Off topic but Holly Wow man what a Huge and impressive collection. Wheres that "Bow" emoji. Can't help but think your electric meter must scream when you fire up that fun land. Impressive.

Right on Dave. One thing that keeps me buying some games NIB is that many seem to hold their value okay still (because new prices keep going up). But the more expensive they get, you start asking "why am I under the hood more than playing this damned thing"? until you get everything working right when in theory that shouldn't be the case with something "new". The answer is simple "because pinball machines are a pain in the ass". As the prices rise, people feel they should be perfect out of the box, and they never will be. But good playing, reliable, dialed in 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000's games are every bit as fun and becoming harder to find so it's hard to want to sell some of those for the new stuff.

GNR is fine, but the rules need a lot of work yet. Everyone is mesmerized by the light show and the volume increase when you start a song I guess. Same mushy flippers and weak slings as all JJP games, and really, really unbalanced scoring, long multiballs, etc. Not really a "player's" game at the moment, more "it's like you're at a concert!!!"......

Hope all's well in NZ!

Pinside... We will not pay over 10K for a Pinball, But we will pay over 9K for a Stern LE and 1K of mod's

Go to YouTube and type in: rotordave.

If you turned all of those machines on at the same time here in Australia the electricity meter would spin like a top, you could fan yourself on the air coming from the disc. Simply marvellous collection.

Interesting....

And you say this as an owner.

How are you finding the shots?

Man....I work in Warrendale! If it weren't for Covid-19, and well...work, I'd gladly pay admittance to play your games!

Um....

I did get the old "serpentine belt" is busted for inspection once!

Screenshot_20210220-174913_YouTube (resized).jpg

Yeah, I'm not into the whole rose-colored glasses because I own the game mentality. Been doing it for a while (playing, collecting, etc.) and most machines, in my opinion, are either over-rated or under-rated. I know that sounds counter intuitive but what I mean is, the separation between the "BEST GAME EVER!!!" games and the "WORST GAME EVER!!!" is far less than most people care to admit. So when everyone declares a game "BEST EVER!!!!" before the scoring even has balance and there are missing modes, etc., they are excited for the experience more than objectively considering the pinball game itself. Again, just my opinion.

GNR is a lot of fun, and yes, the light show really is the best ever. But as a pinball "game", the code needs a lot of love yet. And there's no helping the mushy flippers. Really, 60's EMs with 2" flipper bats have more snap than JJP flippers. I can't understand why they can't get that right.

I host pinball nights a lot (pre-COVID), and will again once we're past all this. I'll msg you when I do.

The shots are alright. I like the middle spinner by the scoop shot, and the upper loop is repeatable (but not worth anything). Otherwise, it's pretty left ramp focused, at least on the LE. Hit the left ramp, starting "Throw the lights" multiball instantly. That multiball requires ramp shots so keep shooting those and you'll collect band members with misfires and/or patch collects (from the left ramp). Lock balls on the left ramp. Qualify the bass on the left ramp. Start the amp multiball from the left ramp. Choose the Gibson patch so you don't need to bother with the spinning record the rest of the game. Start song. Flail. Hit scoop when green for add a ball. Cash out early on the first one for extra ball. Collect the 4 "sponsor" patches (left ramp) for extra ball. Repeat.

That goes back to, most people can find something fun about any game if they are just throwing a few quarters at it. It becomes an entirely different mentality when it comes to throwing thousands at it.

Ok sorry try: RotorDave Arcade

indeed as JJP aren't going to catchup until past the next stern and cgc release so that lock in super valuable.

Lol.

Try rotordavenz.

It’s not that bad ... when all 110 (ish) are running (that’s a few times a year) the power for the day is circa $80. That includes all the normal AC and HWC etc etc as well. Pinballs don’t draw that much when they’re running.

Changing all the games to LEDs and also the whole house to LED lighting did make a big difference. Used to be over $100 a day. Plus the room is wayyy cooler. Makes a big difference.

rd

What’s happening with long term collectors like me and Joe (he has 60+ machines including machines on site) and plenty of others is we are getting “over it”

As per Rareheros post early in the thread, we’ve seen games go up in the last few years to almost double what they were ten years ago. With nothing else added.

In NZ, Tron LE new was $9900 NZD ... the new LEs are $18,500 NZD.

The last new LE I bought was Metallica LE for $12,000 NZD. That was my limit. All my newer Sterns are used, and I got a couple cheaper with IFPA rewards before NZ got cut off from that.

If the manufacturers cut off the long term guys, the guys that have kept the hobby alive for the last twenty years, who’s gonna keep them going when all the current batch of rich lawyers/doctors/etc etc get bored and move onto the next hot trend?

rd

That is very true and why you should really like (love) the theme of the game and not think about assets and value. All of that is subjective as is the theme in regard to whether it is a good one or not. Price matters, but for any amount of money you're going to spend, you should love what you're getting at any price, high or low. I personally buy a machine with the intent to never sell it, that is why I have so few and am not constantly buying. I am always looking and glad there is such a large variety to choose from and more manufactures of machines. The last machine I almost purchased was a Houdini, I like the theme and the game looks fun, but the problems with the power supply (now fixed) and other things kept me on the sideline. The only machine I sold that I kind of miss is Theatre of Magic and I'm in on an Alien.

Ah grasshopper you have learned well.

Appreciate the share. Along with the quality, content, and diversity it’s incredible to think how hard it was (and $$$) to amass such a collection. May be judging wrong but I have to imagine it’s 100 times harder to get titles in a country like NZ. In Chicago I can find most any title in days, by you it must be a constant hunt. Thanks again for sharing.

In the 90s and 2000s there were a lot of ex route 90s games and SYS11s coming up here. They were all cheap - most of my SYS11s were around $1000 each, WPCs were 1200-2500 bucks.

But now they’re all in peoples houses, the prices have skyrocketed.

Pretty much all of my pre 1985 games have come from the States. Again, bought most of them for $500-1000 bucks each some years ago, before prices went crazy.

So yeah, there is a bunch of dough in that room, but not as much as a “new on the scene” collector would think.

rd

What's another $1000 when the modern pin collector has pockets seemingly infinitely deep and needs the newest, shiniest toy in their collection? This market bubble is only going to keep expanding, this really shouldn't be surprising. If JJP had increased the price before pre-orders were open I bet nobody would say a word, but I do agree changing the price after people make pre-orders is scummy.

I don't know, I heard they are honoring the original price for people who preordered before the hike. That seems ok to me?

I didn't read much into this issue. That's totally cool then, I thought they were changing the price for the people who had preordered as well. The rest of my statement still stands.

I think I would bet against your second statement also lol. Based on the annual "Stern raised the price 100$" I am pretty sure Any change to price at any time would have Many words of wisdom shared.

Um-huh... Says the guy with ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY pinball machines.

Things change. They’ve amassed over 30 years. They were mostly cheap.

They could all go tomorrow. No stress. Sold another one yesterday.

We have now gone pretty minimalist ... We’ve got rid of almost everything surplus now, except the pinball machines. It’s great.

The reason I keep the pins:

1: they give me something to tool around with in my downtime

2: I don’t need the money

3: where else could we hold the large NZ tournaments we have? There’s nowhere else here in NZ with the room or the pins.

4: I would have a very large empty room if they went.

rd

These days?

This is hardly anything new. Companies using FOMO as a marketing tool has been going on since forever.

I'm just sitting here waiting for my LE to ship. Thinking about my $200 deposit that is now worth $1200. Let's see, that's a 500% increase in 4 months. Not bad JJP. Thank you! Random thoughts.

How much of that complaining translates to lost sales? I would wager not much

I think it will. If not in the short term, 3-6 months from now.

I would wager the opposite.

The increase shows that JJP will appreciate customers in thin times, and turn their back when times are good. This is their first hit since Woz. The tides will turn again, and trust me, it will not bode well for them. I am out on all future JJP games on principle, not to mention the distro BS they pulled. In an industry like this, keeping customers is going to be important when it swings. Stern is getting just as bad, and the used market is already getting crazier in response to these companies' greed.

Watch a Jeff Bezos YouTube video from the 90s about customer service and ask yourself if jjps decision is wise for the business. It seems that everyone is looking short term...

You're very kind with the offer! I didn't intend on receiving such a nice gesture, was just being a goober!

Do you feel the flippers feel more mushy or the same as any other JJP game?

I think people always feel comfort justifying a large purchase like that. It's hard not to, but in reality it's a product, a piece of media or art, and all of those have strengths and weaknesses. I'm glad your thinking is balanced, both appreciative and constructive!

Thanks for the info Dave!

Man, I looked up Pukekohe, and it looks so gloriously beautiful! You guys even have a circuit track! How cool!

Not that I want disruption to new pinball, but I do wish more people expressed this sentiment.

I saw the Pinball Star email today, advertising just 3 SE's left, at $7750, and thought how unfair that pricing is, that their entry/operator "friendly" model didn't even get a scaled increase. The fact that that game wasn't kept at $7500 or lower only puts me off even more. The "only 3 left" sparks that fomo in me, only to think how royally fucked I'd be for $1,000 if I bit. Just an awful set of thoughts in a few seconds there.

I love JJP games. I don't love a lot of JJP decisions.

Oh well, life moves on, and $$$ stays in wallet.

The same as all JJP games. A lot of people like the feel. I've never gotten used to them. The CGC remakes feel the same way.

And Rick and Morty. The B/W flipper mechs when married with P-ROC or other systems just don't feel right.

I love my R&M and the flippers aren't AWFUL, but they are not great (for several reasons). Fortunately, Spooky is working on it and I'm pretty certain they will figure it out.

You'd think that in 2021, pinball companies would be able to nail the flippers...arguably the most important aspect of a pinball machine! Sigh.

121 Pin Minimalist? Man and I thought 2 pins in my living room was being a Maximalist. I’m definitely doing it wrong

Stuff isn't important once you have all of the stuff, apparently.

Why does everyone behave as if these companies should all sit on their hind quarters and “take one for the team” so wealthy pinball collectors can buy on the cheap?

It’s not like these games cost $1800 NIB a few months ago and JJP jacked the price up to $10.5k. And it’s not like these machines are akin to a wonder drug that will save millions from dying, and JJP is turning their back on the poor and selling it for $2,000 a week.

We’re talking about a coin operated amusement device that already cost north of $9,000. Nine Grand - Plus, folks. Unless you’re a person that’s going into debt over buying one of these (which any reasonable person would say is a bad idea), then you’re talking about something that’s insanely expensive and completely unnecessary.

Next time you’re with non-pinball friends, trying telling them how you’ve been so wronged because a pinball machine that you were going to pay $9.5k for (plus tax and shipping) was increased to $10.5k.

Guaranteed that most everyone will look at you like your crazy and detached, and no one will join the chorus of what a travesty it is.

Like it or not, JJP is a business that needs to make money to stay in business. And right now, they are selling a very desirable item that is going to make them money. Much like an automobile manufacturer, they can and will raise prices when they see fit. Car manufacturers do this all of the time... There’s no government mandated day where prices can only be increased. They’ll do it when it best suits their business.

If there comes a time to when demand falls, they will adjust.

It’s just the way it is.

I’ve been in the hobby long enough to see a lot of these price increases. Up until 2020, I always thought “this is it. We’ve reached the ceiling.” But guess what? That ceiling gets shattered every time. And there’s always a chorus of angry people, and most say “I’ll never buy again... unless they make my dream theme.”

I don’t like these increases. Of course, no customer is thrilled about the prospects of paying more. But I think I’ve come to terms with them. And I don’t think we’ve seen the ceiling, because I’ve thought we’ve hit the ceiling every few months for the last 6 years. I thought the pandemic would crush these companies... not only have they survived, but they are stronger than ever.

At the end of the day, we should all be thankful that a manufacturer like JJP is still selling games. If you can’t afford one or if you think it costs more than it’s value, then DON’T BUY IT. Wait. Play it at shows and enjoy it at locations. Or wait for the used market. But this whole “they’ve wronged us, those bastards” schtick is out of bounds. JJP owes its customers (people who have actually paid money for NIB games) great customer service and game support. From my experience, they’ve done that. But they definitely aren’t some charity that needs to scrape by while rich clients bitch about cash on a nonessential luxury item.

I get it... I was just rib’n ya.

So you think JJP was losing money and "taking one for the team" with their original price structure from a few months back? You are saying a 1k increase overnight is just a typical business as usual price increase that everyone should just shrug off and not discuss?

This discussion is about how much longer the average buyer is willing to take these increases before enough say no more and a glut of unsold pins forms. Many of us are contending we are already or almost there which I contend will become apparent as we emerge from Covid and consumer spending shifts. If that happens, is it good for JJP's business and bottom line?

These companies can charge whatever the hell they want. No one is debating that. Doesn't mean we'll continue to buy, though.

Uh, I work with people that aren't contractors that have purty, super duper expensive trucks, that could also have cheaper trucks or a small sedan that might function just as well.

People don't want to live reasonably. We all want to act like we can afford things we can't. And sometimes we lunge at those things, be it sensible or not.

You can discuss whatever you want. That's part of the hobby and something that keeps things interesting. But this notion that JJP has somehow wronged anyone is ridiculous. They haven't hurt anyone one.

As for this "average buyer," who exactly is that? Do you have hard and fast data on what best describes a buyer that's will to spend $7K... $8k... $10K... on a pinball machine? I don't.

Prices are jacked up EVERYWHERE. Look at the used market. Pricing has radically changed just in the last 10 months. Maybe JJP figured out their market pricing structure then, and is changing to meet the market now!

As far as I can tell, a company like Stern will announce a $1K topper. I laugh and think "Who would pay that???"... next thing you know, it's sold out.

I get the fact that you are out on buying a $10K game. I actually applaud you for drawing the line. It's a responsible thing to do. But that doesn't mean JJP needs to adjust its pricing. You have not seen the last of "higher than you ever thought possible" prices. And, hopefully, someday prices may fall some to open the door to more buyers. Who knows?

Don't forget what happened with WOZ. That nearly killed JJP... they were WAY under priced. Would have been a real shame for them to have gone under... look at all of the amazing games we never would have experienced!

Of course. You can find examples of this all over the place. But if you're digging yourself into debt over it, don't expect people to feel sorry for them.

People may not want to live reasonably... or within a budget. I certainly wouldn't go into debt over a pinball machine.

JJP hasn't wronged anyone. My guess is they simply raised the price to slow down future orders sense their production capacity is so low. At 50 games per week they are probably booked out 6 months, and my guess is they want to release their next title. My question is future title pricing.

We'll have to wait and see. But if the past tells us anything: if we see a number that's crazy, there's a good chance that plenty of buyers will fall in line.

I thought we'd hit a breaking point when Stern Pro's hit $5K and quality of parts and materials appeared to take a considerable hit. I've been wrong every step of the way. And now, the level of demand is through the roof. Some people think that COVID demand is driving the bus. And that might be a big part of it. But, also, there are a lot of GenX-ers that have cash and want to put a game or two in their basement. Those folks probably aren't hanging out on Pinside... in fact, I'd bet that a fraction of the pinball buyers in the world post actively on this site.

actually I see monopolys for 3400 lately. RBION's going under 4. There are middle of the road titles that just don't command big dollars.

I hope they do so I can purchase on the second hand market. My guess is family entertainment will drop off the cliff when this Covid mess is over. I think many will allocate funds to other items, trips, etc....time will tell

I'm confused as to what your point is here. Are you sayjng a 3400 monopoly isnt "commanding big dollars?"

This COViD situation certainly seems to have created a greater divide between the upper and lower class in the US... and further eroded the middle class. Not good, IMO. I guess it all depends on who the bulk of the buyers are.

I will say this: I miss the days when Stern would announce a new game and I knew there was a good chance when I could buy a pro for $4400 with a shaker or mirror blades thrown in. I also miss the days of being able to buy a BSD for $1700!

If those days were still here, prices would be low, but the NIB market would be almost nonexistent.

I think it will eventually slow as pinball loses favor at locations like bars. But, like I said before, I’ve been wrong about this at most every turn.

We all complain about the price increases , but are any of us lowering the prices on the pins we sell? Market will always set the price

Agreed. I just think the market is going to level off and some of the inventories of these pins will increase as we emerge Covid. Admittedly, I may be wrong.

My guess is your not wrong....when I see a semi restored FT selling for close to $8K+ its a sign to get out of the hobby

If I'm honest, I swore off ever owning a JJP game again after owning a WOZ for a year and dealing with non stop led board and mechanical issues. I've stuck to that and don't plan on buying another anytime soon.

With that said, I hope they remain afloat as it is good for the hobby. This niched industry needs more, not less competition.