what's the point of asking as it will never happen?

why buying again is a better question imho

Actually, on early run GNR LE’s this was offered as a solution by JJP.

I’m really only asking CE owners - would they give up their rare and in demand game if they could be made whole again at JJP rrp as if they never owned it in the first place?

I made a lot of noise in the summer of 2019 when my play field came apart and I took a lot of shit for it. Since then I've been posting like crazy telling people not to buy NIB games and I got even more shit for it. Now here we are with people taking delivery of games having paid WAY more than $10,000 and the same shit is happening. Unreal.

I work in the commercial office furniture industry. UV-cured clear coats are a thing…cures instantly when exposed to UV light. I’ve seen the process done at the factory…it’s pretty amazing.

Everyone should cancel their order and call JJP and tell them why they did it.

Of course there's the matter of that $1000 non-refundable deposit....

Since they are having manufacturing difficulties you should be able to get your deposit back.

lots of those people giving you shit are folks with the same game who don't want to lose money on resale. I agree 100%, stop buying this NIB crap and force them to do something or close up shop. There are plenty of second hand games around for the hobby to be successful and we still have Spooky, CGC, and others.

This is incorrect and exactly what I was talking about in my original post. To use your garage floor example, (thats probably an epoxy btw) picture if you had paint on your garage floor that wasn't adhered to the concrete well. Then you put your garage coating over that paint. The epoxy coating is going to lift up and bubble because its only adhered to the paint substrate which itself is not adhered well to the concrete. Another example is if you've ever seen a car that had a flaw or rust under the paint. You'll see those little bubbles start to form under the paint and the clearcoat. The clear is still hard.

The main problem here is not "soft clearcoat" and that myth really needs to go away.

Nice find: it just demonstrates the pinhead FOMO, and why companies don't take QC seriously.

January, 2020:

5 months later, sample size of 1.

It's kind of fun to roll the dice and win, just like Vegas. The situation truly sucks, but come on, the indignation when the dice come up snake eyes is slightly amusing.

Nothing, obviously, just got to keep buying!

But your purchase contributes less than no value to pinball quality. It's valuable to point this out.

I get that some people want to be the first on their block with the newest, latest bestest thing, so they rush out to buy a sight unseen NIB game. But this playfield crap ain't never gonna stop as long as so many people are plunking their money down without even knowing what they are buying.

If people waited until the game was released, looked at the game in person, said no way am I paying $10k for this POS with the playfield damage, things would of necessity change. But as long as people are in a mad rush to pay many thousands of dollars sight unseen, they are going to get ripped.

Its like a trendy restaurant that serves bad food but has a 2 month waiting list to get in. As long as the owner is filling every seat in the restaurant every night of the week and is booked out months in the future, he is never going to change his menu. If you really want change, STOP BUYING NIB SIGHT UNSEEN!

WTF does selling you junk accomplish?

Questions over questions

In the beginning JJP were unaware and not at fault.
At this point they plain don't give a shit, otherwise they would have accomplished what smaller outfits such as Spooky already have

I am definitely not here to save the playfield industry. Just a knowledgeable observer to issues that are popping up.
My experience with all playfields from all manufacturers are that each one and I am referring to the actual playfield itself is individual and will have minor to major issues.
Some can be corrected others will have flaws that can be improved but not fully overcome without going back to the drawing board.
That stated. There are also manufacturers and certain eras that provide extra challenges or known inherent flaws.
Take the Williams System 11 era for example.
Clearcoating a non diamond plated version nine times out of ten is going to ruin the inserts.
The reason is there is something in that era that has made the original bond of screen print to insert very fragile and the clearcoat application exposes that by pulling the clear from the insert and into itself as it cures acting almost like stripper instead of coating.
My experience with Mirco playfields specifically is good enough that I will use them but I also shave them down and recoat them and put provisions in place as I build them.
Neither of those things are ideal to me but they are things I can and easily do so it’s better than salvaging trashed playfields.
Right now I am doing a BSD. I have shaved it down and recleared it. image (resized).jpg

As I assemble it I do the opposite of what JJP is doing. I don’t dare make the parts footprints bigger I make them smaller.
How?
Smaller washers.
We can use this area as an example. image (resized).jpg
I will over torque both star post. One will have a small washer under it the other will not image (resized).jpg
Tight. image (resized).jpg
Results. image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg
Big difference easy insurance. I will conduct the same experiment on a playfield direct from Mirco and see if it is any different to rule out my own coating.

So another "I'm the only one fighting for you..." episode?

Pass...

This guy gets it
Simple physics

Solution for all of us:

Receive game

Pull all exposed posts

Ream the top 2mm of the hole at a 45 degree angle

Run CA down hole for hardening

Reassemble

Done

Being a Pirates owner ( went through some similar issues) and talkwing with some very knowledgable folks in the field, one of the MAJOR reasons this happens is the playfields themself. Now... I am NOT SCIENTIST, just a guy with some logical wiring.

Aside from JJP probably not using torque renches and used impact automitive grade guns to attach hardware haha.

"Apparently" Mirco playfields use an "accelerant" to speed the hardening process. This makes them hard enough to ship, handle, and not dimple with your finger tip - finger nail is a different story. The playfields (using this method) have not cured to reach maximum hardness because they have sat for weeks not months. Without the proper cure time the clear is fragile, and in turn is partially maluable. When hardware is twisted on the clear trists and or mushrooms, and wrecks the artwork its adhered to. Its like hot glue that has partially hardened.

I did a test on a replacement JJP Pirates playfield I received (documented in the Pirates Thread). Immediately after opening I attempted to push my finger nail into the playfield ... boom I was able to crease the playfield easily. It has since sat for 5 months and I tried it again... can't do it. Seems somewhat conclusive to me.

That's pooling, not chipping

As long as paint and clear are that soft you will have pooling.

Once they harden you will have chipping instead

Pick your JJP poison

That ship has sailed.... who's going to pay top dollar for machines with these F'd up PF's - ce or not

Let me just say.... your input on this is invaluable. I think most of us agree that the best thing for Micro and JJP to do is to have someone like you evaluate their process and put ideas forth to fix it.

Great info! Thanks for taking the time to explain some of your techniques.

Not saying its right or wrong, but I personally can't allow myself to enjoy the game knowing more and more damage continues showing up, which it does on these playfields.

Knowing I paid so much for a defective product that the manufacturer wont stand behind almost makes me physically ill, so I make the personal choice to just power off the game and unload it.

I wish I had the mentality where I could continue ripping the art off my new toy and it didnt bother me, but I just cant. I dont give a shit about fixing things, and understand maintaining a pinball machine, but this isnt that.

yes, many of the new games have some issues, but nothing like what we are seeing with these GNR CE's and LE's. I have a Dialed In LE and the playfield is perfect. None of my Stern's have had PF issues... just minor annoying things like the AIQ subway.

It is one thing to expect perfection and have something fall a little short... most products are not perfect. This GNR thing is a whole different thing.

Anyone else just feel like giving up on this hobby? How many issues have there been with games in the last few years? Insert ghosting, cabinet splitting, clear coat chipping, pooling, dimpling, etc etc etc. Getting a decent game is like winning the lottery.

I feel confident at this time buying a NIB Stern who resolved the chipping / pooling issue by removing artwork around all posts. They still have issues with ball guides occassionaly digging into playfields but it's nothing on the level of what JJP is experiencing.

Just got a NIB TMNT Premium last week and the playfield looks perfect. For now I've delayed my GNR LE order in hope the playfield issues get resolved. If they don't I'll just buy another Stern.

I want to buy a GNR LE, it's one hell of an awesome pin. However, I just feel uncomfortable buying at this time due to the amount of customers reporting issues. At these prices it's not acceptable and by buying a game from JJP right now I feel that I would only be supporting a bad business practice.

Question for the experts (are we all experts here? Haha). When I get my washers, would it be wise to put a small piece of Mylar over the affected area, then the washer, then the post?

My biggest concern isn’t just concealment, but prevention of it spreading and getting worse.

7CD40DC0-0E5A-40A0-8569-FEE635CC59C8 (resized).jpeg

I think what's missing here (with the Mirco holes) is ink. That would be an interesting test. One hole has ink, other no ink.

Thanks for doing those tests and posting the pictures!

Those tests pretty much prove that this issue can be avoided by removing artwork around all posts. I wonder however what the results of the test would be if done over a clear coated artwork area and then left in place for a few weeks? Post areas over clear coated artwork seem to be the only areas where pooling / chipping is occurring.

Tough call on that one. As the issue is already beyond a washer and up against a stainless rail you can only go so big to hide (no fix) the issue. For me, I would try to Carefully flatten that area (iron or otherwise) and apply a mylar ring. Consider it a flexible bandaid.... Hopefully that will retain any further spread but honestly a crap shoot with that damage sorry.

Interesting you bring up the UV inks, I just posted this in the JJP/Stern PF thread:

This is interesting:

Just for the heck of it, I looked up printers for large areas (i.e. a PF). Looks like 'UV ink' printers seem to be the trend to use nowadays. Apparently UV is used to instantly cure the ink, eliminating the solvent based ink problems of running/soaking in/etc., allowing for the vibrant, well defined colors. But UV ink is essentially an adhesive, unlike solvent based inks (that immediately caught my attention).

So I googled a little more about UV ink adhesion problems. One web site even mentions putting down a clear undercoat to improve adhesion: https://www.rolanddga.com/blog/2016/06/06/19/18/improve-adhesion-with-a-clear-undercoat

The UV lamp itself can be an issue, but I would think that could easily be resolved if that was the case. There's various UV inks too that can affect the outcome. Wood prep (i.e. flatness, contaminants) is an issue too.

A quick blurb on UV printing: https://www.perfectcolours.com/blog/2015/08/03/what-is-uv-printing/

I wonder if Mirco boxed themselves into a corner with a very expensive UV printer that can only handle proprietary UV inks, perhaps ones that aren't as well suited for wood? Just like your printer at home, probably none use a standardized print cartridge. And given the cost of a large UV printer - likely switching to an alternative ink other than the manufacture's products is a big 'no go'.

Here's a quick SnipIt of a random large UV flatbed printer:

pasted_image (resized).png

I can't blame you, I would do the exact same thing

Damn, that sucks. Had the same issues on my Wonka.

Would it be possible to slightly replicate the issue by taping (hammer or screwdriver handle) the Side of those posts to replicate the constant side strikes of the ball to rubber and the constant side pull from the slings firing? Shame there isn't an area on that playfield with ink Below the clear to test these theories.

Yes, it is mind blowing they have not brought on a professional consultant to handle this issue. Just sitting back and hoping mirco fixes it is insane.

all while prices keep skyrocketing.

If this ever happened to me I'd throw the Fucking Playfield right through the glass of the main lobby of JJP!!!

Or manually lodge it up Brett Abess’ ass.

It's kinda sad; but you definitely get more of a response with negativity over positivity...

Jersey Jack would call you a bad person at that point

for some reason in the pinball world, yes.

Wow, I'm waiting for someone to drop their machine off of a tall building. If you decide to take such drastic action, my recommendation would be to have cameras on it from every angle. You might make up for some of your loss with YouTube views. Oh, and make sure there's no one below. I guess my message is to those who are no longer able to enjoy rheir machine I get it, I am also very upset with the situation, but after a week or so and a few cover up fixes, I decided to throw it in the fck it bucket and start playing again. Guess what? It is still super fun to play! Try to enjoy what you have and realize that we are all in the same boat of disappointment. My fingers are still ctossed that JJP will come through in the end. Fingers crossed, but breath not held.

Correct no art under the post on BSD but that’s what I am working on with a known quality finish right now.

The real point I am trying to make is that at the very least they should be putting less pressure on the surface instead of more and that the coating being used off the shelf is highly impressionable so if the art is not bonded well,the top coat is soft and then on top of that you put even more surface pressure on it it’s going fail and fail quickly no matter what’s under there. The chances of it happening where there is ink is probably better.
I did do a small quick experiment on the off the shelf IJ out of curiosity.
What I see is that the post settle hard and easily into the surface. If it has the washer within the post then the footprint is off the ink. If not it isn’t.
I already know how to make these playfields work for my own purposes but at the very least the smaller footprint solution could be adapted and work for anyone.

83A58719-3786-4500-924F-64841927CE84 (resized).jpeg6E86C3FF-E77A-4074-93DF-673FBEE0C144 (resized).jpegimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg

@JJP going forward HEP probably just gave you a roadmap to fix the issue. You can make the check out to "High End Pins"

They need to bring him on as a consultant immediately until there is a real solution.

Did this not all start with the small posts, that had a smaller footprint? In HEPs case would it not just hide it under the star if it did pool or dig in to the playfield? I am not trying trying to question his expertise on pins I fully concede he has probably forgotten more than I will ever know. Just curious if it will address the issue on smaller posts.

I think you may have answered your own question.

It’s just insurance so that if damage does occur, it’s hidden and won’t affect aesthetics.

Don’t forget to throw in the
“Tomahawked playfield’s”

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/planetary-pinballchicago-gaming-listened-thank-you#post-3680450