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This definitely looks like a adhesion problem in my eyes. The ink is lifting all the way under the Mylar.
If you have to pad the landing spot for each and every part then there is a problem that could be much better addressed by fixing the true underlying issue .
Quoted from Genjuro:Hep, I wonder why JJP and Mirco don't hire a 3rd party consultant to review the entire process of playfield construction through to installation in the game. I feel like this problem for them is a culmination of many small decisions that have a negative end result. If it were me, I would be checking species of wood, humidity of the wood, glues used in the plywood, the materials used by the printing process, install at the factory, etc..
JJP, are they going to decide to be a pinball manufacturer that has games that are coveted for decades to come, or thrown out like disposable electronics.
I wondered the same thing when all this first started happening. There are labs and chemist that could easily identify what’s going on.
My thought is they already know but don’t like the answer or solution. Whatever it is I can only imagine must be too tough or expensive to overcome and they would rather continue on this path.
I have been doing some things daily the exact same way for almost thirty years now and with technology they could be done differently,easier cheaper you name it. Why do I torture myself with some of these old school processes?
Because they work well. There is a history of durability and I know anytime I deviate from that I lose that comfort zone I am operating in and introduce unknowns into the process that may show up immediately or may not be known until it is far too late to correct them.
Not worth the risk.
The question in regards to this playfield issue is how can this seemingly consistent outcome be acceptable? At what point do you say this isn’t working but the old way did?
Quoted from TigerLaw:Diamond coated playfields all still look incredible. Everyone says the chemicals used in that coating are no longer allowed, which is a darn shame...one would think there would be something at least as good as the ceramic coats put on high end vehicles....
Bingo...or, if JJP survives, they pass the cost down to their future customers. It's a bad deal for everyone.
The very common and widespread myth that chemicals used in older coatings are outlawed is not true for the most part unless you are talking about things like lead and asbestos or CA based manufacturing specifically.
The real issue is that these older and quite frankly better chemicals are not as fast ,easy nor compliant as the more modern replacements so companies are pressured to adapt or are doing so for ease of production.
Things can completely be done the old reliable way but few have the patience for it.
They are acting like they are all about quality and proceeding in a manner that is about nothing but cost and ease.
A digital print is easier and cheaper than a screen print. A universally compliant finish coat is the path of least resistance than a probable more robust and toxic version.
The balancing act of the modern business and manufacturing climate is showing its true effects on the end customer these days.
Your paying for the fantasy of it and not really getting it.
Quoted from Dallas_Pin:Skyemont ... I’m in the club. Filled a ticket with JJP and alerted my distro. I’ve asked for a new unpopulated playfield so it can be professionally cleared and allowed 10 months of curing before install. This is another huge black eye for JJP and Mirco!
If you have to wait ten months or even ten weeks you are not using the right product for the application.
For a playfield a product that is installable in 2 weeks is appropriate.
If it is not then it’s the wrong product.
Hardening takes place in a short window. Say 4-8 hours. Curing takes place in a longer period. It can be 2-4 months depending on many factors such as hardner,climate,application thickness and even humidity.
Most manufacturers of these coating materials say wait six months before waxing to insure you don’t seal a surface before full cure but that is because they are factoring in worst case scenarios and potential unknowns to be in the safe side for warranty concerns.
If a finish is no good that is instant. It might become evident in an hour,a week or six months.
No amount of cure time past true hardening or waiting through that two week window will change that. If the finish is appropriate for its intended use it will perform properly as intended. If not it just won’t.
I hate to keep going on and on here .I don’t really care about JJP playfields at all but I know about coatings and playfields in general and there is just so much misinformation when it comes to the subject when it comes to pinball that it can be tough to keep my knowledge on the subject to myself.
Quoted from Concretehardt:I want to add to this question for Chris... what has your experience been with Mirco playfields in your restorations? I guess I am curious when Mirco went to this digital printed artwork and if you have worked with any of these playfields yet?
I am definitely not here to save the playfield industry. Just a knowledgeable observer to issues that are popping up.
My experience with all playfields from all manufacturers are that each one and I am referring to the actual playfield itself is individual and will have minor to major issues.
Some can be corrected others will have flaws that can be improved but not fully overcome without going back to the drawing board.
That stated. There are also manufacturers and certain eras that provide extra challenges or known inherent flaws.
Take the Williams System 11 era for example.
Clearcoating a non diamond plated version nine times out of ten is going to ruin the inserts.
The reason is there is something in that era that has made the original bond of screen print to insert very fragile and the clearcoat application exposes that by pulling the clear from the insert and into itself as it cures acting almost like stripper instead of coating.
My experience with Mirco playfields specifically is good enough that I will use them but I also shave them down and recoat them and put provisions in place as I build them.
Neither of those things are ideal to me but they are things I can and easily do so it’s better than salvaging trashed playfields.
Right now I am doing a BSD. I have shaved it down and recleared it. 
image (resized).jpg
As I assemble it I do the opposite of what JJP is doing. I don’t dare make the parts footprints bigger I make them smaller.
How?
Smaller washers.
We can use this area as an example. image (resized).jpg
I will over torque both star post. One will have a small washer under it the other will not image (resized).jpg
Tight. image (resized).jpg
Results. image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg
Big difference easy insurance. I will conduct the same experiment on a playfield direct from Mirco and see if it is any different to rule out my own coating.
Same process I just detailed on a direct off the shelf Mirco IJ. BC91F7C2-FF4F-415A-A46E-1D0D4E7D7AD0 (resized).jpegF99792D1-D511-4685-901F-D57977351827 (resized).jpeg
Tight. D41EA9E8-B4EE-48D9-90F6-B971E570562B (resized).jpeg
Results. BE820474-7979-483D-80BE-6740332A48DA (resized).jpegC7E881FC-3F2B-41E6-A05B-5D46E2EE3422 (resized).jpeg
Good to know I am not wasting my time reclearing them.
Quoted from Yelobird:Would it be possible to slightly replicate the issue by taping (hammer or screwdriver handle) the Side of those posts to replicate the constant side strikes of the ball to rubber and the constant side pull from the slings firing? Shame there isn't an area on that playfield with ink Below the clear to test these theories.
Correct no art under the post on BSD but that’s what I am working on with a known quality finish right now.
The real point I am trying to make is that at the very least they should be putting less pressure on the surface instead of more and that the coating being used off the shelf is highly impressionable so if the art is not bonded well,the top coat is soft and then on top of that you put even more surface pressure on it it’s going fail and fail quickly no matter what’s under there. The chances of it happening where there is ink is probably better.
I did do a small quick experiment on the off the shelf IJ out of curiosity.
What I see is that the post settle hard and easily into the surface. If it has the washer within the post then the footprint is off the ink. If not it isn’t.
I already know how to make these playfields work for my own purposes but at the very least the smaller footprint solution could be adapted and work for anyone.
83A58719-3786-4500-924F-64841927CE84 (resized).jpeg6E86C3FF-E77A-4074-93DF-673FBEE0C144 (resized).jpegimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg
Quoted from woody76:he also mentions less torque as well, but all this is just a patch. they need to dive in and fix the real issue.
Yes. All this is prevention and accommodation of the problem.
The solution is going to come down to a change in process and or chemistry.
When I reclear them I am changing the chemistry of the top coat. That’s all I can do at this stage.
I put the washers in there to take the other factors out of the equation and hand assembly the games.
I haven’t had any problems at all and I have no reservations about building games around these playfields with those provisions but it’s a process.
Quoted from Yelobird:Question for Mr #HEP Like your knowledge I also value the input from Peter in Hamburg who also makes great playfields. Some time ago (somewhere in all these threads) he tried to share his opinion on the situation being the preparation of the wood Before ink is applied. He mentioned how critical the sealer coat was to proper ink adhesion. Like playfield touch up do you suspect they are laying down a clear coat base Then applying art Or are they simply applying art then clear coating? Seems that one element is being missed or improperly done (rushed) hence most have no issue when no art is applied.
I am not sure on that without digging down into one but any type of finish and substrate has a known correct procedure that you have to follow if you expect it to last.
Just as an example If you are painting plastic you can do it properly by identifying the type.
Wash it
Cleaning it with the correct plastic cleaner.
Plastic prime it.
Now it can be refinished like anything else and it will last.
Alternatively you can go to Lowe’s and get a rattle can that says “Works on plastic” and just spray it. It might look exactly the same at first and was much cheaper and easier but it will not last.
Are proper procedures being done and who knows the difference at a glance?
Easy to be fooled when everything starts out nice and shiny.
Quoted from nicoy3k:How would the hep solve help with GnR? GnR doesn’t use star posts and most of the damage is on skinny posts and posts with relatively small washers already.
I was just about to address that it’s simple.
You chose a washer smaller than the post. Asplit lock washer is a good choice there.
That will put a smaller foot print and barely shim it off the surface.
It will dig a little harder due to the compression of the split.
These are all preventative not going to fix wrinkled ink
image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgQuoted from seenev:George Gomez thinks raising anything on the playfield even the smallest bit is atrocious.
May I humbly suggest sand blasting the art away from the posts?
Atrocious.
The same people that put a bunch of washers under plastics?
Even worse what happens when you install a bunch of plastic protectors.
I understand the dynamics of raising things like wireform ramps making the distance of the ball drop further but the minuscule amount these washers would raise anything would have zero effect on gameplay .
Whoever is coming up with these “fixes” are doing themselves and their customers more harm than good.
It’s like “Oh the ink is lifting around that 1/2 inch washer. I have the solution here’s a 3/4 incher on the house”
Two months later “We are sorry to hear that the ink has lifted around that 3/4 inch washer. Here is a 1 inch washer. “
Before you know it the entire playfield is going to be covered in wrinkles and big washers.
Quoted from Wheel_Jack:Thank you so much HEP. But if the playfield starts to chip in that small foot print won’t it just spread?
Or should this small foot print stop it from chipping?
It should stay within that footprint there’s no traffic there but I am just trying to help you guys mitigate the situation. It’s better to go smaller than bigger.
The real issue is deeper than the footprint in my eyes and I am not here to solve others problems they have never done or offered anything to me and I don’t care about their success or failure but I do care about people that might leverage themselves financially to get something to bring them a bit of pleasure and are getting screwed.
Quoted from nicoy3k:I don’t think you’re wrong and you know much more about this than I ever will but... i haven’t seen damage expand past larger washers whether they’ve been applied before or after damage. The only areas affected are those with no washers or smaller washers on them due to pooling and over torquing. I just think that if the smaller =better theory was correct we’d be seeing damage around larger washers rather than the opposite...
You should do whatever you are comfortable with and follow your own instincts.
I am not trying to talk you into it. I can assure you it is sound advice for a bad situation and that’s it.
If you look at the first pictures posted by the original poster you will see wrinkling well outside a large washer.
Had that same washer been used but with a smaller washer under that it would not have happened nor graduated beyond the sight of the larger one.
If you keep putting bigger and bigger washers directly on the playfield it will most likely continue to make bigger and bigger damage.
Get the pressure point as small as possible and cover it with something slightly larger to minimize the outcome.
Quoted from AFM95:HEP, I think you're onto something here. In about six months, JJP will recommend covering your 3+ inch damaged area with one of your old GNR CD's because you know, it matches the art.
Before:
[quoted image]
After:
[quoted image]
Appetite for destruction indeed!
You thought you would be in the Paradise City and found out Anything Goes!
Quoted from Concretehardt:Send it to HEP and have him work his Voodoo on it.
Thanks for the confidence. People have been asking me about this since Wonka.
I don’t have any time nor desire to inherit another company’s problem into my life anymore than is totally necessary to conduct my own affairs.
I am truly a man of leisure at least mentally and I value that lifestyle far above anything else.
All these band aids to overcome and mask a potentially bad product are stupid.
Make the playfields right!Someone clearly has the art ,ability and equipment .
Make it happen. Whoever’s job this is. Do it!
This is just a true summary of the many threads on the subject.
All the back and forth is worthless.
These are not normal outcomes or issues you would expect.
Wear from use?Yes I can expect that.
Dimples from use?Yes I can expect that.
Dulling overtime with use ?Yes I can expect that
Ink lifting and peeling off down to the bare wood around simply needed parts like post to build the game within months after said assembly let alone ever ?No this is not acceptable based on history alone.
I can teardown a woodrail from the 50’s that doesn’t have or show that.
It’s 70 years old!!
Stop it!!!
Fix it!!!
If this is your job please take it seriously and do it!Its clearly important,not normal and not optional. You will ultimately make your own life easier as well as others.
Quoted from PinMonk:HEP Unchained.
[quoted image]
Round 2! The EF Hutton of pinball playfields.
Thanks. I am not the grand poobah of pinball or anything but honestly I never paid any attention to these threads because I have little to no interest on the subject matter.
Once I studied it a bit I realized what level of horse shit this is or at least would be to me knowing what I do.
I use Mirco playfields and this doesn’t happen but I have provisions. I am individually fine tuning each playfield finish and hand assembling maybe 25 games a year at a similar price point. Older stuff not the latest thing.
I don’t know exactly where the fault lies. There are lots of variables.
What I do know is very simple. Post are a part of pinball playfields and have been for a very long time.The ball does enough damage on its own. If the stationary post can destroy their designated areas in a matter of months I am scared to death for the rest of the playfield in due time.
I want it fixed because it just what’s right and expected given a history of normal wear and tear as well as product expectations.
Quoted from Antron77:Mine with a Nov 2020 playfield date.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
Disaster!
No excuse.
Quoted from RA77:Agree, it appears that some playfields had better surface prep than others. There is no way the ink will adhere properly without the right surface. Also mentioned before over tourqe of posts will aggravate the problem.
@ HEP I love your work and amazing attention to detail. thank you for taking the time to provide your insight and experience with Mirco PF's.
If a JJP GnR owner approached you for your amazing playfield treatment, would it be effective for affected playfields ? As sanding top coat will never get to the wood surface under the art where the problem is apparent. Could your treatment hold it together ?
There is no definitive answer unfortunately. The pictures that have been posted to this thread show at least two separate issues in my eyes(disclaimer).
Some pictures show wrinkling down to the wood.
I would consider this a ground floor adhesion issue if it were my problem and I was trying to solve it.
Other pictures show the topcoat separating from the art.
That is a topcoat issue in my experience . Those are a bit more complex.
Is the topcoat too soft?
Maybe it’s actually hardening too much as it cures then cutting loose at the pressure points?
Is it just not interacting well with the midcoat/art?
Reclearing one of these would likely help at the very least but there is little point in putting a new roof on the house if the foundation is cracked.
I would gladly give advice if ask but I am not at all interested in getting actually involved in this fiasco.
Money isn’t everything.
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