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(Topic ID: 223215)

Gorgar Not Booting (Update: No Sound in game.. again)


By MaxAsh

2 years ago



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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by MaxAsh
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#1 2 years ago

Picked up a Gorgar project, nice condition, but not booting currently. I have been following along with Piniwiki and other sources, so here's where I am currently:

MPU appears to be a System 4 instead of System 6 board. As determined in my other post, this should be okay, assuming it was done correctly.

2.5A and 8A fuses were blown and "jumpered" with pieces of household wiring (ugh). Removed that mess, replaced fuses. Then I unplugged everything aside from J1/J2 on the Power Supply board, turned the game on. GI all came on, and speaker is humming a bit. I tested all the voltages, and they're within spec, so that's good.

Checked over the MPU, and found the 6800 Chip was installed backwards (ouch). It was also really loose and one leg bent. I fixed all that.

Reseated all the other connectors, replaced the batteries (no corrosion anywhere that I saw). I verified that 4.6V was appearing on the 5101 chip where it should, and checked that the battery holder is doing its job.

Knowing that 6800 was probably dead because it was in backwards, I figured I wouldn't get much, but tried firing it up. LEDs on the board come on for a moment, then go out and don't come back on. Every once in a while, Gorgar says something like "You Beat Me" when it turns on, but not often. The Credit and P1 displays come on, but are missing various segments. Based on what I'm seeing, it's in Audit mode (the 04 00 on credit is pretty clear, and it's 14### something up on the P1 display).

I ordered a new 40-pin Interconnect Kit (done these on several System 7's and a System 6 before). Also ordered a new 6800 Chip (hoping I don't need 6802 instead? Can someone verify?) I have some spare 5101 chips from other games where I installed NVRAM, so I assume if that is bad I can socket that and replace it with one of my spares for testing.

Any other suggestions while I wait for parts? Thanks!

#2 2 years ago

A system 4 should use a 6800, System 6 uses 6802/6808.

Sounds like it's booting and reaching audit mode, which is good. Can you scroll through audit mode at all using the diagnostic buttons on the coin door? If coin door is open and ram+batteries are good it should be able to get to attract mode if you restart it again.

#3 2 years ago

Yes, I can scroll through the audit stuff with the buttons on the coin door (though with several segments out it's hard to read). Someone cut all the wires to the switch that detects the coin door as open or closed. Should I fix that? Wasn't sure if that was done on purpose, or if that's a bad thing on this game.

I also tried the quick on/off trick, no luck, just keeps going to audit. Wondering if that 5101 is bad... it's getting the proper voltage from the batteries on pin 22. It's a little higher than I expected (4.7VDC), but it's there. I'm going from the repair info section where it says:

"If the batteries are dead, or the battery holder is damaged, or the blocking diode D17 has failed, or there's a bad IC19 RAM 5101 chip, or battery corrosion has damaged the CPU board, the game will power up into "audit mode". "

And following those instructions as best I can.

Oh, tested D17 as suggested. Seems good. On the banded side it's 4.69VDC and on the other it's 4.90VDC. It's supposed to drop off a bit like that from what I read... hopefully it being high isn't a big deal. They're brand new batteries, so I assume that's why it's not in the 4.3 range mentioned in the guide.

#4 2 years ago

4.7v is fine.

When they cut the wires, did they just leave them disconnected, or did they wire the ends together?

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

4.7v is fine.
When they cut the wires, did they just leave them disconnected, or did they wire the ends together?

Looks like they're cut and twisted together. I see Black/Red and (2) White wires tied together and taped up. Looking at the schematic, I see those wires labeled for "Memory Protect Interlock Switch", right along with the related items like the Advance, Manual-Down, Auto-Up switches.

#6 2 years ago

Try untwisting them and then doing the same adjustments stuff, rebooting again

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Try untwisting them and then doing the same adjustments stuff, rebooting again

Separated the wires and tried again, still no luck sadly.

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

Picked up a Gorgar project, nice condition, but not booting currently. I have been following along with Piniwiki and other sources, so here's where I am currently:
MPU appears to be a System 4 instead of System 6 board. As determined in my other post, this should be okay, assuming it was done correctly.
2.5A and 8A fuses were blown and "jumpered" with pieces of household wiring (ugh). Removed that mess, replaced fuses. Then I unplugged everything aside from J1/J2 on the Power Supply board, turned the game on. GI all came on, and speaker is humming a bit. I tested all the voltages, and they're within spec, so that's good.
Checked over the MPU, and found the 6800 Chip was installed backwards (ouch). It was also really loose and one leg bent. I fixed all that.
Reseated all the other connectors, replaced the batteries (no corrosion anywhere that I saw). I verified that 4.6V was appearing on the 5101 chip where it should, and checked that the battery holder is doing its job.
Knowing that 6800 was probably dead because it was in backwards, I figured I wouldn't get much, but tried firing it up. LEDs on the board come on for a moment, then go out and don't come back on. Every once in a while, Gorgar says something like "You Beat Me" when it turns on, but not often. The Credit and P1 displays come on, but are missing various segments. Based on what I'm seeing, it's in Audit mode (the 04 00 on credit is pretty clear, and it's 14### something up on the P1 display).
I ordered a new 40-pin Interconnect Kit (done these on several System 7's and a System 6 before). Also ordered a new 6800 Chip (hoping I don't need 6802 instead? Can someone verify?) I have some spare 5101 chips from other games where I installed NVRAM, so I assume if that is bad I can socket that and replace it with one of my spares for testing.
Any other suggestions while I wait for parts? Thanks!

If you have a EPROM programmer and a 27C16 or 28C16 chip you can try the test ROMs that I wrote (on my Gorgar, actually!) They will work in a System 4 board (provided it is installed correctly of course).

You can start with the 10-LEDs test. That will tell you if your 6800 is still working. The LEDs on the MPU board will simply alternate as the CPU executes code.

From there you can use the later ROMs to test the rest of the 6800 as well as the blanking circuit, 5101 and everything else that you need to have a running pinball machine, including diagnosing switches, lamps, displays, etc.

Give them a try and see if they help you get the game up and running.

You can download them from here: http://pincoder.reversion.ca

If you don't have the programmer and chip(s) check out hobbyroms.com. They provide preprogrammed chips for a decent price. Just give them the link above and tell them which ROM images you want onto a chip.

There is also a thread on this site where you can leave some feedback: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-williams-system-6-in-game-test-roms

Let me know how you make out!

#9 2 years ago

Sadly I do not have a programmer, but know some people that do if I decide to check your stuff out. Thanks

#10 2 years ago

Okay, some updates...

Fixes:
I replaced the 40-pin interconnect, socketed the 5101 RAM position, and added a known good 5101 chip. I also reflowed all of the headers on both boards and replaced a bad transistor I found on the driver board.

Results:
Powered up to the same result, audit mode. Several segments out on P1 and Credit displays, but I know it's audit mode from what segments remain since I can still basically read them.

Then I decided to pull the batteries and try the quick on/off trick... and sure enough the game went into Game Over mode! Weird. The voltages seemed a little high from the batteries to the 5101 (4.69 at pin 22), maybe something was strange with them. But with them out, I can get to Game Over it seems.

The credit switches were all cut from their wires, but I was able to jumper over and add credits. I pressed start and the back left Drop Target Reset immediately fired to reset those targets. Middle drop targets I'm not sure, need to check. Ball did NOT kick out, but flippers work. Pops also work. Scoring seems to work as well. No Sound at all though sadly. I added multiple players to see if the outhole would register and advance to the next player, and it does, so the switch there seems to be good. I'll have to look at the transistor for the outhole kicker and check that solenoid I guess.

Displays are definitely weird. Player 4 is perfect. Player 3 is dead. Player 2 is semi-functional, but unreadable, and Player 1 is missing the bottom row and top right segments. I swapped the Player 4 and Player 1 displays and the same issue appeared, so I assumed it was the main display board or the connector. Cleaned and tested the connector, no change. Then I swapped Player 1 into the Player 4 position (since I knew that came up good) and it showed the exact same segments out, so I'm thinking the display itself is bad (I noticed small electrical spark/flickers in the display glass near the bottom). But if it's the display, I don't know why the 4P display didn't work in the 1P position? Strange.

To Summarize:

- 40-pin and 5101 (now socketed) replaced, all headers reflowed, transistor replaced on driver
- Removing Batteries allows on/off method to get me to Game Over
- Can manually credit up and start game, ball doesn't kick out, Flippers/Pops/Scoring seem to work.
- No Sound
- Displays P1, P2, P3 and Credit are having issues. P4 is okay.
- Still waiting on my new 6800 chip. Tried 6802, no luck.
.

Edit: Suggestions welcome. Wondering if there's anything else I should do while I wait for that 6800 chip? I am surprised it boots at all knowing that chip was probably messed up by someone putting it in backwards for a while!

#11 2 years ago

Does the sound test button on the sound board work?

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Does the sound test button on the sound board work?

I forgot about that! Thank you, and YES it does work! All the sounds, and all the speech just came out.

Also, just tested resistance on the outhole coil... it's 0.9ohm, so pretty sure it's in need of replacing. The transistor I replaced? You guessed it, it was for that coil and was toast. Guessing it went, and then the coil locked on, because it's cooked too.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

I forgot about that! Thank you, and YES it does work! All the sounds, and all the speech just came out.

That's good. So it's probably just some signal issue then. Or more transistors out. Are any other coils not working?

Strange that the outhole kicker went. I've had two Gorgars and on both it was the same issue!

#14 2 years ago

The coil in there is one I don't recognize... guessing someone tried to replace it and didn't do so well. Originally a SA-23-850-DC was used per the manual. Looks like I need a AE-23-800 as the newer replacement. Someone put a "Quality Coils" 04-1293 in there... which I've never seen before I don't think.

As for other coils, I just tested everything I think, and they seem good. Knocker is disconnected, as is the coin lockout, but the rest seem ok. Pops, Flippers, magnet in the pit, eject hole on the left mid area, all good. The drop target coils are good, but the middle one is getting jammed halfway up (bad sleeve I think, checking that soon). So it's pretty much just the outhole right now.

#15 2 years ago

So I swapped in the SA-23-850-DC coil from my Space Shuttle outhole, and it still didn't fire, which was odd. I checked the associated transistor again (Q15) and it's good. That's the one I found that was cooked/broken. Q14 (the small transistor above it) seems fine too. Thoughts on why it might not be firing beyond that? Not sure how to test/check it... I've always replaced the transistor and/or coil and boom it works.

#16 2 years ago

I'd replace the pre-driver (Q14) as well to be sure. Whenever one goes bad it stresses the other. Or it could be that the IC which drives Q14 is bad (and maybe that's even what originally locked on, causing Q15 to lock on, and it wasn't just Q15 failing). If you had a logic probe and a test rom you could check the signals and see where it's getting lost

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

I'd replace the pre-driver (Q14) as well to be sure. Whenever one goes bad it stresses the other. Or it could be that the IC which drives Q14 is bad (and maybe that's even what originally locked on, causing Q15 to lock on, and it wasn't just Q15 failing). If you had a logic probe and a test rom you could check the signals and see where it's getting lost

I have a logic probe (haven't really needed to use it much though so I'm pretty new at it), and no test ROM... are you referring to the ones mentioned by pincoder? It looks like, per the schematic, Q15/Q14 go through IC1 7408 and the PIA marked IC5.

Also, I did check and both solenoid wires do have continuity back to the board... I was hoping that might be the cause, but nope.

I've got a bunch of 2N4401's from another repair, so I'll change Q14 too for good measure even though it tests good.

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

Okay, some updates...
Fixes:
I replaced the 40-pin interconnect, socketed the 5101 RAM position, and added a known good 5101 chip. I also reflowed all of the headers on both boards and replaced a bad transistor I found on the driver board.
Results:
Powered up to the same result, audit mode. Several segments out on P1 and Credit displays, but I know it's audit mode from what segments remain since I can still basically read them.
Then I decided to pull the batteries and try the quick on/off trick... and sure enough the game went into Game Over mode! Weird. The voltages seemed a little high from the batteries to the 5101 (4.69 at pin 22), maybe something was strange with them. But with them out, I can get to Game Over it seems.
The credit switches were all cut from their wires, but I was able to jumper over and add credits. I pressed start and the back left Drop Target Reset immediately fired to reset those targets. Middle drop targets I'm not sure, need to check. Ball did NOT kick out, but flippers work. Pops also work. Scoring seems to work as well. No Sound at all though sadly. I added multiple players to see if the outhole would register and advance to the next player, and it does, so the switch there seems to be good. I'll have to look at the transistor for the outhole kicker and check that solenoid I guess.
Displays are definitely weird. Player 4 is perfect. Player 3 is dead. Player 2 is semi-functional, but unreadable, and Player 1 is missing the bottom row and top right segments. I swapped the Player 4 and Player 1 displays and the same issue appeared, so I assumed it was the main display board or the connector. Cleaned and tested the connector, no change. Then I swapped Player 1 into the Player 4 position (since I knew that came up good) and it showed the exact same segments out, so I'm thinking the display itself is bad (I noticed small electrical spark/flickers in the display glass near the bottom). But if it's the display, I don't know why the 4P display didn't work in the 1P position? Strange.
To Summarize:
- 40-pin and 5101 (now socketed) replaced, all headers reflowed, transistor replaced on driver
- Removing Batteries allows on/off method to get me to Game Over
- Can manually credit up and start game, ball doesn't kick out, Flippers/Pops/Scoring seem to work.
- No Sound
- Displays P1, P2, P3 and Credit are having issues. P4 is okay.
- Still waiting on my new 6800 chip. Tried 6802, no luck.
.
Edit: Suggestions welcome. Wondering if there's anything else I should do while I wait for that 6800 chip? I am surprised it boots at all knowing that chip was probably messed up by someone putting it in backwards for a while!

After replacing batteries, you need to power on with the coin door open (gets you service mode), power off, power on. This should always get you into attract mode.

When the game boots, it checks the values in the 5101 and if it thinks they're out of whack it tries to clear them and go into service mode. It can't do that if the coin door is closed as the memory protect inhibits writes to the second half of the CMOS.

As for the 6800 chip, dont throw it out just yet. The "pincoder" roms I wrote will test ALL the important parts functionality wise (IRQ, NMI, etc). Since it's already "half working" it would be interesting to see which tests it fails, if any.

As for the 5101, was it a new chip? If it was used it could have had info stored from previous use. The flipper ROMs dont check the validity of data perfectly. So clearing all the values out (with one of the test ROMs or *typically* by yanking batteries) and forcing the game to rewrite all the values properly is the best way to ensure the game functions correctly. While I was writing the test ROMs and flipping back to the game, I noticed strange behaviours (especially with the displays) purely just because there was garbage values in the CMOS. If you can find a programmer and run the clear_cmos ROM it's the best way to ensure proper functionality.

Hope all this helps. Looks like you're dealing with quite a few issues at the same time on this game!

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

I have a logic probe (haven't really needed to use it much though so I'm pretty new at it), and no test ROM... are you referring to the ones mentioned by pincoder?

I've never used those. Usually I get a copy of Leon's and hook my boards up to a supply on my workbench. Leon's just pulses all the coils and other outputs on and off. Simple, but if you just want to see where a signal is getting lost it's nice to have reliable pulses going out. If you can get the solenoid test to repeatedly fire the outhole coil though, you could even just do this in the game.

There should be a signal coming into IC1-10, and going out pin 8 to the predriver Q14. When the input to Q14 is high, that should pull Q14's output (and Q15's input) high, putting Q15's output low and firing the coil. If you get the coil 'firing' and aren't seeing any of those signals move, that's where the problem is. Although honestly half the time I just replace the transistors and chip and don't bother checking things

Capture (resized).PNG
#20 2 years ago

So if I was just going to replace the chip, you mean the IC1 7408?

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

So if I was just going to replace the chip, you mean the IC1 7408?

Yeah. If replacing Q14 doesn't fix it, then either IC1 or the PIA (IC5) is bad, unless there's some connectivity issue.

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Yeah. If replacing Q14 doesn't fix it, then either IC1 or the PIA (IC5) is bad, unless there's some connectivity issue.

Okay, I'll try Q14 and see if I have any luck. I tested from the coil wires back to the board, and it's got solid continuity. I reflowed the pins on the headers, but I haven't done new connector pins yet. Maybe I'll re-pin the specific pin associated with this coil, just for the hell of it. Going to do them all eventually anyway.

#23 2 years ago

I replaced Q14, and was about to put the board, back, but decided to test Q15 again... and it was bad! I have a feeling the incorrect coil someone installed (which was bad, burned and simply not supposed to be there) may have caused the issue. When I originally replaced Q15, I tried the game out with no luck. I had not realized the coil itself was bad at the time, so I'm guessing that it caused the new transistor to fail.

So I replaced Q15 again, and this time used the knocker coil (which was detached anyway) to replace the bad outhole kicker coil (same coil). And sure enough, it works! So now the game will start and kick out a ball, play through and game over properly. Sadly, the magnet stopped working, so I'll have to look into that.

Current Issue List:

- No Sound During Gameplay, however sound test button on sound board causes all sounds to play properly
- Displays P1, P2, P3 and Credit are not displaying properly (partial segments or dead). P4 is okay.
- Still waiting on my new 6800 chip
- Magnet no longer triggering when switch is hit, however when I ground the transistor on the board, it does work
- Right Slingshot kicker not firing when switches are hit, however when I ground the transistor on the board, it does work

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

No Sound During Gameplay, however sound test button on sound board causes all sounds to play properly

Does the coil test make sounds for coils 9-13?

Quoted from MaxAsh:

- Displays P1, P2, P3 and Credit are not displaying properly (partial segments or dead). P4 is okay.

Does swapping the P4 display around to other positions change it?

Quoted from MaxAsh:

- Magnet no longer triggering when switch is hit, however when I ground the transistor on the board, it does work

Switch registering in switch test?

Quoted from MaxAsh:

- Right Slingshot kicker not firing when switches are hit, however when I ground the transistor on the board, it does wor

Does it fire in coil test?

#25 2 years ago

I'll check all of that and report back.

Regarding the displays - it's really strange. If I put the P1 display in P4 position, it still has the same issues. However, if I put P4 in P1 position, still has the same issue. Very strange. I am worried that the driver board is killing displays in that position some how. Thankfully putting P4 back made it work again.

#26 2 years ago

Answering some of your questions after testing:

Quoted from zacaj:

Is [Magnet] Switch registering in switch test?

No, oddly enough it isn't now, so I will check the switch closer and see if it's dirty or having issues. The Magnet DOES activate during the Solenoid test, so it is still functioning.

Does [the right slingshot] fire in coil test?

Yes, it does

Does the coil test make sounds for coils 9-13?

When I cycle through the solenoid tests, no sounds are heard at all. It just fires the respective coils. Does solenoid/coil test mode normally include sound effects?

#27 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

Answering some of your questions after testing:

No, oddly enough it isn't now, so I will check the switch closer and see if it's dirty or having issues. The Magnet DOES activate during the Solenoid test, so it is still functioning.

Yes, it does

When I cycle through the solenoid tests, no sounds are heard at all. It just fires the respective coils. Does solenoid/coil test mode normally include sound effects?

9-13 should be sounds. The sounds are triggered by solenoid drives. What do 9-13 do?

#28 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

9-13 should be sounds. The sounds are triggered by solenoid drives. What do 9-13 do?

9-13 don't do anything sadly

1-6 fire as they should
7-8 are "N/C" and not used from what I can tell
9-16 nothing happens
17-19 are the Pops
20-21 are the Slings
22 is "N/C"

So I get the sounds with the sound board test switch, but not during the 9-13 in test mode. Thoughts? Thanks

#29 2 years ago

I checked the switches in switch test for the magnet and the right sling, neither are registering. I'll have to look closer at those switches and wiring later today.

Regarding the sound situation, does the fact that I'm getting nothing during test on solenoids 9-13 indicate a chip issue? I was planning on replacing the 7408 if the outhole didn't start working, but now it is so I'm not sure if I should go that route. 6800 should arrive soon, but I don't know if that could be part of the problem?

#30 2 years ago

So you're missing both the sounds and the knocker/coin lockout. Are you sure the coin lockout isn't energizing? It might be too quiet to hear. Losing a whole bank of coils would be a very different diagnostic route than the sounds not working.

Try grounding the tabs of the transistors for 9-16, see if any work then.

#31 2 years ago

The wiring for the coin lockout and knocker we both cut when I got the game (pretty common I've found some the lockouts can sometimes get noisy and people detach them I've found. The knocker coil I stole to replace my bad outhole coil, so I don't have one there to test right now.

I grounded the tabs on the transistors for a bunch of the coils the other day, and many of them did nothing (I'm guessing in the 9-16 range), but I'll double check that and see. Would grounding then cause the sound to play?

#32 2 years ago

Grounding Q31, 33, 35, etc should cause the sound to play. If it doesn't then there's some connectivity issue between 2J9 and the sound board 10J3

#33 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Grounding Q31, 33, 35, etc should cause the sound to play. If it doesn't then there's some connectivity issue between 2J9 and the sound board 10J3

Okay I'll test it and report back ASAP. Could the issue be chip related, or are you thinking just wiring?

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

Okay I'll test it and report back ASAP. Could the issue be chip related, or are you thinking just wiring?

It could be an issue with the chips on the sound board also, but connector issues are way more common

You can also ground the resistors on the sound board (R5-R10) to test the sound board sound inputs while bypassing the connectors

#35 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Grounding Q31, 33, 35, etc should cause the sound to play. If it doesn't then there's some connectivity issue between 2J9 and the sound board 10J3

Grounding those transistors didn't do anything, so no luck there. I already reflowed all the headers on everything CPU/Driver related, but not on the sound board, so I could try that. Though would the sounds play using that test switch if those connectors were not working properly? I could always start repinning connectors, though it seems odd that all the sounds would be non functional together at once like that.

You can also ground the resistors on the sound board (R5-R10) to test the sound board sound inputs while bypassing the connectors

Could you elaborate a bit on this test? Do you mean use the same ground I was using on the solenoid transistors and connect it to one side of the sound board resistors? Not sure what you mean, so I don't want to blow anything by grounding something I'm not supposed to! Thanks

EDIT - I just tested for continuity between the Driver board connector 2J9 and the Sound board connector 10J3. All good. I extended that and tested from the Q33, Q35, etc. transistors, and they make it all the way to the 10J3 connector as well, and even tested past that to the resistors on the sound board, finding continuity. So I'm thinking the wiring/connectors are good. Thoughts?

Sidenote: Regarding the right slingshot not working, I decided to test continuity between the switch (Orange-Green) and the driver board. It was good to the connector (2J13, Pin 8), associated resistor (R5), and associated IC (IC7 Pin 12). Mystery continues. After doing the continuity testing, suddenly the right slingshot is working. Perhaps I fixed something that was loose or shorted.

#36 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

Though would the sounds play using that test switch if those connectors were not working properly?

Yes.

Quoted from MaxAsh:

Could you elaborate a bit on this test? Do you mean use the same ground I was using on the solenoid transistors and connect it to one side of the sound board resistors? Not sure what you mean, so I don't want to blow anything by grounding something I'm not supposed to! Thanks

Yep. All that the transistors should be doing is sending ground to the sound board, and that goes through the resistors and then through IC5 into the PIA. So if you ground the resistors (sadly there's no test points on speech boards like there are on non-speech boards) and you don't get sound, then you confirm it's a sound board issue (either IC5 or the PIA, or maybe a connectivity issue between them).

Capture (resized).PNG
#37 2 years ago

I tried it... didn't hear anything. Is there a specific time I should do it (Game Over vs. Test mode)? If not, then I haven't had any luck as far as I can tell. So the test switch doesn't really help much, since it will still play sounds even if there are issues with the IC5 or PIA? Interesting. So rather than thinking the issue is over on the Driver or CPU, you're thinking Sound board then, based on your post.

.

Additionally - I did more switch tests, and it looks like all of the 3rd column in the switch Matrix (Green-Orange) isn't working. Column 6 (Green-Blue) might be out too... I need to check that. Last time I ran into that it was just a transistor, hopefully I get lucky and it's that simple.

#38 2 years ago

Should make sounds at any time (as long as you haven't hit the test switch). The test switch is mostly useful for making sure the CPU has booted and the amp works.

Is the PIA socketed? Do you have a logic probe?

#39 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Should make sounds at any time (as long as you haven't hit the test switch). The test switch is mostly useful for making sure the CPU has booted and the amp works.
Is the PIA socketed? Do you have a logic probe?

I believe IC10 is the PIA, and if I'm correct, sadly it's not socketed. I do have a logic probe, but I'm relatively inexperienced with its use, so guidance would be needed.

Two Side Notes/Questions:

1) The "DS1" switch at the top of the sound board, to the left of the test switch, do the dip switch settings on that matter? One of mine is "on" the other "off".

2) Good news! I was messing with the connector for the switches, and wiggling the Green-Orange wire within the connector a bit made all the switches work again (including the Pit magnet, and drops). So I'll re-pin that connector and we should be good there.

#40 2 years ago

I just found out Fuse F1 on the Sound Board was blown. Thought I checked both, but it's definitely no good. Rummaging for a 4A slow blow right now.

EDIT/UPDATE - Replaced the fuse... no change strangely. I'm thinking I should pull this board and reflow all the connectors, repin it as well.

#41 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxAsh:

I just found out Fuse F1 on the Sound Board was blown. Thought I checked both, but it's definitely no good. Rummaging for a 4A slow blow right now.
EDIT/UPDATE - Replaced the fuse... no change strangely. I'm thinking I should pull this board and reflow all the connectors, repin it as well.

Can't hurt.

Logic probe: put it on pin 4 of IC5 while you ground R9, see if the reading goes from high to low. Also on pin 13 of IC6, see if it changes when you ground R9. Want to check if the outputs of those two chips are working.

#42 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Can't hurt.
Logic probe: put it on pin 4 of IC5 while you ground R9, see if the reading goes from high to low. Also on pin 13 of IC6, see if it changes when you ground R9. Want to check if the outputs of those two chips are working.

A few questions if you don't mind... setting on the probe (CMOS/Pulse?) and if I remember correctly, I need to hook it up to a Ground and +5V?

UPDATE: So I did as I said above using the TP on the sound board. Pin 4 on IC5 just constantly showed "1" (High I assume) and no change really when I grounded R9. There was a very, very slight flicker of low maybe, but the 1 stayed on constantly red on my probe. On Pin 13 of IC6, same thing, only always "low" ("0"). I could be doing this wrong of course, please let me know if so. I did notice that there is a very small amount of static buzz that happens for about 1/2 second when I ground the R9, coming through the speaker, like it's trying to do something.

Here's something that could be important - I never tested the voltages on the Sound Board before. I just did using the Test Points on the board. The +5V is good (reading 4.97VDC), the -12VDC is showing a little high (-13.30VDC). My concern is that the +12V is showing low at 9.97VDC. Could that be the issue?

#43 2 years ago

I just changed both the DS1 switches to "ON" (previously Switch 2 was ON and Switch 1 was OFF) and I'm getting some sounds now. I started a game, and got several "thud" sounds before the ball kicked out. I tried several targets and switches, and they all emitted a simple "tone" when triggered. Not the normal sound effects the game should have, but it's something and I didn't have that previously. I can make a video if it helps, let me know.

#44 2 years ago

One DS controls sounds vs simple notes, it sounds like that's what you got. But if they're triggering then that sounds like the input circuitry is working. Or maybe only certain lines are out. Or maybe the rom is bad and it's having an issue playing the sounds. The sounds all work in the sound test though?

When you ground one side of IC5 the other should also go low and stay low as long as it's grounded.

the other DS controls speech on/off.

#45 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

One DS controls sounds vs simple notes, it sounds like that's what you got. But if they're triggering then that sounds like the input circuitry is working. Or maybe only certain lines are out. Or maybe the rom is bad and it's having an issue playing the sounds. The sounds all work in the sound test though?
When you ground one side of IC5 the other should also go low and stay low as long as it's grounded.
the other DS controls speech on/off.

"The sounds all work in the sound test though?" - Guessing you mean when I press the sound test button? Yes, they all sound like they work to me. It cycles through a bunch of them, then all the Gorgar voice lines, without issue.

I had to stop testing for the evening since my whole family went to bed, and apparently the volume control pot is stuck on the current volume, which is loud (turning it in either direction does nothing). I'll see if I have a spare to replace it with.

I believe the simple notes thing you mentioned is indeed where I'm at after changing the DS. I'll mess with it some more in the morning and let you know. I'm re-pinning the switch connector before bed.

By the way, shout out to Rochester, I went to school there years ago. My sister still lives in the area.

#46 2 years ago

Interesting update...

So today I took out the Sound/Speed boards and reflowed all the headers. I re-pinned all the connectors as well. When I reconnected everything, my sound was completely gone (no speaker hum, test switch on the sound board didn't do anything anymore). Then I touched the volume pot inside the cabinet, and just my fingers touching the metal dial made the whole system "buzz". After messing with the cabinet volume pot for a while, suddenly sound game back very quiet, with heavy buzz/hum. Turning the volume up or down changes nothing.

I started a game out of curiosity, and I actually had some in-game sounds. Gorgar speech worked when I triggered the magnet, and switches/targets produced a sound. It seems like all targets (behind rubber switches, rollovers, stand up targets) all make the same sound right now, but it's something, and Gorgar is talking a bit. Sound test switch still does all the sounds/speech like before. Thoughts?

The volume pot in the cabinet definitely looks like it might be an issue. It's labeled "1000 ohm", but tests as 2000ohm. And I thought these games used either 5kohm or 10kohm? I have a spare 10k, but I'm pretty sure that's not going to work. Can someone tell me what the correct potentiometer value would be?

#47 2 years ago

You can try just putting a wire across it to bypass it completely (that'll give max volume) to rule it out as a problem. I can't find a rating in the manual.

The more resistance, the quieter it will be, but they all go down to 0, so if you use a 10k you'll just have a much more 'sensitive' control (less range will actually be usable).

#48 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

You can try just putting a wire across it to bypass it completely (that'll give max volume) to rule it out as a problem. I can't find a rating in the manual.
The more resistance, the quieter it will be, but they all go down to 0, so if you use a 10k you'll just have a much more 'sensitive' control (less range will actually be usable).

After removing the 10J4 connector from the board and Jumpering across pins 1 & 2, I get max volume as you noted. So the volume issues are definitely the pot, which is fine I'll replace that once I know what the proper value is for it.

I'm getting the following now during gameplay:

- Gorgar does not speak when a game is started. Instead, there is a "pew pew pew pew" sound effect before the ball kicks out.
- Heartbeat sound effect working (which changes and speeds/slows during gameplay)
- Gorgar's voice works when the Pit is triggered
- Sound effect for the A+B+C rollovers x bonus award when all three are triggered sounds correct to me
- All other switches/rollovers/targets seem to share a single sound effect currently (sort of a buzzer sound)
- The only exception is one slightly different sound for the switches behind the drop targets.
- Spinner/Pops have no sound effect
- No sounds are emitted when the ball drains and bonus is counted

I haven't re-pinned the connector on the driver board, I'll do that next just in case.

I will PM you a link to a short video for reference.

Thoughts?

#49 2 years ago

Probably missing one of the data lines. Go back in the coil test now that you're getting some sounds and see if any 9-13 don't make a sound (or just jumper the transistors)

#50 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Probably missing one of the data lines. Go back in the coil test now that you're getting some sounds and see if any 9-13 don't make a sound (or just jumper the transistors)

In the coil test, I now get sounds on 9 and 10, but nothing on 11-13. The sound I have for 9 is the sound I'm hearing for just about everything right now (switches, targets, etc).

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