuit itself has an issue.
I would use the Pincoder tests to help narrow it down.
Also, I apologize for being a bit brief.. family matters to attend to today so I can't give you my full focus. All will be fine here, just need a few days... I'm glad the others are also on it

I appreciate anything anytime you can offer it. Good luck with family matters.

#25 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

Quoted from Rikoshay:
Have you replaced diodes D7 & D8 with 6A 400V ones, or higher?
IC5 a 6820/6821 is a peripheral interface for the solenoids
Does the game shut down in 'attract mode', like after it boots up, without starting a game?

So I turned the machine on and let it sit. After 14 minutes, it was still in attract mode but after 23 minutes it shut down the same way that it does when played. Didn't seem to be any sooner or later.

#26 3 years ago

RIK

Rikoshay

Pinside member

okay with the game 'dead' what is the output from the 5V regulator?

#27 3 years ago

RIK

Rikoshay

Pinside member

what is your line voltage?

#28 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

Quoted from Rikoshay:
okay with the game 'dead' what is the output from the 5V regulator?

You'll have to guide me through finding the votage on the 5 v. Remember I'm totally new at this.

#29 3 years ago

RIK

Rikoshay

Pinside member

all good

the same way tested the 5VDC in your first post, pins 7, 8, 9 & 10 on 3J6, top right hand side connector on power supply board.

red probe on 7, 8, 9, or 10 and black probe on 11, 12, 13 or 14 with multi meter set DC volts minimum 20V

#30 3 years ago

???

Kenbob1

Inactive member

Unknown

3y 1,250 2

Had the same issue, Gorgar temp in the back game hit 82 degrees and game would lock as described. Put in a PC fan in and it kept it cool enough to play. Sat idle for a couple years when I turned it on something burned and smelled and no life at all. One of those big resistors was burnt off completely. Sent boards to this place in Chicago. They didn’t touch the power board, all fixes on driver board including all of those big resistors and sockets for ICs.

This prob won’t help, but thought I’d relate. More on tracking driver board issues, will post elsewhere

#31 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

Quoted from Kenbob1:
Had the same issue, Gorgar temp in the back game hit 82 degrees and game would lock as described. Put in a PC fan in and it kept it cool enough to play. Sat idle for a couple years when I turned it on something burned and smelled and no life at all. One of those big resistors was burnt off completely. Sent boards to this place in Chicago. They didn’t touch the power board, all fixes on driver board including all of those big resistors and sockets for ICs.
This prob won’t help, but thought I’d relate. More on tracking driver board issues, will post elsewhere

Well. That's interesting. Thanks for the input.

#32 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

Quoted from Kenbob1:
Had the same issue, Gorgar temp in the back game hit 82 degrees and game would lock as described. Put in a PC fan in and it kept it cool enough to play. Sat idle for a couple years when I turned it on something burned and smelled and no life at all. One of those big resistors was burnt off completely. Sent boards to this place in Chicago. They didn’t touch the power board, all fixes on driver board including all of those big resistors and sockets for ICs.
This prob won’t help, but thought I’d relate. More on tracking driver board issues, will post elsewhere

I'd like to see your info on tracking driver board issues. Please let me know where you post.

#33 3 years ago

RIK

Rikoshay

Pinside member

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-bulletproofing-williams-system-6

it's well worth the read, covers driver board options

and

https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_3_-_7#Reducing_heat_by_replacing_the_TIP-42_lamp_drive_transistors_and_eliminating_the_27_ohm_current_limiting_resistors

#34 3 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

Quoted from Rikoshay:
it's well worth the read, covers driver board options
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-bulletproofing-williams-system-6
and
https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_3_-_7#Reducing_heat_by_replacing_the_TIP-42_lamp_drive_transistors_and_eliminating_the_27_ohm_current_limiting_resistors

I've used Vid's guide to rebuild my power board. He's very good.
I've also sent you an email with the numbers that I got the other day. Let me know what you think they mean.
I also mentioned, in the email, a local guy that I've been talking to. He also suggested the heat reducing fix that you've given me a link to. I didn't want to get into that fix until I traced the source of the problem. I thought I'd come back to changing the resistors after that. He, too, suggested cooling the backboard with a fan as a temporary fix, as did Kenbob1. Additionally, he recommended swapping out the original incadescent lights with LED's just to keep the backboard cooler.

#35 3 years ago

RIK

Rikoshay

Pinside member

you can also use #47 globes instead of #44's if you want that look

1 month later

#36 2 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice

So, here I am, a month after my last post and still not much closer to a solution to my problem with my Gorgar machine. So far, I've pretty much rebuilt the entire Power Board, have replaced the male pins on the 40 Pin Connector and replaced the big purple resistors (R 149-156) on the Driver Board. The game still stops playing and about 16 minutes with the game displays going black and the flippers ceasing to function. The other day, though, the game functioned for 30 minutes with no problems before I had to leave and shut the game down myself.

Is it coincidental that the game behaves exactly like it does when I do step 1 of the diagnostic procedure? Is it possible that the problem I'm having is somehow related to either a mechanical or electronic problem with the Diagnostic Process Switch? I DO have corrosion from battery leakage on IC 5 on the MPU. Is this integrated circuit somehow related to the Diagnostic Switch and, thus, responsible for this glitch?

Any suggestions are appreciated.

#37 2 years ago

TOM

Tomass

Pinside member

Wasilla, AK

6y 98,350 3,831 17

OP
Quoted from winmanwizard:
So, here I am, a month after my last post and still not much closer to a solution to my problem with my Gorgar machine. So far, I've pretty much rebuilt the entire Power Board, have replaced the male pins on the 40 Pin Connector and replaced the big purple resistors (R 149-156) on the Driver Board. The game still stops playing and about 16 minutes with the game displays going black and the flippers ceasing to function. The other day, though, the game functioned for 30 minutes with no problems before I had to leave and shut the game down myself.
Is it coincidental that the game behaves exactly like it does when I do step 1 of the diagnostic procedure? Is it possible that the problem I'm having is somehow related to either a mechanical or electronic problem with the Diagnostic Process Switch? I DO have corrosion from battery leakage on IC 5 on the MPU. Is this integrated circuit somehow related to the Diagnostic Switch and, thus, responsible for this glitch?
Any suggestions are appreciated.

I would replace the sockets on the MPU. My FP2 was overheating the lamp resistors due to the mpu locking up. Sockets fixed that. Now I replace all headers, the 40 pin and all sockets as soon as I get a williams older than sys 9.

#38 2 years ago

CCN

pincoder

https://pincoder.ca/index.php/2020/07/10/adapter-2020-06-23-0506/

OP
Quoted from winmanwizard:
So, here I am, a month after my last post and still not much closer to a solution to my problem with my Gorgar machine. So far, I've pretty much rebuilt the entire Power Board, have replaced the male pins on the 40 Pin Connector and replaced the big purple resistors (R 149-156) on the Driver Board. The game still stops playing and about 16 minutes with the game displays going black and the flippers ceasing to function. The other day, though, the game functioned for 30 minutes with no problems before I had to leave and shut the game down myself.
Is it coincidental that the game behaves exactly like it does when I do step 1 of the diagnostic procedure? Is it possible that the problem I'm having is somehow related to either a mechanical or electronic problem with the Diagnostic Process Switch? I DO have corrosion from battery leakage on IC 5 on the MPU. Is this integrated circuit somehow related to the Diagnostic Switch and, thus, responsible for this glitch?
Any suggestions are appreciated.

Its doubtful the diagnostic switch has anything to do with it. You should replace IC5 (and socket it if it hasnt already been done). It sounds like the blanking circuit is kicking out at various times, either because the blanking circuit itself has a fault, or that the CPU is crashing. The latter could be for many reasons.

I build a diagnostic tool that allows you to run multiple tests on the game. They are better than the built-in diagnostics that Williams had in that era. Using the tool will greatly enhance your speed in troublshooting and fixing the problem(s). You can find out more and also order one here:

The tests are very easy to run and you can do all of the tests with a simple logic probe and a volt meter. Let us know how it goes. The fix is likely very simple and inexpensive to repair.

#39 2 years ago

???

winmanwizard

Pinside apprentice