When can I come play your WOF?!!!!

I'm sure the top-tier EM and classics players (or simply good players in general,) in existence all love to sit around and bitch about all that unfinished code! lol

High score IS and always WILL be the name of the game.

Right after I get creepy Pat Sajak off the game.

Why are you trying to make excuses for a company that you owe nothing to? Stern needs to support their sales. It's their choice to market to the home buyer, so they need to follow through with their stated plans to support these games beyond the sale. Anything less than that is used car lot tactics and Stern should be above that.

Why are you making excuses for people who actually think these threads are going to affect Stern's business plans one iota, or do anything besides take up pinside bandwidth or annoy the rest of us with their ineffective whining? You don't owe those people anything.

And why do you think a pinball company should be "above" anything? You do realize at least one pinball company was once owned by the mob, right?

Me neither. I just like to sit back and watch people bitch about code on games they own and then how excited they are when the next sparsely coded title is announced.

You are right, TZ is so shallow

It really is. People would not be happy with code like that now, we'd never hear the end of it.

And way to cherry pick that title instead of the other 20 they released. KISS' initial launch code was deeper than most 90s williams games.

My goodness. You really are as dense and impossible to talk to as they all say you are. Noted.

Maybe put a fedora on that straw man you're propping up there. It'll look nice.

Dude. Really? TZ has some of the best and most thought out and complete code there is, sorry.

TZ's code is fine. It's not a master class in depth, but it holds its own. I think that a few small tweaks to make lighting new modes harder and better payoff for finishing modes (not just starting them and hitting a short two) would really elevate it.

Let's simplify things shall we.

THIS IS THE NEW APPROVED CRAZY LEVI TOILET.
Crazy Levi approves of this because he doesn't see a problem pissing standing up. However, is wife deems this thing unfinished. Crazy Levi cannot comprehend why is wife is upset. *rant over *

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TZ's code is great, where did I say I didn't like it?

When people complain about Stern's "unfinished code" they usually don't even know what they are complaining about.

Stern Customers

Is there confusion between good code and finished code? Maybe everyone has to accept not all code will be a masterpiece like LOTR, TSPP, TWD, AC/DC or Met.

B66 is clearly unfinished, but you could argue GB and Kiss are basically done (apart from gb bug fixes). How many features of the game are not used? Like Crazy said, they are still as deep, or deeper than most, if not all 90's games.

Move in ready, get it now for full price and in the unforeseeable future sometime, walls, electricity, plumbing and fixtures will be updated from time to time until we're ready to start building and selling our next unfinished house.

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Microsoft® Windows® 2017 BETA SLE - buy it now, $199.95 - Fully boot your PC, load half of your apps, find and organize 1/4 of your content easier, with a new and improved desktop graphical user interface that's using 1/8 of what it's capable of. You'll be the first on the block with this amazing new software and we'll continually release updates for it so it's 60% complete by the time we release Microsoft™ Windows® 2018 BETA SLE, Microsoft® Windows® 2019 BETA SLE, and Microsoft® Windows® 2020 BETA SLE.

If full price is $15K,
Sign me up!

Just deliver it next to the beach, with a nice view and a free 30th anniversary Lazy Boy.

** House subject to change.

Creating fun games is an ART. It's not a matter of punching the keys fast enough until it's completed.

I do agree with Levi on many points......Stern has no legal obligation to do any more than they do with code. Does it suck 100% YES. That said, they are making games for the collector but take the operator approach.

They only way we can stop this is by voting with our wallets, and thats why I do not preorder or purchase without playing first anymore.

When value was good in 2012 and you could get a ACDC Super LE ( which is what they billed that game at also ) for 6500. Had shaker, 12" speaker , color changing GI , serial#, quality made features and toys, plaques and certs. signed PF, mirrored glass, and two color powder coating with water jetted rails it was worth it to take a chance on code.

Today..... no fkn way. ACDC and 66 were the only two games billed as SLEs and four years later they are over double the cost with half the value.

I do LOVE Stern games but my new purchasing view is play it , buy it, and be happy with it if thats all the code it gets.

Why is coding a pinball so difficult? Really with all the video game consoles coming out with title after title year after year complete, why is pinball so different. My guess is these guys are playing to much and not working. Stern needs to hire some young hot chicks to do marketing (like dead flip reveals) and keep the programmers in a room with a computer and no pinball games.

Which home buyers don't you think care about code? I think home buyers care about code more than most (not counting those that buy a machine that looks good or just to have one).

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Yup. If you are a programmer you can't just sit down and say "Today I will be brilliant". Some days, you can go for 16 hours straight, some days you're lucky if you can do 16 minutes ... if you are good, it's an art. And you can't do art on a schedule.

From what I understand video games take years to make with people doing nothing but.

You are comparing apple and oranges

Then I might not pay you for having a brain fart. That contract should be then based on a time frame if you hire people like that. The strategy of the new game should be complete before you start coding it right? Then it is writing in a computer language. Same shit over an over, until the super jack. Then restart...

I understand that. Thats why I made the quote.

I do believe designing great games is an art, and developing great code requires creativity whether it's games or enterprise software. But, maintenance releases are a bit different and typically easier to schedule.

I think about every software that I've worked on has either shipped late or barely on time, and lots of reasons why. But, no reason it can't be on a schedule, have benchmarks, milestones, and testing. Doesn't matter if it's a team of 2 or 20,000.

My main point, though, was without knowing the frameworks and tools, it SEEMS like there's little output relative to the number of games and developers. I'm sure there's a lot going on. I don't blame the developers, it's quite possibly BDMs who allocate their time elsewhere. Ultimately, Stern's lackluster code support after shipping a game is disappointing.

Video games have huge teams who work for 2+ years working on games. By the time a pinball programmer gets the finished design to code, they might only have 4-6 months before release. On top of that - they're creating a non-linear game with multiple possibilities and events happening simultaneously...video games are relatively linear.

I can imagine a developer in a production meeting...

"Artwork and manufacturing on track. How's the code?"
"It's coming. This is art, not code, so I can't give any estimates as to when it will be done."

I'm sure the randomization doesn't help as bouncing from one project to another is difficult, but would be great to have more post release support. I wonder how much of the Spike system is software vs hardware? Again I'm an outsider to pinball development but I'd imagine framework and tooling is improved with every platform.

I'm not trying to excuse the pokiness of Stern's code releases. And I generally agree it takes a different skill set/mindset to do maintenance or tweak code than it does to design/develop it.

But it is in no way as easy or a straight forward as some seem to think.

I think I read that Lyman was/is also involved in writing the support for Spike 2. That could also explain why there is very early code on BM66.

Or it may be as simple as poor project management, unrealistically compressed schedules, and/or lack of resources.

Agree completely. Finding the root cause of bugs, and then fixing them without introducing new bugs is exceedingly difficult. Hopefully much of this could be common core code so that the true 'artistry' is the orchestration of rules, but realistically difficult given the variation in each game.

A good programmer can still commit to and make a schedule, but PMs who don't understand that you just can't take an estimate of lines of code and multiply by some unit of time per line of code to make a schedule are more often at fault when the project timeline is messed up.

You and I must work for the same company...

Even Ac/dc had quality issues all over it when it was first released.

Please, it should be the same code game to game. Left ramp, left ramp, left ramp = this.

Stern needs a intern program, maybe 1 out of 5 will stay and the older folks can keep playing pinball games.

So I am a software engineer, but I have no knowledge of Stern's actual development process. But if I am guessing:

While the SPIKE core system stays the same, each game has a new set of mechs and configuration of hardware (lights, switches, etc) I'd imagine that each feature and toy is what they end up coding before the release, individually. Then they run that software plus the mechs in that test room for hours and iterate over the mechs. Then you gotta put all those individual items together in a game and get the rules and lights working minimally to ship. At any time if the mechs are delayed you are holding up the rest of the dev on that game, and you have to know ASAP whether the mech is a go or no go, or requires key mechanical or software redesign. Because if the original concept for toy A needs a major rework then the art team needs redesign, and the licensors might need new approval, and playfields can't be cut until all that shit is figured out.

The light shows and rules and music cues and all that are what we see and think are important but it's the LAST thing that needs to be done because it doesn't hold anyone else at the factory up. And it can be iterated over without hours of mechanical testing. Basically if they are working on this stuff 3 months before shipping something is wrong. It sucks but I think what is happening is they have just enough bandwidth workwise to get the games 1.0 working out the door and have to crunch to make those dates, so they don't have any time left over for rules or maintenance. It's tough but I also understand sterns position. Software engineers are probably the most expensive salary at Stern. And I bet these guys could skip town and make more money working for some lame startup. So they can't really hire their way out of it.

Not to mention on a team of six at least one or two devs are working on R&D like next gen board systems, new display techs, experimental toy designs for a game designer, etc.

Anyways my .02c . I love pinball but even if embedded systems was my thing I doubt I'd work for Stern because I could make more money with less crunch time working for a web or app startup.

Those truly familiar with Mustang Premium/LE 's code know that it is great! And there wasn't a super long wait for it to be fully developed either.

So if your number the mechs, they only thing that changes in the code is mech#

No. Every game has completely different rules and logic. Have you played a pinball machine!??! It's more than just "switch mech switch light mech switch coil". It's like creating a massively complex mechanical board game or chess every single time.

One of my first hard lessons in corporate marketing was when my Sr VP wrote on a whiteboard:
'PRICE
QUALITY
DELIVERY
Pick any TWO.'

Why, asked I.
Because he said, if you think you're a great manufacturer, and want to make alot of profit, and know that your customers aren't as smart as YOU are - then it really doesn't matter that they can't get everything they want.

Deja Vu here, all over again!

BM66 was rushed into production to meet anniversary dates and deadlines, knowing Stern they Probably gave Lyman a week to get it flippable on the new system.

Besides BDK had pretty solid code by the time Lyman released the final update, the physical game itself was the limitimg factor that dragged the game down. BDK always screamed out for a second ramp instead of that teeter totter and awful upper playfield, with a little more speed and flow BDK would have been much better received and ranked higher imo. The only thing missing from BDK that I wish George brought over from BDK was the drop target into joker lock that was a nice shot.

If we get code as solid as BDK (you could tell from the deadflip stream Lyman was frustrated with the code and I'm sure he made a couple of notes) BM66 will be awesome and I imagine at the very least Lyman will be porting over alot of the code from BDK to work on and certainly improve in relation to the improved design, just need to give him a little time, unfortunately he's not an octopus and only has one pair of hands.

Wrong...just different paths in the code. All of the paths in a good game have an ending.

PRICE
QUALITY
DELIVERY

Umm, Which two does Stern do well?

Well they get games "delivered"
And they do well on "price"..... for the shareholders at least

But you must learn to estimate... pace yourself... learn to adapt... and accept deadlines based on your estimates.

Wow...your ignorance of the process and disrespect toward the experts who do this for a living is baffling.

Please show them how it's done, genius. Program a fully functional, deep and fun pinball machine in 6 months. Grab a P-ROC. Go.

Sorry but this in not planning a mission to mars.