Stern will remedy the situation for sure. Although they never sent me my new pf I was promised. Didn’t really care that much because it wasn’t that bad.

So fast forward, if JJP has now remedied the pf and flipper issues then it’s just a matter of past negative experiences for some like you and others Neil that keep buyers from jumping back in.

When you treat customers a certain way, take them for granted, poor customer service then you can expect to reap the consequences of alienating future purchases.

I haven’t experienced it personally. I buy both Stern and JJP games I like. Or AP, CGC or anyone else

Yes, I meant on GF. Someone should stream GF with the multiballs scaled back.

I think most people in on GF want to experience the game as-designed, but I'm sure someone will do that as time rolls on.

I am not sure if this is accurate but I had heard that GB was the last major playfield swap with fully populated PFs. My initial GB LE order (order placed on reveal) was taken over by a friend, who had ghosting with the inserts. Stern replaced it, fully populated. He later had chipping just on the north side/edge of a Scoleri Brother hole. That sucked but could have used a cliffy or set the drop target higher I think.
Coincidentally, I had an opportunity to buy a HUO GB LE a few years later from someone who had already secured a fully populated PF from Stern through the dealer. Sweet deal! I go to play the GB for a couple of months and then brought in the used PF to the dealer and swapped it out. Literally a brand new GB LE, that was now over 3 years from when I was in on the first run. I don't think that we will see Stern do that again, hopefully there is no need to.

The only thing that was lame about Stern's largesse on GB playfield swaps is for Europe they were giving the playfields with the misspelled insert. Bad form. I guess they thought most Europeans weren't native English speakers and wouldn't notice.

They noticed.

3rd camp is location players (a larger group than owners at home) who don't have a choice, and who get bored with GnR after a couple games because it's too multiball heavy. They can't change the settings, but their thoughts/opinions of the game are still valid because it's the game that was produced and designed for them to play. This is how the game was made to be played on location by the person who designed the code, and operators aren't likely to change that.

And a fun part of pinball is playing on location together with other people who enjoy a game. It's good that there are lots of choices of games available to play to suit a variety of personal preferences. But it shouldn't be considered good for default code in a game to not appeal to a pretty good chunk of players. And when I'm at local pinball gatherings it's a large percentage of people who don't have fun playing GnR even though we know the rules about boost MB, patches, etc because everything is just drowned out by the constant MBs. A number of times I've seen people notice free credits sitting on GnR and still pass it by because they just don't want to play it again. And resale activity/pricing on the game seems to back that up.

I'll make this analogy. In a video game like Call of Duty or any other battle game, there are weapons upgrades that are earned and/or acquired as you progress through the game. Imagine just getting every weapon and power up almost immediately after starting the game, so it just becomes hitting the buttons and spraying shots around like crazy immediately after starting it. Might be fun to play a time or two, but after that it would get a bit boring because any interesting stuff in the game is drowned out by the continual chaos of just pushing buttons and hitting something with every shot because it's almost impossible to miss anything on a shot.

Godfather seems like it's already gone too far down this path in code for them to change the design of code now. Will be interesting to see if it ends up similar to GnR as a game considered by most everyone as looking good to the eye but considered by a lot of people to be not a lot of fun to play repeatedly.

Definitely this.

The bigger problem with GnR on location is the fade is no joke, due in large part to the immediate and ongoing multiballs. On GnR, fade comes on hard and fast and really reduces potential enjoyment of the game on location. It's one of a handful of pins where I say it absolutely positively needs active cooling. No ambiguity - it HAS to have it.

Also, to a lesser degree, the magnet dying because of JJP's head-scratcher of a choice to use a thermal switch for temperature regulation when it doesn't have enough cycles to last in a pinball machine environment and inevitably dies, disabling the magnet permanently.

True, but even stepping up to a GnR that hasn't been played for an hour the flippers still have that JJP weak feel. Sounds like they've cleared that up on Godfather, and it would be better if they had default code design that let the GF layout and those 29 ball paths really shine with the stronger flippers. But they make their games the way they make them, so it is what it is.

The look I give when I get a crappy score has been featured in this game.

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Not being argumentative, but many people on this thread noted how the multiballs are to much and it may be a factor in why they are passing on GF.

Hence the need, in my opinion, for a stream with multi ball scaled back. See what can be achieved without the hit everything multiballs stacked on each other.

On Pirates, I changed the number of gold required for Tortuga MB from 50 to 100. I found that this MB was too easy to get and was frequently the glue that would string the other MB's together. Making it a harder goal to achieve helped a lot with the balance.

Yea I figure tweaks like this should cut back on multi. Also, changing the ball locks to 3 vs 2 etc on the first multi. prob a bunch of tweaks can be done.

No, I get it, but the point is GnR has proven that there are copious tweaks provided by pinball_keefer to customize the play to your personal liking, including multiball frequency. And even moreso than GnR, in GF the frantic nature of balls flying out from everywhere and back at you at lightning speed reinforces the vibe that you're fighting for your life in a mob crab barrel. It's about a vibe, I think. After being very meh on the whole Godfather rumor, once I saw where they went (more of a Kingpin 2 than movie-as-a-pin), I changed my mind. We'll see.

Not by me. GNR is a blast to play repeatedly.

And the precision flippers make a huge difference. On location? Without the ability to crank it up, pinwoofers, and premier flippers? I get it.

The only setting I think I remember changing on GNR was to make it take more spins to qualify Slash solo. Plus adult mode, jukebox mode and the equalizer but those don’t count much. And I opted into the Beta program and updates. The rest was fine with me out of the box and the game still rocks.

I get your point and have your system on my Stranger Things where it makes a huge difference after a little while of playing. The problem with GNR is that my flippers are spongy from the very first flip of the very first game of the day, onward, even before a multiball kicks in (that whole 7 or 8 seconds of single ball play). Do you think the cooling system would help that out, even right from the start? If it will help from the start, it might be part of the solution. Since so many people have complained and I've felt the same flipper laziness in GNR at other venues, I never explored changing or cooling coils or anything like that.

What kind of temps did the precision flippers come out at? I figured they may help with the fade, I thought people could turn down the coil power when using precisions?

I don't know. I don't have them to test. I'm assuming they will delay the fade due to being able to turn down coil power since more force is being transmitted cleanly to the flipper, but they won't stop it.

How do you know turning down the coil power and using a different flipper system will not stop it? Just curious as it must be obvious since you enjoy data on this kind of stuff.

Are the JJP coils just so crappy the heat loads up no matter the coil power?

I figure there must be another super clear reason you say that, I enjoy your testing on game kudos!!!!

First flip, no. But I think SOME of that feel difference is flipper button tension and switch blade gap. Those can be tuned.

The right flipper has started fading on a stock GnR after 15 minutes or so - it's very fast. I made the first GnR kit for Karl before I got my GnR, so I knew it was bad, but once I got mine, I was really surprised at how fast the fade comes on. It's one of the fastest, if not the fastest out there, which is not a prize you want to win.

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Physics.

Fade is caused by the increase in electrical resistance in the coil as it heats up. Lower temps is lower resistance to electricity flowing freely. It's why they supercool materials to make them superconductive and achieve effectively ZERO resistance for maximum electrical efficiency.

As the temperature increases in an electrical medium, like coil wire in this case, the amount of power to do the same amount of work increases. If the power is constant and not increased to account for the resistance, you get less work (in this case force from the magnetic pull). So putting a more efficient flipper system on and turning down the power will SLOW the buildup of heat, but as long as you are actively using the flippers it will not STOP it. Heat causes resistance which causes more heat as the coil is used. That's why active cooling is the ultimate solution - it disperses the heat that causes electrical resistance to increase.

There's a nice interactive demonstration of how heat causes electrical resistance here:

https://nationalmaglab.org/magnet-academy/watch-play/interactive-tutorials/heat-resistance/

Try it!

For example, I just started also tracking coil resistance cold and at the end of temp testing. On JP Prem, the right flipper coil was at 4.7 Ohms of resistance at the beginning. By the end, it was at 5.7 Ohm. More resistance is more power for the same work, or less work for the same power. Upper flipper went from 4.4 Ohm to 5.1 Ohm. Physics.

Oh great defender of all things JJP, you sure have it out for Stern and constantly trying to pull them down to the same level as JJP. Sorry JJP poor quality issues have stung most of us over the years, far greater than Stern has ever done. My experience is Stern always takes care of most any issue, albeit takes them some time, but JJP has left me in every instance to my own remedies. JJP poor quality problems have been large and many, not just a minor few like Stern. For the record, not happy with exorbitant pricing from either company, but JJP takes the cake on that one.

To be fair, JJP quality issues have never stung you as you don’t own any games. You are a location player. So for you to make comments like you are a potential buyer makes no sense. You dont own any games. Nothing wrong with that. But let’s be real

LOL, just because I don’t list them any longer is not a reason to make incorrect assumptions. Definitely not a location player, that’s a ridiculous assumption, just because I choose not to list my games for an irrelevant perusal for others to take shots at. Stopped showing that years ago.

Are you the guy who got caught posting up like non American games as your own? Changed the photo then by cropping it out. I have a couple games and if it was not you my apologies in advance for calling you out or attempting too.

Then I stand corrected with my sincerest apologies for the assumption

JJP mentioned in the Flip N Out stream that Godfather is their first game to have the backglass entirely lit (including the perimeter).

Anyone else notice how bright and colorful the lit backglass looks as a result?

Nice!

Know nothing about this, nor what you’re talking about.

You sir, your false attempted attack, is precisely why I don’t post my collection here and never will. Personal game lists are not relevant to any discussion and frankly none of your business.

Any chance of getting some pictures of how they have those wired up? I’m curious if they are similar to the mods out there or if they are more integrated. If they are better or cleaner, then I’m wondering if they can be added to their older games.

I think the reason people didn't cry constantly about MB on POTC is, they were harder to start.

Yellow: Sink the Dauntless
Blue: 5 non-consecutive loops
Red: Hit all 9 major shots in the game
Green: lock 3 balls
Purple: Spinner rips to the depths

None of that is likely to happen accidentally. Maybe red is most likely, but you're unlikely to build the stack unless you're doing it intentionally.

Contrast with Guns:

Lights: hit the lights target on the UPF (I think only twice by default)
Pyro: Pyro target behind Slash hat / nearby sling, takes 2-3 hits IIRC
AMP: Light the AMP lane
Crowd: Skill shots to fill the meter, under flipper shot

My guess is lights and pyro start, people don't know why, and cry. The lengthy in-song MB experience likely adds to that.

I still think stacking all the POTC MBs is one of the greatest things in pinball, and I only wish they'd added a reward for stacking all 4 in Guns.
"4444" maybe?

And jjPotC owners were only 20% of GnR's base. Small, SMALL base. Like Horton Hears a Who if they are complaining, compared to GnR's mob.

Played the LE yesterday -- only had an opportunity for one game (it was occupied constantly the entire night, except for a little down time when some parts fell off under the PF into the cabinet!) but it played well and seemed like fun. Like all modern games, will definitely need to spend more time on it to start figuring out what the heck I'm doing.

In the meantime, I'll make him a start button he can't refuse!

Available in my shop at https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1282-rocket-city-pinball/08018-3d-start-button-the-godfather

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Right on Derek - excellent info and insights. POTC is a super fun game and I have a feeling that the Godfather may be as cool to play!

Additionally, I think POTC's multiballs are really well balanced and fit together (stacking-wise) exceedingly well - like each finger of a glove. Collectively, with Tortuga Multiball (#6), they create an overall thrilling challenge that pays off with the highly satisfying 666666 jackpot!

I don’t know how I forgot that masterpiece?

Me either, that game is amazeballs.

Yep I wouldn’t change POTC MB stacking since like you mentioned they each take several shots to qualify. It doesn’t feel like a MB was just gifted to you. And if you want to get them all going together then you probably want to start yellow and then Tortuga first since doing the cannon shot and collecting gold while in MB isn’t super easy, so there’s still a challenge in that thanks to the layout design. Also, add-a-balls are more challenging to get and ball saves are shorter.

I’d maybe change the ability to start new modes while still in MB though. That unlimited mode stacking is still a bit much for my preference. But for me on that game the unique layout (and needing to hit all shots in the layout) and the rocking ship with cannon shot still makes it fun to play.

I just got a GnR and changed settings to make it less likely to get the cheap multiballs.The thing I noticed on The Godfather was the multiball save time was ridiculous.
Keith needs to turn off ball save a few seconds after multiball starts!

Big Thanks to Marshall & David at Little Shop Of Games for Getting the Godfather's 50th to my 40th! All the Best Fella's

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One hell of a birthday present!

Since it came up, and for what it's worth, I'm doing some testing of my own and thought I'd post a photo of my coil temps on AIQ after 90 minutes of continues play with my flipper system installed. Flipper response unchaged during the entire game. Coil power set to factory default, they peaked @ 108.6 F (42.6 Celsius) as shown in the attached FLIR infrared image. Ambeint room temp was 71 degrees F. Disclamer: I removed the paper wrap off the coils (saved the paper wrap for reference), but figured I'd let the coils breath!

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AIQ is a slow burn to get to fade, and uneven (one side gets much hotter than the other). That looks like the right flipper assembly, which isn't really a problem on AIQ. The left is the one that gets hotter if I remember right (because of the marvel shot), but it takes more than 90 minutes to fade. Did you get a temp on the left?

Stranger Things would be the real test since it gets hot much faster than almost any other Stern.

Why is the Godfather owners thread still locked?

Thanks for posting this Tuna… Feels amazing that a dream theme for me (almost impossible to see in a Pinball) will be here at home this summer
(I can’t believe that even my girlfriend is happy about this Pinball, but she is! )

Good to see you around Tuna!

There's this one? https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-godfather-club-keep-it-in-the-family

PinMonk The photo was of the left coil and temp, the right flipper coil was only two degrees cooler than the left. I think your data for AIQ shows 150 F @ 90 minutes if I recall, I might be wrong?

Found the longer AIQ stock test sheet from 2020 that was actually 2 hours 5 minutes (I updated the summary chart instead of the >90 and 90 it now just says 120). I was apparently a little less strict about the 5 minute intervals back then while figuring out the protocol. Check points were 0, 10, 16, 22, 28 minute, etc. But it looks like the more efficient transfer of power from your precision bushings and flippers may delay fade by another hour from that 90 minute check on AIQ. Ambient temp on mine was about 10 degrees higher to start. The stock test on mine was 32 degrees higher at the 90 minute check where yours were ~109. Hard to say precisely without a progression of temperatures leading up to that 90 minute spot-check exactly how long fade would be delayed after that check, but I'm estimating about an hour. The more efficient transfer of energy that allows lower coil power definitely makes a difference. AIQ is a slow-build machine for coil heat. It would be interesting to see the effect on much hotter/faster machines like Stranger Things.

I felt the same way. The stacking: two multiballs plus starting a mode plus locking a ball for another multiball. And the music and sounds. Yikes! I so wanted to own and love a JJP but this definitely is not the one. But it does look expensive I will give it that I wish half of that value could have been put into the playfield, toys or something other than diverters. The legs and lions are pretty cool.

For the record Stern replaced two playfield for me (Mando and Elvira).

How many balls are in the GF installed? 6 like GnR?

GF CE probably best looking pin of all time.