This is very simple. If you really want the machine, you will pay. If not you will wait for a machine you really want and eventually pay the price. Stern and JJP need to do what is best for them to survive. If you disagree, then don’t buy. I have bought 2 machines from JJ p and can only say there support was great.
I’m willing to pay extra as long as that continues.

thanks JJP

Years ago, you responded to one of my very first tech posts on pinside. I was new to pinball, feeling dejected, and wondering what I got myself into. Your very prompt and spot on advice was refreshing and, in a not insignificant way, likely helped keep me in the hobby.

Several years later, I ran into you at Pintastic and got to thank you in person. And, what did you do then? You mugged me! it was an honor.

Unfortunate? Hmm. Did you ever consider that Jack & company weren't actually running the company well? I've worked for several tech startups and one of them needed to be "saved" just like JJP. It needed to be saved because the management sucked and made many bad decisions.

It's just shocking to me that you have the nerve to disparage someone that helped Jack continue producing games.

What if jjp can’t increase production because they can’t get certain parts or COVID is hindering labor and the ability to ramp up, or something else we don’t know about. They can’t keep taking orders knowing they might not be able to meet demand so they raise prices to slow it. Seems to have been effective judging by some of the responses in this thread.

I disagree that volume drives revenue. Quality drives revenue. Look at Ferrari or McLaren, they don’t need volume to be successful companies. Jjp is never going to produce like stern, and they probably shouldn’t.

Here's how I see the world.

You can do one of two things:

1. Accept the world as it is, and let life happen to you.
2. Make your life what you want it to be, identifying the change you want and taking steps to make it so.

Maybe Butch is a person...I...like, even if from afar, and I don't appreciate how he was discarded like literal garbage. Butch was there before Leonard and Lawlor. If you're not aware of the in's and out's as to what happened and why, maybe you don't know the people you like all that well.

Has Brett ever jetted over to SS from Miami?

And that's fine Lloyd. I don't know you that well. I do know myself well, and I don't appreciate people that abuse power. Trust me, our new Postmaster is vile, and we have a no strike clause in our Union, from before I was born. He's definitely a vulgar puppet though, and has done nothing but hinder our production on a daily basis nationally, during a massive health crisis no less. I know DeJoy is a joyless scumbag. I'm okay saying that.

Clearly the talent staff at JJP couldn't have striked when Butch was fired. I highly doubt there's a union there. Big business, in a general sense, doesn't want unions, never have, never will. Still, without taking stands for a brother or sister, we ALL get steamrolled. And we do so by people with massive power. Butch was a victim of people with power.

Those people will not waste time talking with the little people, outside of a sales job/business arrangement. I assume I've had more private correspondence over the years with you than you and the Abess Family or me and them. There's reality. And then there's fantasy.

If I'm gravely inaccurate, I'm glad! I'd prefer to be wrong here. But class and power systems do exist, and that's okay. Acting like they don't, is b.s.

Real interest to me, willSpooky be increasing their prices by a 1k or more on the next title?

I don’t like increases. I do have the choice on who and how I spend my money with. If it’s new and I must have now then that’s what it costs. I will front up.

Sorry your stories get longer and more confusing with each post to be honest. As I understand and you posted, you Were buying a GnR happily until the price increase yet Now your story is all about why you would never buy from a company that (you assume) wrongfully fired Butch? Pick your march and stick with it. Just know your march about Butch is what You assume it to be. Nobody on this forum knows Why he was released and its Nobodies business other then his and theirs. Unless you know the Actual story you should consider a different crusade is my suggestion. Butch was an Amazing guy with incredible talent thats not in question. What is are the Actual facts for his dismissal which you/we do Not know nor should we Assume and guess. The investors nor Butch are holding you back, only You are.

Wasn't interested in this title, but I feel like buying one now after reading all this stupid insane shit.

Does seem like it tripped a few triggers thats for sure.

I'd be willing to bet that increase is mostly from educational institutions and not the average person who is now forced to work from home, but point taken. On the other hand I just picked up a very much needed Mac book air a couple months ago and had no trouble at all ordering one.

You got that wrong.

LTG : )

And I'm glad to be in that instance!

Lloyd be strong! We all love you and appreciate your help over the years. The market will tell JJP if the increase was the right move. Debating won’t but time. GNR is a great game! Funny thing is the whole pinball market is a small market compared to other things. It is a hobby and for amusement. No operators are killing it. They do it because of passion. Everyone go play their favorite game!

It's hard to believe it's been 10 years or so Rick since we were early adopters on a WOZ.

10 yrs later i still have my WOZECLE and now a JJP GNRCE. My how things have changed in the last decade.

Curious how do those 2 CE’s compare a decade apart?

Say What??? All along I thought #LTG was Rich!! 50 years one quarter at a time and he's not a millionaire??? I was kissing his butt for nothing! lol LTG has the Biggest heart I have seen in 20 years of pinball so for that he IS the richest man there is.

As much as we like to complain I 100% think this was the right business move for JJP. Yes, it would have been nice if they would have given us notice ahead of time to warn us a price increase was coming but this decision fits their business model the best. They were I unable to keep up with demand with their past price structure. If they could build 75 games a day like Stern it would be different. Even if sales slow down in the future, they could just switch out their line to JPOTC and build more of those LE's for $10,500. I really think their factory is going to be busy either way and they can continue to focus on quality vs. volume, even if that comes at a higher price point. As far as GNR goes, I don't think they'll have any problems renewing the license, so they could continue building those for years' much like they did with WOZ and do more runs on demand whenever they had a lull in production.

Sorry you feel this way. Try not to believe all the rhetoric you hear out there...it never did anybody any good.

I was out on a GnR, for the most part, the night I played it. I went back days later, was pissed to even wait a few days, as I didn't want to confirm my impressions of shooting it.

I was there day one at Helicon Brewing, started a thread here, went overboard posting photos and such. Same as Wonka. I was blown away watching people play it, probably the most excitement I had all last year, the leadup and then watching it arrive, it being setup, coming alive in front of our eyes.

Then I shot it. And it didn't sit well with me. I hope to again. Had about three sessions on the game.

But yeah, I can't reasonably afford $9500 plus shipping and taxes. And I really can't an extra grand. I have so much money to place into my home, and daftass things like this are so much easier to delve into, than new windows, carpeting, what have you.

And sure, I'm an outsider to all of this, and in ways I reasonably understand defensiveness. I'm an outside player, quite literally. Yourself Lloyd, and many others have connections, stories, histories I do not. I look at life in a questioning manner, and doing that can lead to views or opinions of dissent, abstraction, contradiction, agreement, etc. For me, I feel comfortable being that person, and I understand that's different. We all are different.

I also understand there are shades of gray and nuance all over the world. I also understand I am often wrong, probably more than right, but ultimately my sensibilities, as do your own, have to lead to comfort and balance for myself. In short, we gotta be who we are. Not everyone will accept that, and far fewer will find value in that. I'm okay with that. Gotta be.

That reminds me Dave. You need Chapstick.

LTG : )

Sad part in the steep increase in pricing is that a lot of middle class people that would normally get into this hobby won't be able to. I know it's always been a semi-rich guy's hobby, but even used prices are getting crazy. It's truly becoming a hobby for the wealthy and the grandfathered, like real estate in dense cities like New York.

I make good money, but I wouldn't have joined the party at these prices. Pinball is fun, but it's not THAT fun.

Fine. But since your not rich, how much for your little dog!!! Prada would Love hanging out with our Piglet. She loves to lounge around and beg for scraps.

IMG_6030 (resized).jpg

Agreed. If I hadn’t been in this for awhile I would not have the games. Seems like I trade a lot and upgrade the games I had with better examples. That said 8 years ago I was asking how could the price of games appreciate anymore. Well they have. Looking back only a few games I ever lost money on. Most have been crazy how well I have done. It is a hobby. Cheaper than classic cars. Insurance is nothing on them unlike a car. You can have fun collecting, restoring, repairing, improving and most importantly playing them. Buying today it is different as seems a lot of little things to get dialed in and the code changes so much from launch until final. The final code could be completely different playing game. The rules in all these new games is so deep.

I've been in this "hobby" for 17 years. In that period of time, inflation in so many essential areas has out paced pinball (like food, real estate, health care). Since a majority of these games hold their value, the financial risk is extremely low. All about priorities...I know MANY "middle class" folk who prioritize pinball and make it work financially.

Exactly .
I could never afford 15.5 k for a new PIN .
But over 20 years , l started with a $200 arcade game , I gradually brought and sold arcade games and pins and worked my way up , now when I sell my Hobbit and saving a few grand I can now get GNR .
Every pinhead on pinside , knew and had an opportunity to put in their order . I've been willing to sacrifice pins I love to get other pins .
It's funny to see some guys who said GNR was overrated , had no flow , to multi ball heavy , ect , now complaining the price has gone up

What is everyone's true opinion on true valuation of GNR and others?

For me GNR SE is a $5500 machine
the CE is a $8400 machine

The Big Lebowski is a $9000 machine

Rick and Morty is a $6000 machine
Rick and Morty BS is a $6800 machine

MMR Royal is a $9000 machine

Supreme turd is worth $3000

The list goes on....

I tend to set my own price points for games. Sometimes they align with reality and sometimes they do not. Are some of these games worth nearly what people are asking nowadays-hell no.

It’s certainly harder to get into dmd era games compared to a few years ago, but stern pros are still around the same price they were several years ago, at least in the secondary market. Star Trek, acdc, Munsters, Metallica, Deadpool, Spider-Man, avengers, xmen, etc can all be had for around 4500-$5k. That’s not much increase in many years. Other games like wpt, rbion, sopranos, nascar can easily be had for under $4k. There are also other great 90s games under $4k, some under $3k, like road show, fish tales, jm, shadow, bsd, etc. granted some of these games have doubled in recent years, but you dont need to spend $10k to enter the hobby. Clearly it’s become much more expensive to build up a collection, but you can easily have 2-3 nice games for around $10k if you try. Pinball never has been an inexpensive hobby.

The high end games are where the price increases are happening the most and that mainly seems because of lack of supply and people thinking they can buy these games and flip them. I’m stunned at how many potc games are coming on the market at $17-20+k, crazy to me, and I dont understand the motivation a buyer has at those prices. Some people buy the CE from jjp with the sole intention to flip it and so far that strategy has worked well. But for the buyers paying what I think are ridiculous prices, I don’t entirely get it. Do they think prices will go even higher...greater fool theory? Or do they truly think a game like potc is so good, they will pay any price?

The whole POTC is super fishy to me. Started with turmoil over three disk vs two disc change. Then tons of production issues(I believe JJP was losing their ass) and then sudden stop in production because of parts, etc? Now people selling for $20k+ has me laughing. It has some serious draw to it, and some of my personal friends have gotten bit by the lure of this game. The modes are over the top with 20+ characters and it is what I call a hoge poge game. I love the POTC theme and thought I would love the game, but fortunately it was not fun for me. The more these games climb in pricing because of rarity the more it makes me distance myself even further. Would I rather have a 20K box of lights or 5 used HUO Sterns?

Not to point out the obvious... but just take $20 over to Helicon Brew every other week, have some fun, and call it day. Problem/issue solved. It's a win-win... you get to enjoy some pinball AND you're saving cash for something way more important: LIFE.

glad i bought mine the day they came out

this for sure

agree

Meh. Games are about fun and you and I don't get to set prices. My son is visiting and I surprised him with R&M and we are loving it. Paid 1k over MSRP to land mine NIB locally. Compared with your pricing, I got ripped off. Of course, this isn't the case. In fact, with only 750 worldwide and HBO picking up the series, I have no doubt that this game will easily hold it's value (which again, is much higher than your "opinion").

No matter what the product, getting a hot item NOW with high demand and low supply means paying "up". I'm picking up 2021 Corvette tomorrow morning...had to "pay up" because it's a hot car. If I wait another year or so, I'm sure I could save some $$. I think it's important to live life while you can. I have an awesome neighbor/pilot who retired very recently (@ 65) and is now fighting for his life (freak accident where he fell and hit his head). Poor guy had been looking forward to retirement and now this happens. Just awful.

The company that has struggled to maintain enough sales demand to keep their production line running full strength finally has that demand... and you think they should nerf it?

After they just relocated to improve production?

Quality can drive demand... but revenue comes from sales not interest. And this is a manufacturing business... not a craftsman custom shop. Ferrari can’t survive at their volume if they only charged 50% over the actual mass produced cars.

Manufacturing is all about volume. Volume opens every door.

Sounds like you have lots of disposable income and that is great, but most do not. I am doing very well and could overspend but I have always been a saver, bargain shopper, do it myself kind of guy and it has allowed me to now build my final home on the lake with everything I have ever wanted paid for 100%. I still have a decent collection but I can't justify in my head paying $10k for a game that I personally value at $5k. It just does not make sense to me and that is fine and you overspending for a game is fine. Everybody is different, but I do not care what anyone's says today's pinball pricing is STUPID.

Nerf it? No. Rationalize it, yes. We don't know what is causing production isssues but clearly they cant seem to run more than one line at a time, having to stop the LE run to make CEs. I don't believe any other game is on the line, but don't really know.

The move of the factory was intended to create synergies, and I'm assuming expand production, but covid hit and its effects are likely hindering them.

You raise price because you have strong demand and/or you have supply issues. I am just speculating, but I suspect they have both.

Over the years I've defended JJP price increases by saying "Well, look at what Stern is offering for the same price". No more as these $10k+ LE prices have entered crazy town territory. Both Stern and JJP have been playing this back and forth game of raising prices after seeing what each of them do and as a result both companies have now priced a lot of people out of the market.

I've often criticized Stern as in my opinion they don't justify the price with enough features and toys. Well for the first time I'll say the same thing about a JJP pin with the new $10.5k GNR LE price. There's not enough features and toys in GNR LE to justify the new price tag. For $10.5k you don't even get all of the mechanical features in the game, that being the missing coma lock reserved for the CE. $10.5k and you still don't get all of the mechanical features? That was bad enough to stomach at $9.5k but at $10.5k there's just no words. I shouldn't be surprised as this is the same company charging $11.5k for yet another "limited" version of WOZ that doesn't even come with the monkey mech.

The same thing can now be said about GNR SE. $7,800 and the only toy is a spinning disk...wow. I'll take an AIQ Premium that has far more in for the same price over GNR SE any day. How about an Alien from Pinball Brothers? That now looks like a steal compared to the prices (and what you actually get) that both Stern and JJP charge.

THANK GOD. So, what the hell are 97% of your posts going to be about now?

GNR SE is way better than avengers pro

That post you just read?

Not enough toys in JJP OR Stern games: Repeat that for the next 97 out of 100 of his posts.

Years ago when JJP and other cies started to come into the hobby I thought competition would be good for business. Forcing the only existing cie to produce better pinball at a fair price to make sure they keep their segment of the pie. Boy, it's the complete opposite. Since other cies joined prices keep rising and quality is dropping. It defied all logic....why ? I think because pinball is not a logical market. People buy with their heart, not their brains and logic. It's okay but don't expect to see any logic from a market full of passionate people who buy with their heart.

Pinball is an awesome hobby but it is for people with more and more money to buy the new toys, and even if they flip it after a guy with money will want to minimise his loss to buy the new big game. So used market will go up like we have been seeing for years.

As long they keep selling and attracting deeper pockets prices will go up. I think honestly at $15 000 all the CE would have sold anyway. The more pinball cies are aware of that the more you will see move like this : jacking a price up during a release.

Just my opinion

Manure

Well the good news is you'll save yourself some money, because odds are you'll never own any of those games

I am sure he is 100% OK with that, he has a insane collection as is.

If the value of any of them used still only drops by a grand, then it's not really money spent right? Just set aside until you sell? That's been my only rationality for being in this hobby as a collector anyway. If I lose a grand a pin on average, it's acceptable for the fun we've had.

I was going to get an LE, the $9500 was intimidating but now the extra $1000 is going make me wait for the used market. Disappointing.

Both have passive spinning disks (Yay!?) but AIQ wins the ramp battle.

Lol I don't know, I just don't know.

Crazy you are so smart, you are right. Wow!

I like how you left out Stern LE pricing