New York, NY
Well said.
(Topic ID: 287178)
Quoted from taylor34:This move puzzles me a little. If money was such a problem, why have they not re-ran POTC?
I bet it has a lot to do with it being an overly complex game to get working right, the limited assets and the high costs that go into manufacturing it. Plus by the time they got it together and ready to sell the hype had passed and it was on to the next.
Also the Johnny Depp era of that franchise is dead dead dead. So licensing may be an issue.
POTC is an amazing machine but you have to believe that once JJP got out of that scenario they were like welp, lesson learned.
Quoted from taylor34:A week warning would have at least given people a chance to order.
This keeps coming up in the thread over and over. If they did the price bump to curb demand, advance warning would have created the opposite effect.
The folks that were serious about buying it got in at the lower price. Good on them.
Quoted from zaphX:Fair point, but consider that some of these NIBs are going UP in price over time.
That’s... pretty rare tho. If there isn’t a “situation” like with something like POTC or Lebowski, the original Alien release, etc... you normally see almost immediate depreciation, as you should... once supply catches up to demand anyways.
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:.</bloc
I bet it has a lot to do with it being an overly complex game to get working right, the limited assets and the high costs that go into manufacturing it. Plus by the time they got it together and ready to sell the hype had passed and it was on to the next.
Also the Johnny Depp era of that franchise is dead dead dead. So licensing may be an issue.
POTC is an amazing machine but you have to believe that once JJP got out of that scenario they were like welp, lesson learned.
I honestly haven’t kept up on the Potc talk, but I did ask a good friend of Jacks (someone he has known for decades) and his take on it was, that they got in serious hot water over using imagery and video clips that they either weren’t suppose to or didn’t get prior approval on, and things went south fast with the license.
Whether it’s true or not, it certainly would explain production coming to an abrupt halt.
Quoted from smokinhos:I'm guessing that those who changed their mind about a future order will buy a used one in the future or come back around. Let's be honest, 500 sold out at 12,500. My guess is 500 would have sold out at 13,500. And for the LE owners and buyers, there was and IS so much hype that sales would still be strong at 10,500 and SE at just under 8k. People just keep shelling cash out at these games. A release of POTC could get $15k.. thats just what the hobby is now.
Please stop pretending that this group will refuse to pay $15k for the next super duper awesome life changing pin. There's already proof its happening based on sales overseas and in Canada. I've already been forced out of high end pin buying, because I just can't afford it. I chuckle hearing people complain about prices, when so many of us had to get off the ever inflating pinball price train years ago.
So it was ok for to get off then but not ok for others to get off now 
? People are griping about a perceived dick move but many are just actually saying they can no longer afford it whether by finance or conscience . Yes - many who can afford it will still buy .
Quoted from gunstarhero:That’s... pretty rare tho. If there isn’t a “situation” like with something like POTC or Lebowski, the original Alien release, etc... you normally see almost immediate depreciation, as you should... once supply catches up to demand anyways.
And yet every game in my collection is worth more than I paid except for Wonka. That one is still available NIB and I’ve got so many plays on it, it’s hard to consider HUO 
Quoted from shacklersrevenge:I honestly haven’t kept up on the Potc talk
I spoke with Jack personally for about 30 minutes at TPF about the potc production. There were a few issues that were minor but the big one was parts suppliers. If you have all the parts to build a pin but lack one single part, you don’t have a pin to produce. Jack said they had a number of parts that the suppliers required several thousand units to be ordered before they would make another run of that part.
You can see how it becomes unprofitable to produce a machine when a manufacturer has to order thousands of parts beyond their production forecast to sit in inventories. Meanwhile, distributors were sitting on unsold inventory. So yeah, it made perfect sense to halt production.
The three spinning disks were mentioned earlier and how people backed out because it was omitted. Some people did initially, but ended up buying PoTC anyway. As an operator, I decided I was not going to buy PoTC because of the three disk, I was afraid it would be unreliable on route. I didn’t decide to buy a PoTC until they came out with a single disk. Honestly, the ball is more wild with the single disk set up anyway. Most people didn’t get to play the prototype 3-disk pins, I did and I can tell you the game is better with the single disk.
Quoted from zaphX:And yet every game in my collection is worth more than I paid except for Wonka. That one is still available NIB and I’ve got so many plays on it, it’s hard to consider HUO
Hobbit and WOZ have gone up in value? Unless you got them for a song used they have not gone up in value. Hobbits actually tanked in value.
Quoted from woody76:Hobbit and WOZ have gone up in value? Unless you got them for a song used they have not gone up in value. Hobbits actually tanked in value.
DI, Hobbit, WOZ, Wonka all dropped in value right after u opened the box....POTC was an anomaly .... zero chance I'll buy another NIB game from JJP at over $11K delivered for an LE
Pinball is in a lockdown hotspot right now as a lot of bored people at home.
Demand will soften once everything can do stuff again!
Definitely odd to see a price increase midstream, but considering how long it takes them to build these machines, I can understand why the planning might fall on release boundaries.
The company has long struggled to be profitable, so I don't know why this is such a big deal. Without the angel investor, JJP would likely be out of business by now and GNR2 wouldn't exist. My loaded R&M weighed in @ $9,500 and it has a lot less "stuff" than GNR2. I don't think JJP is being unreasonable, despite the odd timing of the increase.
Last time I checked, JJP was located in a free market, capatilisic country selling a 'luxury' good.
As a manufacturer, they are free to do as they see fit. It is on the consumer to ultimately effect prices. Don't like it, don't buy it, eventually they will find a new equilibrium.
I am in manufacturing (not pinball mind you), and always seemed odd to me that we raised our prices during the downturns, I guess there are just some things that ECON 101 doesn't teach.
Speaking about parts shortages:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/05/investing/premarket-stocks-trading/index.html
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Pinball is in a lockdown hotspot right now as a lot of bored people at home.
Demand will soften once everything can do stuff again!
Are you predicting some kind of bursting of a metaphorical bubble?!
Quoted from woody76:Hobbit and WOZ have gone up in value? Unless you got them for a song used they have not gone up in value. Hobbits actually tanked in value.
Define “tanked”. Hobbit was $7500 NIB. I bought one for $6500. Is that “tanked” or “normal”? When Sterns like Elvis, Sopranos & South Park were $3500 NIB, you could get them used all day long for like $1500. Seems like games that depreciate today still hold a significant amount of their value.
Quoted from woody76:Hobbit and WOZ have gone up in value? Unless you got them for a song used they have not gone up in value. Hobbits actually tanked in value.
Prices are up across the board right now. And I added value to my WOZ by doing the 2.0 light board swap.
Quoted from zaphX:Prices are up across the board right now. And I added value to my WOZ by doing the 2.0 light board swap.
Umm...that doesn't mean that WOZ has gone up in value. If I fill my Jeep Cherokee with gold bars, it doesn't mean that the value of Cherokees in general has gone up.
Quoted from mbeardsley:Umm...that doesn't mean that WOZ has gone up in value. If I fill my Jeep Cherokee with gold bars, it doesn't mean that the value of Cherokees in general has gone up.
So two ECLEs side by side, equivalent condition, one has 2.0 boards and one doesn't. Which is worth more?
This isn't adding plastic mods, this is doing substantial labor and parts swap to make it better than it was new.
Quoted from zaphX:So two ECLEs side by side, equivalent condition, one has 2.0 boards and one doesn't. Which is worth more?
This isn't adding plastic mods, this is doing substantial labor and parts swap to make it better than it was new.
Point!
Quoted from zaphX:So two ECLEs side by side, equivalent condition, one has 2.0 boards and one doesn't. Which is worth more?
This isn't adding plastic mods, this is doing substantial labor and parts swap to make it better than it was new.
As an owner of both WOZ RR and ECLE I would say the game with 2.0 boards is worth more....by maybe the cost of the upgrade....both my games had the 7.5 buffered boards and I never had an issue so didn't bother with the upgrade.
Quoted from zaphX:So two ECLEs side by side, equivalent condition, one has 2.0 boards and one doesn't. Which is worth more?
This isn't adding plastic mods, this is doing substantial labor and parts swap to make it better than it was new.
That wasn't my point at all. You claimed that WOZ (and your other machines) have increased in value - due to market forces.
You can't add a bunch of mods to your game (regardless of their value/labor/merit) and then say that your machines are now worth more due to the changes in the marketplace.
They are worth more because of the additional investment you have made - not because WOZ in general has gone up in value.
Based on what I've heard about the game, you could route it for a weekend at 50 cents a play and make that $1000 back. Its THAT good.
Quoted from zaphX:And yet every game in my collection is worth more than I paid except for Wonka. That one is still available NIB and I’ve got so many plays on it, it’s hard to consider HUO
That’s arguable with Hobbit and WOZ and time will probably catch up to GNR... also just assuming you bought them NIB and not second hand pre-depreciated so someone else took the hit.
Pirates is a pretty safe bet tho, lol!
Quoted from mbeardsley:Umm...that doesn't mean that WOZ has gone up in value. If I fill my Jeep Cherokee with gold bars, it doesn't mean that the value of Cherokees in general has gone up.
It does if the gold bars come with it
Quoted from NevadaNutJob:So it was ok for to get off then but not ok for others to get off now ? People are griping about a perceived dick move but many are just actually saying they can no longer afford it whether by finance or conscience . Yes - many who can afford it will still buy .
No.. my point is that people have been getting off the train all along due to pricing and opting for older more affordable pins or used pros, etc. Thats why I laugh when people get bent out of shape over $1k raise on a super hot game. Exactly what owners love to see.. appreciation. If no other reason than to justify dropping a years worth of college tuition, passing on the vette pictured above, buying new stainless steel appliances for the wifey, maybe a nice fishing boat, etc..
I dont recall the onslaught of complaining when we realized.. wait Stern pros are as much as premiums used to be..?
Everyone is riding the same wave. You don't see collectors cutting their nuts off and selling at ridiculous discounts on the secondhand market. So why should manufacturers on the NIB side of the equation?
Like it or not, this is a fluid market. Jersey Jack, Stern, Spooky, American... they'd be absolute idiots not to charge top dollar if customers were willing to pay.
No one is getting hurt, here. JJP is honoring pricing on already ordered games. New buyers have a choice to make, but it's not like walking away is taking food off the table.
i thought this pandemic was the beginning of the end for quite a few manufacturers... and definitely thought secondhand pricing would collapse. Not afraid to admit I was dead wrong. The complete opposite has happened.
Quoted from 27dnast:Everyone is riding the same wave. You don't see collectors cutting their nuts off and selling at ridiculous discounts on the secondhand market. So why should manufacturers on the NIB side of the equation?
Like it or not, this is a fluid market. Jersey Jack, Stern, Spooky, American... they'd be absolute idiots not to charge top dollar if customers were willing to pay.
No one is getting hurt, here. JJP is honoring pricing on already ordered games. New buyers have a choice to make, but it's not like walking away is taking food off the table.
i thought this pandemic was the beginning of the end for quite a few manufacturers... and definitely thought secondhand pricing would collapse. Not afraid to admit I was dead wrong. The complete opposite has happened.
Well sure the opposite has happened. Who knew that the government was going to remove all the risk?
Quoted from mbeardsley:That wasn't my point at all. You claimed that WOZ (and your other machines) have increased in value - due to market forces.
You can't add a bunch of mods to your game (regardless of their value/labor/merit) and then say that your machines are now worth more due to the changes in the marketplace.
They are worth more because of the additional investment you have made - not because WOZ in general has gone up in value.
You make good points. I should rephrase that in the aggregate my collection is up, bolstered by a couple in-demand titles. It's kinda moot anyway, I have no plans to sell. I look forward to playing with you one day.
Berne
Quoted from mbeardsley:JJP has a hit on their hands, I don't blame them at all for raising the price.
well then ur confused sir.
Let them raise the price on their next release but to do so on an existing game where the price had already been set is horseshit. Another JJP "hit" that somehow won't push them past where they were 3 yrs ago. 
Quoted from Biv:sooo, with this price increase....does this mean some GnR CE spots got freed up and I can grab one of em?
CE's are 100% sold....they didnt increase pricing on the CE's although if they had a crystal ball I'm sure they would have !
Quoted from LordHumungus:well then ur confused sir.
Let them raise the price on their next release but to do so on an existing game where the price had already been set is horseshit. Another JJP "hit" that somehow won't push them past where they were 3 yrs ago.
Why can’t they raise the price? Prices of goods go up and down across every industry.
No one is being required to pay more after the fact.
Quoted from 27dnast:Why can’t they raise the price? Prices of goods go up and down across every industry.
No one is being required to pay more after the fact.
They can, but people feel like it's greed since the machine was just released. If this was a year later it wouldn't be a big deal but months later doesn't sit right with some people myself included.
Quoted from Ericc123:They can, but people feel like it's greed since the machine was just released. If this was a year later it wouldn't be a big deal but months later doesn't sit right with some people myself included.
I can understand feeling disappointed that pinball pricing has skyrocketed. I’ve been disappointed about that for years. But I don’t think this is greed, it’s just smart business.
If we were talking about a lifesaving medication or a necessity for daily survival... then I’d shout greed. But we’re talking about a niche non-essential toy that no one technically needs to survive (outside of coin op folks). They are a very small manufacturer that is experiencing unprecedented demand... there’s no rule that says they can’t adjust pricing.
Besides, who knows how JJP is being pinched by various vendors. It could be that someone is jacking the cost of core electronics in the game.
Luckily, you, as a potential customer, can vote with your wallet. Eventually, if enough people join you, JJP and Stern will reverse the motion of their pricing models. But, I think there’s a really good chance that buyers will continue to fork over cash. So, it’s probably prudent to adjust expectations and appreciate the fact that pinball has become this healthy of a industry.
Quoted from 27dnast:I can understand feeling disappointed that pinball pricing has skyrocketed. I’ve been disappointed about that for years. But I don’t think this is greed, it’s just smart business.
If we were talking about a lifesaving medication or a necessity for daily survival... then I’d shout greed. But we’re talking about a niche non-essential toy that no one technically needs to survive (outside of coin op folks). They are a very small manufacturer that is experiencing unprecedented demand... there’s no rule that says they can’t adjust pricing.
Besides, who knows how JJP is being pinched by various vendors. It could be that someone is jacking the cost of core electronics in the game.
Luckily, you, as a potential customer, can vote with your wallet. Eventually, if enough people join you, JJP and Stern will reverse the motion of their pricing models. But, I think there’s a really good chance that buyers will continue to fork over cash. So, it’s probably prudent to adjust expectations and appreciate the fact that pinball has become this healthy of a industry.
This isn't a healthy sign, otherwise AP, CGC and Stern would be raising they're prices 1k. Instead Stern raised theirs $100 like they do every other year, AP dropped theirs from $7300 to $6300 with Hot Wheels(excellent game), CGC remakes after MM started at $6k.
Quoted from 27dnast:Why can’t they raise the price? Prices of goods go up and down across every industry.
No one is being required to pay more after the fact.
I didn't say they can't. I said it was horseshit. Kinda like how anyone could actually defend this move. Then can, but then being a dumbfuck comes to mind.
Quoted from LordHumungus:I didn't say they can't. I said it was horseshit. Kinda like how anyone could actually defend this move. Then can, but then being a dumbfuck comes to mind.
How do you really feel about tit I'm all for smart business moves, but the timing of the increase was pretty odd. My guess is they are at full capacity for months, and really wanted to slow down new orders so they can plan for their next release. My guess is if they keep future LE's at $10.5 and increase CE's than JJP won't be around much longer. That market segment is pretty small.
Quoted from PtownPin:How do you really feel about tit
I love tit. Big, small and perky. All kinds and then some. 
Quoted from PokerJake:Instead Stern raised theirs $100 like they do every other year
Stern just jacked (no pun intended) EHOH by $500.00, and actually did it to those who had pre orders already down for more the 6 months or so.
Quoted from LordHumungus:I love tit. Big, small and perky. All kinds and then some.
Good to know....I'm in the same camp
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Wrong again (by the way, there's 0 for sale in the marketplace).
I've never seen someone so bitter over a game then then you with Hobbit. If there's a thread or a comment about Hobbit you are there with the "WORST GAME EVER, I HATE IT" rant...every...single...time lol. Did that game really land on you that bad when you tried to move it by yourself? That was years ago, let your hate go and move on with your life.
I
Quoted from DeathHimself:Stern just jacked (no pun intended) EHOH by $500.00, and actually did it to those who had pre orders already down for more the 6 months or so.
so jjp DOUBLED the amount of their increase on pins that aren't half as fun as Sterns.
So with all of the social media barrage JJP has done to promote this game, why no official social media messages regarding this price hike...?
Do they just expect new customers, not in the know, to just be uninformed, and then....poof, profit?
Seems a dodgy tactic to boost the marketing signal so intensely these past 5 months, then cut it entirely when it's completely necessary.
Quoted from hoby1:We are in a pandemic, pinball is a luxury and right now people cant make a living and most don't have disposable cash. They should be glad to be staying a float.
Sounds like a one of the dumbest game plans I ever heard.....changing the price point after putting it out there.
What a joke.
Nah - people in pinball have disposable cash. A lot of it.
Quoted from zaphX:Demand didn't increase just because production stopped.
The real reason demand shot up is: people thought the game was going to suck due to 2 mechs being removed and weak asset use. There was quite the pinside brigade against it.
Then once people got a chance to actually play it, they realized it was still an amazing game with the faults...but by then it was too late, sales were slow enough JJP already made their call.
It's a great game that people love, that is why it remains highly sought after and at a high price.
I love you Derrick but demand definitely increased bc production stopped. Yes the game is also awesome and loaded but people love a good rare pinball
Quoted from wesman:So with all of the social media barrage JJP has done to promote this game, why no official social media messages regarding this price hike...?
Do they just expect new customers, not in the know, to just be uninformed, and then....poof, profit?
Seems a dodgy tactic to boost the marketing signal so intensely these past 5 months, then cut it entirely when it's completely necessary.
Why would they start now
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