Dude - your constant “stuff” is getting very, very old.

Please stop it.

I’m sure you can find something constructive to do.

rd

What, the doted line above?
Maybe throw another shrimp on the barby. Classic New Zealand joke, eh!

And I've only posted on this thread like 6 times... hmm, blow off a little steam with some rugby maybe? Hockey for us!
Anyways, GnR is worth the extra dow!

No, in general. The whole site.

Or, just keep doing what you’re doing.

Over to you. Your legacy.

rd

All I know is this is my first NIB couldn’t have picked a better pin to hold that title .Now if I can just get it !! Almost there

Dear Rear Driver, happy valentines day.

Legacy..lol. If you don't ask for more, you won't get more. You don't ask, you don't get. We asked for more, demanded more... and now we have JJP. Legacy. Hopefully Stern's listening right now. Up your game big G!

Congrats .
It's the best game currently available by far and is well worth the wait .

I’m the foreman of my dealership. Customers love me, I love them. My men respect me cuz I’m the first one in, last to leave. I never stop until I’m exhausted everyday. Pulled their asses from the fire more times than I can count. They and myself are in the trenches all the time. I consider them my brothers and equals except for mechanic experience. Cars are fixed right first time, cleaned and delivered with courtesy no matter how rude or angry customers get occasionally.

My manager sits there all he time and never goes above and beyond. He knows little to nothing about cars. ( lol). His wife is owners personal secretary, pieces fitting yet? Funny, charming but otherwise he’s useless.

Control is an illusion. For me, and for him. Engine can fall off a lift and I’m done without knowing I just died. I die his jobs done.

I live my life like I can try my best and lose my life tomorrow. Can be stressful and exciting but I’m always prepared.

Man if it was really so simple it would make for a great Netflix series starring the evil emperor Gary dominating his pinball minions.

From a business standpoint it’s probably more like a series of plans get submitted and design teams working with lisc holder to come up with something all parties are in agreement with making. Add in some last min lisc concerns and limitations and poof you get a design. Then the stern team goes at it to salvage the remaining meat from the bone and make a sellable game.. JJP had a much different experience with GNR with the main lisc actively involved with the design and making sure it was a great pin. I wouldn’t bash on Gary for LZ as I am sure the limitations made it difficult to do everything that Steve wanted and this would not be the first time Steve had a difficult lisc. It’s probably not the most flashy design but it does shoot good and is a typical Richie game so I am in on a premium and will have this next to GNR without question.

Excellent point of view. People are underestimating this game, game play is very fast and fun,the light show is very good, of course the music is great!

I was told there was 6 designs, this one was the cheapest to make... it even got down to more colour is more expensive to print, no outside artist was hired.
Is it true? who knows for sure, but I wouldn't say impossible.. Anyways, the ones that were disappointed are coming together and making it the way they want it. I'll post some video's on pinside once were done. Still suppose to feel lucky we finally got an LZ, am I right! Cheers and keep flippin!

Both of you.

Hahaha! Beelzeboob!!! Cheers buddy!

I wonder how JJP's new pricing for GNR is working out for them? Since the price increase reports on here of new sales have been extremely low, maybe 0.

Personally I think JJP has exceeded market clearing price with the new $10,500 GNR LE price. Someone at JJP likely thought they could increase the price of GNR while still retaining the same rate of sales / demand but I don't see that happening. With every price increase more potential customers are priced out of the market and I think they lost a big chunk with crossing the $10k price point.

I think it's working out exactly as they planned. I think they have enough orders that they will keep the line busy making GNR for the next 6 month, even as new sales slow down. I do think we will see a final run of 500 $11.5K JPOTC LE's late Summer/early fall, and then I think they will move on to TS. I don't think we'll see another GNR run then until Summer 2022. I think this sets themselves up well for the future. If you like a game at release you need to order right away as the later (smaller) runs of the games will be subject to price increases. This creates some urgency on the buyer's end vs. having all the games always available to purchase NIB for the original release price. It would be a mistake for JJP to over-produce the game and drive down demand. I'm sure JJP really wants the prices to hold (or even increase) and for there to be continual demand for their games which means not squeezing every last sale they can out of the original run.

I also wonder, and this is just pure speculation on my part, whether they saw the continual demand for GnR as something that could prevent them from moving on to their next pin. They don’t want to be a company that just produces one pin, no matter how popular or profitable. Their future success requires churning out a new pin regularly. So the price increase slows sales and allows them to move on, all while accomplishing some of the other goals that were just stated.

Meh.

Switching models while the current model is still generating more demand than you can fill only costs the company money. It cuts into your production output (revenue) and you spend a lot of money on just overhead. You also risk killing demand you could have filled with a product whose startup overhead has already been covered. Switching products is expensive and risky.

You want product refresh to keep the demand pipeline strong and growing - but that's not an issue right now. And you don't delay new product development just because you have a successful product right now because you want to ensure you have new product ready when needed... not face a dead time between ProductA wanning and ProductB being ready. But again, this isn't the problem right now - they don't have to put it into production just to keep it viable. Unless there is some big external tie-in that is out of your control, the game can sit on the shelf and go into production when they want to.

Stunting production on a game you've already invested in and are being beyond your best expectations successful with... just to hit an artificial multi-title strategy is a bad move... especially when you have a huge backlog that is not realized. That is basically putting bookings you have at risk..

JJP needs to strike while the iron is hot... not try to slow roll it... because opportunity doesn't have patience.

Their problem has always been their production is like sipping through a coffee stirrer... hindering their ability to drive volume.

They don't need more titles to increase volume when you have a runaway hit.

Let me ask an obvious question. Sorry if it's been covered already.

If I purchase a GNRLE directly from JJP @ 10.5k today, wouldn't they be motivated to fulfill my order before all the orders that are queued up with distributors? I have no clue what JJP margins are, but 1k is likely a very healthy boost to their existing margins.

I also think it's unfortunate that the 1k deposit is non-refundable. From my perspective, it needs to have a time out. If I don't receive a game in 90 days, I am entitled to get my deposit back.

George would say Not gonna do it,wouldn’t be prudent!

Until I see some actual figures, which we won't anyway so I guess its moot, I'll fall on the side of rich machine buyers making up the diff'rence. Been working the last decade for me.

Unfortunately no. People who paid in full for CE on day one did not get there’s first.

Like and agree with the post and especially appreciate the poker reference

My guess is they would never admit it, but theres a chance they would fulfill quicker I totally agree that deposits should be refundable if they don't deliver in a reasonable timeframe...I still think its BS that JJP refuses to provide estimated delivery dates.

As much as I'd like a GNRLE, I just don't feel like "bending over" yet again. The business model sucks. Non-refundable deposits make 0 sense given their modest build capabilities. GNR is hot for the foreseeable future and it makes no sense if someone is "done" waiting, why they can't get their money back. With games changing hands between collectors, the chance of getting a game before yours is built likely.

I'm also not a fan of the non-refundable (and non-transferable, up here!) deposit but I think with Covid happening, it must be a living nightmare for nearly any business to function. Parts delays, shipping delays, manufacturing issues from keeping employees safely distanced... I expect that JJP (and all other manufacturers) are probably just doing the best they can, trying to make as many pins as possible. I expect that they're not giving guaranteed delivery dates simply because they know they can't. Too many variables beyond their control. They have a product that's in massive demand, so they get to increase the price, insist on non-refundable deposits, and will ship us the games when and only when they're ready to go!
It's a serious change of pace from when I could call my distro and get a game between a few days and up to a month, but it is what it is.
I'm just happy that this industry is thriving during covid and not suffering. That said, prices are getting stupid (resales included!) so it's kind of too-much-of-a-good-thing, from my perspective.

Sorry - but that's the industry they are in. Manufacturing. These woes are not unique to them - there are strategies and methodologies used to manage those risks and work to generate a meaningful forecast.

This isn't June of 2020 anymore...

Explain that to the salesman who sold us our new appliances, GUARANTEED to be here for the end of January, now expected at the end of next week (finally).
Refridgerator, stove, cook-top... ordered them in November, and were told "No problem. We'll have them here by then!"
The cook-top had to be cancelled completely and we bought it elsewhere.
So no, I think life (and especially Covid) is a little more complicated that you're making it out to be.
FYI: Bosch fridge and stove. Not sure what their annual sales are (apparently 77.7 billion euros in 2019) but it's MASSIVE compared to JJP and even they aren't able to handle what's going on right now.

You're comparing the word of sales - allocating units to a retailer too I assume? to the discussion about the job of the production managers. You can be damn sure the Bosch factory isn't operating with the mindset of "no, we have no idea how many units we will produce in the next 6 months" and "there is nothing we can do". Delays are one thing... but the idea of "nope.. nothing we can do" is not how manufacturers work. Between sourcing, inventory management, modifying your lead times, you still work to improve mitigation and diffuse risks so that you can get to a predictable cadence. The fact they won't commit to you personally about some one in gazillion orders isn't really the same discussion here.

I beg to differ. End user/buyer is the point of view that's being discussed. People are miffed because they don't have a firm delivery date on a new pin, same as my appliances. JJP is not alone with these challenges.
In my situation, Bosch wasn't able to provide the units to the distributor in time. There were unexpected delays due to massive unanticipated demand.
Big factories can't always adjust to produce unanticipated demand. JJP can't just hire twice as many people and have access to twice as much operating space simply because they have twice as many orders to fulfill. Forecasts are only effective when they're accurate and as I mentioned before, I don't think there were many people who accurately predicted the effects of this damn virus.
I suppose JJP might have an idea of how many pins they are producing daily and they could therefore look at the order list and using "first come, first served" method, predict how many days it will take to reach each distributor. But then, that's not allowing for any delays from parts not arriving in time for example.
All I know is it's absolutely silly for us to just assume they're being dicks cause they don't know better or don't care.

That said, my lying Bosch sales guy is a dick.
: )

My prediction is a big shift in spending on home entertainment items like pinball machines come late summer/fall timeframe. People are going to shift spending to travel and hobbies outside the home as Covid is brought under control.. As a result, my prediction is new pinball sales will return to prepandemic levels rapidly.

These price increases are going to alienate some NIB buyers and I am not convinced this crazy rise in prices is sustainable or will even stick. Stern & JJP are going to back themselves into a corner, lose some fed up customers, and have to go to a rebate system in the future IMO. I could be wrong but their greed may come back to bite them in the ass.

They'll only get that if he shart on that couch.

It took me 4 months to get my CE....was it worth the wait....well its a pretty incredible package so yea I guess it was. There is almost ZERO chance I would purchase and LE now not knowing when they "might" deliver....JJP is a manufacturing company so they should have a good idea when games should be delivered. Keeping customers in the dark makes no sense to me

I was impatient but agree, definitely worth the wait. The total package is stunning.

We've been saying this for a few years. I agree it is crazy...but while the prices might have got a boost due to COVID...they were already headed that way before then. I doubt they are going to go down any time soon. We are just in prime nostalgia people with money timeframe. Sure, there may be a few less, but you might have more operators buying at that point to make up for it.

Wait for everyone to get their Covid vaccine and see how many vacations get booked. Many people who are paying for pinball machines now will be jetting off to somewhere tropical with their families.
I expect there’s a lot of those funds currently being spent on pinball machines.
No reason to think prices will drastically reduce, but maybe subside, somewhat?
I would bet we won’t see the same level of demand for resale games.

Then grow! Expand the production lines! They need to decide what they want to be and where they want to go. They have a MASSIVE hit right now that has expanded their business to new levels previously unseen. No business would look to stop and stifle this momentum and pivot away from it. They raised their own bar with GNR and huge congrats to that team for the successes.....now keep it up! And grow! Imagine their next slam dunk hit but in a world with double the production speed/capacity. even more revenue, more profit, more growth. The question is can they keep up this momentum? I got murdered for my “toy story is a bad license” thread and I still believe every word of what I said there. I am worried. I don’t think people really want a toy story pin. What sells? Rock bands and 80s nostalgia and comic books. JJP better have some strong licensing lined up. Stern knows this and continues to own the lions share. Their licensing and production speed keep them at the top. Untouchable really. JJP with increased production capacity and a solid run of licensing hits could give stern a run for their money....even at the high prices.

Zero interest in Toy Story, but I don’t speak for the masses and rarely follow the crowd.

So you think people will continue to buy NIB games with all this pinflation and huge price increases? I disagree that pricing and demand for NIB pinballs is inelastic.

When Covid ends, I see demand leveling to lose to prepandemic levels. Time will tell but many NIB buyers are just about priced out of the market ... to say nothing of operators who may not resume purchases post Covid. How can they make money with NIB pricing at these levels?

Ditto

Ditto

Someone do black Sabbath and Jimi hendrix. Big sellers each

You keep acting like these prices suddenly went up with covid. They didn't. What DID happen is manufacturing and part prices went up. At this point it is still too early to be saying they are going to be going down any time soon - if they go down at all. I think the point is, people have been saying pinball prices are unsustainable for years, and year after year we are proven wrong. It may be YOUR limit, but there are 1000's of others who's it isn't. I agree at some point we'll reach a saturation, but travelling had little impact on game prices before covid or during covid. Pinball was hot the entire time and prices have been reflecting that. So I guess to answer your question, yes, I do think people will continue to buy NiB at these prices...in droves.

People are overthinking the price increase on GnR. Remember PoTC and how they were losing money on it? GnR is probably the same way - only this time they can't keep up with demand. They realize they aren't making enough on it to meet profit margins with the increased part/manu costs, and raised the price to meet it.

The big question is: Is this price increase just for this title? Or are we looking at 7750/10500/13500 for Toy Story? I was really pumped for a sub 7K standard model JJP and was hoping Toy Story SE was gonna be a good looking game. I'm out at 7750.

Do they make a features matrix list for GNR?

They list the features of each model on their site, but on day one, we saw that they were inaccurate because they showed the SE having one of the 2 upper playfields and it has neither of them.

They won't sell many if $10.5K is their new price point for LE's....GNR was a very unique product since they had all the assets, which is unheard of. My guess is we may never see another pin like it.

Coin operated amusement games, meaning all amusement games and not just pinball, as an industry probably had its worst year ever in 2020. To date, 2021 isn't much different. Will business be better in another 6-8 months? Hopefully, yes it will. That said, existing locations and operators will have to get back on their feet again. In pre-Covid times, it was already a risky proposition placing a JJP game on location. This coming Fall it will still be a risky proposition with a higher price tag.

Parts and supply chain issues will normalize as Covid gets under control globally. It is one thing to raise prices $100-$200 to offset part and other manufacturing increases. It is another to raise them $500-$1000 over night. That isnt about manufacturing cost increases, it is about milking current demand and a level of price gouging.

Of course price increases aren't new but year over year increases at the levels we have seen the last 2-3 are. Sure there are a subset of buyers that don't care and will pay whatever they ask but the majority including operators will hit a point where they won't buy.

We'll agree to disagree. I am of the opinion these huge price increases are due to increased demand, largely driven by Covid and people having to stay at home for a year now.

The pent up economic demand is for travel and pursuits anywhere but home when this ends. That will affect demand for home improvement projects and home entertainment items like pinball machines. Will be interesting but I do think we will turn Covid into a manageable and mild illness for most via mass vaccination within the next 6-8 months.

JJP and Stern are testing how high they can go. If people keep buying, you can take it to the bank this will be their new pricing structure going forward.

The best thing that could happen is people stop buying and demand plummets. I think that may happen over time but probably not until Covid is waning and people are frequenting sporting events, restaurants movie theatres, and traveling again.

I tend to agree. Many of us haven't had the opportunity to spend $ on other things so home entertainment has sky rocketed over the last year. Once that subsides the pinball market will level out or drop. I've owned all the JJP LE or CE games, and there is ZERO chance I'll spend $11K on an LE. I bought the GNR CE because its such a unique product..