Quoted from Rarehero:Lol, the VR true believers have been saying this for decades. Look, I get it - it’s very cool. It’s competing with video games though, and people still love video games too much to make a switch to VR en masse. It will remain a niche with very passionate fans always trying to convince me to use it.
VR is cool NOW, grandpa. Get back to bitching about price hikes on pinball like the rest of us.
Quoted from chuckwurt:a million dollars.
You mean 1 mm
If the game sucked and wasn't selling, wouldn't you expect there to be consideration of a price reduction? As with many non-essentials, you can often buy or order now for a known price or sit back and wait to see what the market bears. There is not now, nor has there ever been as far as I am aware, any guarantee that the initial launch price will never be changed in any direction. I'm sorry for those who will not now order the game as a result; you are missing out on something awesome. But I get that, at some price point, everyone will eventually become a non-buyer. JJP apparently feels that there are enough buyers at a 10% or whatever price increase to meet the supply they intend to produce. And on the next machine, people will take notice that ordering early will lock in the launch price. As history has shown, designing and producing pinball machines isn't easy and certainly not always profitable or sustainable. We want JJP to continue to succeed and JJP should capitalize on its success. You are free to disagree, but I do not have any problem with JJP honoring the original price on pending orders while raising it future orders.
Quoted from Rarehero:1000 people bought ECLE for $6500. More than "a few".
6,500 is the top line sales number. They might only get 5,500 because distributor gets their cut. The 1,000 could have been made within a year to 2 years
Quoted from JonCBrand:I'm on the list for an LE. if the $1000 bump is true I'm out.
No you're not.. 
. And JJP knows it.
I’m waiting for the punchline.
JJP will come out and surprise us all with an official statement informing they are using the price hike to fire up an additional production line to clear the backlog!
Buyers will receive their GnR LEs soonest 
Quoted from Rarehero:1000 people bought ECLE for $6500. More than "a few".
ECLE was limited to 1000 games.
When they started taking deposits early in 2011 the price was 6500.
By the time I got in, October 2011 the price was already 7500 for the ECLE.
Then the 75th anniversary edition RRWOZ was announced around November 2013 @ 9K.
A lucky few(few hundred?), who gambled on an unknown company got their game for 6500.
Quoted from player-one:I do not have any problem with JJP honoring the original price on pending orders while raising it future orders.
This isn't "honoring." LEGALLY they have to. You can't set a price, have a party send a deposit to reserve it, then raise the final price. It's not honorable. It's the law.
Listen this increase is to gouge the non-pinheads. Pinheads have already pre-ordered. New people was have ZERO clue that this was arbitrarily raised for them.
Is it crappy? Yes. Is $1K an arbitrary increase? Of course. But it largely will make your $9500 game more valuable, until the market gets flooded with GNR LEs.
Quoted from Indusguys:Why can't someone from JJP explain within reason why they jacked the price, I think we deserve that at least. Just jacking up the price with no explanation makes me realize JJP thinks I'm a jackass!
Because they can.. AND everyone will keep buying. Pinsanity..
Quoted from V8haha:Pigs get slaughtered...
I think the quote you are looking for is:
Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered
Quoted from Rarehero:1000 people bought ECLE for $6500. More than "a few".
Not quite 1000. Probably about the last 200 were bought at $7500 like me.
Quoted from Guinnesstime:This isn't "honoring." LEGALLY they have to. You can't set a price, have a party send a deposit to reserve it, then raise the final price. It's not honorable. It's the law.
BM66 Elvira
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:BM66 Elvira
Is your deposit refundable? JJP deposits are not (usually). You should legally be able to back out.
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:BM66 Elvira
Didn't Stern cancel the orders?
Perhaps JJP could have done the same.
Has anyone ever seen terms of sale from JJP or their distributor?
Quoted from smokinhos:Because they can.. AND everyone will keep buying. Pinsanity..
not everyone, just the idiots
DNB shows Stern’s a 9 million dollar company. I’m not saying DNB is accurate to the dollar but they’re fairly accurate. When we throw numbers around and take them at face value, ie Stern has a 5,000 game back log. Dealer cost on a Stern pro is around $5,300 give or take. Multiply that by 5,000=26.5mm or about 3 times their annual revenue. Some times numbers just don’t add up. In this case I believe DNB is really wrong and Sterns around a 25mm company. This makes their back log reasonable. This should give us guidance towards other manufacturers.
Quoted from fnosm:Only time will tell.
Money in the market,( blood in the water), either way that draws attention and encourages more to go for it. It is how markets work. Excess profits = more suppliers. At some point the market will be saturated and mfgs will have to compete on price, hopefully driving price down.
This is where i think pinball is different. It is too low volume to encourage investment in optimization to enable aggressive pricing. The blood in the water allows vendors to charge high prices and thus enable new parties to get into the market. But when times get tough, rather than optimize, they will just bail. The volume isn’t there to support the economies of scale to use volume (or investment) to drive down their costs.
High prices and low volume make for opportunistic entries to the market. It doesn’t necessarily mean new players that will push price competition.
The last decade has shown the opposite - every new player is pushing higher... and its tough for anyone to get established and make lower prices work (ap, jjp, dr) because the volume increase isn’t appearing.
I was mainly replying to the thought “More pinball is better than less pinball”. I think that is highly dependent on what they bring to the mix. The last decade has been... “new price points means everyone gets to raise prices”.
Quoted from rai:Woz started at $6500 and now look at it.
Yea didn't they get bailed out after that initial release? Should have been $8500k out of the gate with all the new wizardry.
Quoted from rai:Woz started at $6500 and now look at it.
More like... Jack thought 6500 was the top of the market... look at how much even he under estimated the market.
Quoted from Yesh23:DNB shows Stern’s a 9 million dollar company. I’m not saying DNB is accurate to the dollar but they’re fairly accurate. When we throw numbers around and take them at face value, ie Stern has a 5,000 game back log. Dealer cost on a Stern pro is around $5,300 give or take. Multiply that by 5,000=26.5mm or about 3 times their annual revenue. Some times numbers just don’t add
Quoted from Guinnesstime:This isn't "honoring." LEGALLY they have to. You can't set a price, have a party send a deposit to reserve it, then raise the final price. It's not honorable. It's the law.
This "legal' part isn't wholly accurate, but that is irrelevant to the point. JJP is not acting dishonorably to any degree. Unless something has changed, pending orders are being filled at the launch price and if you didn't order at the launch price, you have no right to expect to always be able to purchase the game at launch price. You can be angry about the price now being higher, but JJP is doing nothing wrong in raising the price. JJP is a business. And in this instance, they obviously feel it makes business sense to do it.
Quoted from Yesh23:DNB shows Stern’s a 9 million dollar company. I’m not saying DNB is accurate to the dollar but they’re fairly accurate. When we throw numbers around and take them at face value, ie Stern has a 5,000 game back log. Dealer cost on a Stern pro is around $5,300 give or take. Multiply that by 5,000=26.5mm or about 3 times their annual revenue. Some times numbers just don’t add up. In this case I believe DNB is really wrong and Sterns around a 40mm company. This makes their back log reasonable. This should give us guidance towards other manufacturers.
You are valuing a company based on future revenue from backlog orders? Wow. No expenses or debt factor in?
Quoted from Rarehero:Lol, the VR true believers have been saying this for decades. Look, I get it - it’s very cool. It’s competing with video games though, and people still love video games too much to make a switch to VR en masse. It will remain a niche with very passionate fans always trying to convince me to use it.
Not sure what this has to to with pinball or JJP raising their prices, but...
No one has been saying that for decades - the relevant players in VR have always been quite pragmatic about technical obstacles and adoption rates that could realistically be expected, believe me on this. Now certain media types and people trying to raise VC money were a different story, but those in it for real have always known better.
It's a long term investment but it is accelerating more quickly than anticipated - the Oculus Quest, in particular, has broken ceilings in convenience and affordability. General adoption is coming, even if I don't think quite to the level of truly mass devices for at least another decade.
With that said, I also disagree that "other forms of entertainment are on notice." VR is not competing with flat TV video games, much less with pinball (other than at a very superficial level), it is a different medium and it only makes sense when approached as such. It will not replace other media, it will expand the landscape in entertainment as well as countless other fields.
You should come down to OC for some pinball and VR... I will set you up with Lone Echo. If that does not change your perception of VR as a mind expanding platform for storytelling and entertainment I will give you my GNR LE.
(Just kidding... I would not do that now that it's worth an extra $1K!) 
Quoted from skinsfan44:You are valuing a company based on future revenue from backlog orders? Wow. No expenses or debt factor in?
I meant to say 25mm, not 40mm. I’m just trying to gauge top line revenue. It’s got nothing to do with valuation
We also don't know what is really causing the price increase.
Sure, maybe Jack is thinking "hey...these idiots will pay any amount for this machine - so let's bump the price."
But maybe it's "hey...we're going to need to build an extra 2000 of these...call our supplier and tell them to order 2000 more cabinets and playfields."
"uhhh, Jack...they say that the price of the wood has gone up again...and so has the cost of the copper wire...and if we want the plastics done quickly, we need to pay extra to get moved to the front of their production line..."
Most likely, it's some combination of the two.
I don't see the problem. It seems like those who ordered and paid the deposit aren't affected. JJP probably left money on the table for pricing the way they did when released.
Everyone who's in already has some appreciation and better resale value. Those that didn't order can either pay the new price, find a used model or take a pass.
Cheers
Quoted from chuckwurt:[quoted image]
That is truly hilarious - why would you mix Roman and Arab numerals just to make something clear (like 10M) into something ambiguous like 10mm? It's not like Roman numerals are some sort of international standard. Not to mention there is no such a thing as a lower case Roman numeral.
Last I knew JJP operates in the United States. Not only is the United States governed by a Capitalism system, it would seem that, for many, "Socialism" is a dirty word. So, what exactly is the issue of a privately held company in the United States raising their price on a product they are selling??
Keep on Rockin' in the Free World!
Quoted from Dr-pin:Here in sweden with the new price, freight, vat, macron-tax a new gnrle will come at 17500 usd.
I wouldn’t spend that with your money.
Quoted from player-one:This "legal' part isn't wholly accurate, but that is irrelevant to the point. JJP is not acting dishonorably to any degree. Unless something has changed, pending orders are being filled at the launch price and if you didn't order at the launch price, you have no right to expect to always be able to purchase the game at launch price. You can be angry about the price now being higher, but JJP is doing nothing wrong in raising the price. JJP is a business. And in this instance, they obviously feel it makes business sense to do it.
I couldn't agree more...business is business....the new JJP is all about maximizing profits, which is totally fine in my book. What I'm really curious about is future pricing....If they raised the LE pricing to almost $11K delivered does this mean the CE's will be $15K delivered? At those prices I'll stop buying NIB and just be patient and find a nice HUO model locally. Historically almost all (except POTC) JJP games have dropped significantly in price as soon as u opened the box (WOZ, Hobbit, DI, Wonka).....GNR was a massive hit for JJP
Quoted from apessino:You should come down to OC for some pinball and VR... I will set you up with Lone Echo. If that does not change your perception of VR as a mind expanding platform for storytelling and entertainment I will give you my GNR LE.
I appreciate the offer, but plenty of VR lovers have tried to make me strap shit to my face. It’s never going to happen...especially shit that's been strapped to someone else’s face during a pandemic. I wish it success for those who enjoy it, but it’s not for me.
Quoted from apessino:That is truly hilarious - why would you mix Roman and Arab numerals just to make something clear (like 10M) into something ambiguous like 10mm? It's not like Roman numerals are some sort of international standard. Not to mention there is no such a thing as a lower case Roman numeral.
Maybe the "$" key was broken on someone's keyboard?
Quoted from Guinnesstime:This isn't "honoring." LEGALLY they have to. You can't set a price, have a party send a deposit to reserve it, then raise the final price. It's not honorable. It's the law.
Listen this increase is to gouge the non-pinheads. Pinheads have already pre-ordered. New people was have ZERO clue that this was arbitrarily raised for them.
Is it crappy? Yes. Is $1K an arbitrary increase? Of course. But it largely will make your $9500 game more valuable, until the market gets flooded with GNR LEs.
But didn't Stern do this exact thing?
Quoted from Dr-pin:Here in sweden with the new price, freight, vat, macron-tax a new gnrle will come at 17500 usd.
Yeah but you get free health care and lots of other perks.
Stop bitchin' and start buyin!!!!
Quoted from FalconDriver:Ok so are the SE now priced along side Stern's Premiums or they above now?
Above by almost $600 after you factor in shipping, which is included in the Stern price.
Quoted from PokerJake:Above by almost $600 after you factor in shipping, which is included in the Stern price.
Who cares?????? I have owned mostly Sterns, love a bunch of their machines - but this fanboy stuff is nonsense!!! Consumers benefit from competition. PERIOD!!! So Stern, JJP, CGC, Spooky, American Pinball, and all the others.....keep duking it out!!!
Quoted from Myles32:Guess I will never own a JJP game
That's not a bad thing
Quoted from PokerJake:That's not a bad thing
Agreed. I've bought 2 and currently own zero. And I doubt I'll ever buy again.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Yeah but you get free health care and lots of other perks.
Stop bitchin' and start buyin!!!!
Not free, but tax payer funded health care. I would rather just pay lower taxes and buy my own health insurance.
"Here in sweden with the new price, freight, vat, macron-tax a new gnrle will come at 17500 usd." - This is fucking insane. He has to pay almost $10k more than us just because his fucking government is taxing the hell out of him.
Quoted from romulusx:Now quit gloating and get your Hazoleo over to the Zeppelin thread and defend your box of flippers!
Ok.
Whats Hazoleo? I get Jacoff, Did u consider HazHole?
Anyway I'm not a big Zeppelin fan so its not even a pin I'm interested in. Personally if JJP has to raise the price they that's what happens, maybe GnR isn't doing what it needs to or the bottom line isn't covering their nut right now. We all have the option to not buy these pins.
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