(Topic ID: 318602)

GND short Help! I can't play my Williams Indiana Jones

By Golgotha

1 year ago


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There are 53 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

When game is turned on I get the following:
GND short WHT-BRN ROW R1
GND short WHT-RED ROW R2
GND short WHT-ORN ROW R3
GND short ROW 1 is stuck close

Any suggestions?
Thanks a bunch

#2 1 year ago

First thing unplug the ROW connector from the CPU, if the error stays an issue on the CPU, if not you have an issue out in the game.

Were you working on the game before this ?

LTG : )

#3 1 year ago

The game played perfectly. I had recently upgraded the planes, see pictures below of my mods. The game played flawlessly after upgrade and then one random power up it started. Now every time I power up it never gets past the issues. This is my grail game. I like it even better than the Williams Medieval Madness I had and recently sold. I REALLY want to play it again. Thanks for ideas. I will be back home from my cabin this weekend and unplug row connector from CPU.

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#4 1 year ago

I sold my Indy and no longer have it in front of me to test, but there was one easy spot to ground out the game, and that is underneath the moving mini playfield on the upper left. If a ball bounces, it is possible to smush the wire of one of the diodes against another diode, caussing all sorts of weird issues in the game. This can happen during gameplay with a hard bounce into the scoop right before the ball draining without you knowing, or with your hands when you are installing something else. I'd pull up that mini playfield and visually inspect if any of the diodes were "smushed" causing a short.

Good luck!

-4
#5 1 year ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

The game played perfectly. I had recently upgraded the planes, see pictures below of my mods. The game played flawlessly after upgrade and then one random power up it started. Now every time I power up it never gets past the issues. This is my grail game. I like it even better than the Williams Medieval Madness I had and recently sold. I REALLY want to play it again. Thanks for ideas. I will be back home from my cabin this weekend and unplug row connector from CPU.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Great looking IJ! Like you, Indy is my grail game. I've owned it for 20 years, and I'll never get rid of it. But I'm more of an Indiana Jones collector than a pinball collector.
That said, I noticed you've also tricked your Indy out with a ton of mods and other little additions, but your stand-up targets are still bare. A while back I made some custom metallic decals for my machine based on the treasures from the quick 2-ball multiball mode, and decided to make them available to other IJ owners who might also be interested. You seem like someone who might be interested. Not a sales pitch, just a heads up in case you missed seeing it elsewhere.
Metallic IJ DecalsMetallic IJ Decals
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1262-pinjewels/03842-indiana-jones-metallic-target-decals-free-shipping-avail

#7 1 year ago

What connector is the "ROW" connector? I want to make sure I unplug the correct connector(s)

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

What connector is the "ROW" connector? I want to make sure I unplug the correct connector(s)

Right side: (J205 & J209 are just paralleled so your plug could be on either)
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#9 1 year ago
Quoted from pins4u:

Right side: (J205 & J209 are just paralleled so your plug could be on either)
[quoted image]

thanks so much!

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

thanks so much!

Did you try LTG's suggestion with j205/209 unplugged?

While you have the back box open take a picture of your MPU board and post it. Maybe your u20 is already socketed.

#11 1 year ago

I removed all 4 of the connectors and rebooted. When it came up it displayed the following: "CHECK FUSES F114 AND F115". I reconnected the 4 connectors and the details displayed are as shown attached.

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#13 1 year ago

Please take a CRISP, CLEAR, WELL LIT, closeup of the circled area.

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#14 1 year ago

Going from bad to worse. I re-read suggestion and it only said remove 205 & 209. I had removed all of those 4 connectors. When I only took 205 & 209 it now is in a startup loop of death. Lights flash and it says:
TESTING...
50017 REV. L-7

Endless loop. Ugh

#16 1 year ago

Looks like corrosion?

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#17 1 year ago

At some point someone socketed U20 on that board so if that’s what’s wrong, easy fix.

But we need a photo of the switch levels test with the playfield switch row header disconnected from the CPI board because that eliminates or identifies the cpu board as the issue.

#18 1 year ago

The game is now in a startup loop and unable to get into test mode. I did replace the battery since I was there to rule that out. I don't understand the comment "At some point someone socketed U20 on that board so if that’s what’s wrong, easy fix." Are you saying to get a replacement for U20?

#19 1 year ago

There is no corrosion. I added another picture.

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#20 1 year ago

Well, I ordered replacement U20 and U18 chips. Hopefully it is U20. I will let you all know.

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

I don't understand the comment "At some point someone socketed U20 on that board so if that’s what’s wrong, easy fix." Well, I ordered replacement U20 and U18 chips. Hopefully it is U20. I will let you all know.

U20 is a chip responsible for the switch matrix. At some point it was replaced because it's in a socket and the boards did not originally have that chip socketed. Looks like whoever did it did not have the right number of pin socket as you can see that one of the socket pins is seperate from the socket.

The reason we wanted to see the switch levels screen with the row connector disconnected from the CPU board was to see if the issue was on the CPU board or the playfield. If disconnecting the playfield switches from the CPU clears the ground row shorts we know that you have an issue on the playfield itself. At that point I would start disconnecting opto boards one at a time under the playfield to determine if one of the opto boards has a bad LM339 chip. For example, (I'm not sure I would have to open up my IJPA to look) I think that a Row 3 ground short can be caused by the opto board that is on the left side under the playfield about 12" from the front of the pin.

disconnect all the connectors at the bottom of the cpu board and see if your pin will boot.

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

There is no corrosion. I added another picture.
[quoted image]

Take a good picture of the battery area.

#23 1 year ago

The battery was upgraded to a lithium disc. I replaced it as well.

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

The battery was upgraded to a lithium disc. I replaced it as well.

Sure, but the damage can be very subtle AND happens BEFORE the battery is replaced. Often, corrosion will lurk and show it's ugly face even months after the batteries are replaced.

I would look VERY VERY closely around the 4 x LM339s as even a tiny bit of battery corrosion will cause EXACTLY the problems you are reporting. This is why more people than just me are suggesting it.

#25 1 year ago

J206 and J208 does not get used you have J206 plugged in should be plugged in the lower one

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from Williampinball:

J206 and J208 does not get used you have J206 plugged in should be plugged in the lower one

Arent they just pinned together anyway?

Me personally I’m betting the OPs problem is going to end up being a playfield opto board

#27 1 year ago

The socket totally matches the chip. No extra pin whatsoever

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#28 1 year ago

HOWEVER, after posting the picture it appears that the socket might have issues on the last set of pins 9-10

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

HOWEVER, after posting the picture it appears that the socket might have issues on the last set of pins 9-10

The socket is probably fine. Whoever put it in didn’t have an 18 pin socket so they used a 16 pin and 2 singles.

#30 1 year ago

I still think you have a corrosion issue - maybe not causing this problem but you need to look VERY critically around here:
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Looking more closely you DO have corrosion issues - in a few places.
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These tracks are SUPER fine and break at the slightest sniff of battery corrosion.

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from pins4u:

I still think you have a corrosion issue

Agreed, LOTS of battery corrosion from some time before. Telltale dull solder all over that area below where the batteries were.

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from The_Pump_House:

Arent they just pinned together anyway?
Me personally I’m betting the OPs problem is going to end up being a playfield opto board

I am not sure are they ?

#33 1 year ago

I replaced U20 reseated all connectors on board and replaced the battery. After those changes I was able to get into settings and set date and time and set to free play. Settings took. It still ignores the button being pressed to start a game, but at least the DMD and everything appears to work. I will try disconnecting 1 opto at a time and see what changes if anything.

#34 1 year ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

I replaced U20 reseated all connectors on board and replaced the battery. After those changes I was able to get into settings and set date and time and set to free play. Settings took. It still ignores the button being pressed to start a game, but at least the DMD and everything appears to work. I will try disconnecting 1 opto at a time and see what changes if anything.

The start button not working could very well be a problem with the button itself.

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from The_Pump_House:

The start button not working could very well be a problem with the button itself.

Yep! Was about to ask OP to go into switch test and verify the physical switch is working.

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from NPO:

Yep! Was about to ask OP to go into switch test and verify the physical switch is working.

Yup. Make sure it’s inserted correctly and make sure the bulb isn’t interfering with a full button depression

#37 1 year ago

The built in test menu is the BEST resource you have EVERY TIME for locating and identifying ANY problem you have in WMS machines particularly.

Your best course of action is to familiarise yourself with ALL the tests and go to them FIRST if you EVER have a problem!

The second step (AFTER you have identified the issue using the menu/tests) is to read the WIKI https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Then, and ONLY then, should you start asking others to help BUT by then you will have resolved 80% of any problems that might arise.

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from NPO:

Yep! Was about to ask OP to go into switch test and verify the physical switch is working.

There's pretty extensive prior battery damage on the CPU board that was not cleaned up properly. That's the root problem, most likely. Get that fixed, then move from there.

1 week later
#39 1 year ago

Back home and replaced the cherry switch that is integrated into the start button. In replacing the wires I found two other lugs that appear related but not connected. So The start switch is a clue. Can someone post a picture of their start switch wiring or validate mine looks right.

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#40 1 year ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

In replacing the wires I found two other lugs that appear related but not connected. So The start switch is a clue. Can someone post a picture of their start switch wiring or validate mine looks right.

Your DMD says the wire colors are right. The other two wires are for the lamp in the start button.

LTG : )

#41 1 year ago

You are going to continue chasing your tail while you deny the existence of corrosion around the most sensitive area of the MPU AND this is the area that is DIRECTLY responsible for your "ground short" error most likely.

It is a known and common problem with these boards.

#42 1 year ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

Back home and replaced the cherry switch that is integrated into the start button. In replacing the wires I found two other lugs that appear related but not connected. So The start switch is a clue. Can someone post a picture of their start switch wiring or validate mine looks right.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

FINALLY!!! 26 days and we finally got a picture of the switch test screen!!!!

Look at the 2nd image you posted of the switch test.

Forget about the start button. You still have a full row 3 ground fault so no switches work on that row. Stop shotgunning and do the basic troubleshooting test that was asked of you weeks ago to isolate the problem to the playfield or the MPU.

With that test screen up on your DMD unplug the cabinet switch row connector from the MPU.

Do some of the row 3 boxes turn off?

Yes - at some place along the white orange wire path between the switches on columns 3 that wire has a path to ground. It’s pinched, has a screw sticking through it’s sheath or there’s a broken solder joint

No - you have a problem on your MPU board. Remove it from the machine, put it in a box and ship it to one of the many competent board repair people here on pinside.

#43 1 year ago

For what it's worth, I had a similar problem on IJ years ago. Traced and traced and every test I did indicated it was the 10 opto board. I even replaced the LM339's. No go. Ordered a new replacement board and that fixed it and years later it's still working.

#44 1 year ago
Quoted from Seamlesswall:

For what it's worth, I had a similar problem on IJ years ago. Traced and traced and every test I did indicated it was the 10 opto board. I even replaced the LM339's. No go. Ordered a new replacement board and that fixed it and years later it's still working.

If we could eliminate the MPU as the problem the opto board is the next thing I would unplug.

#45 1 year ago
Quoted from The_Pump_House:

If we could eliminate the MPU as the problem the opto board is the next thing I would unplug.

MPU is the problem. Clear battery damage all over that area below where the batteries go.

#46 1 year ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

MPU is the problem. Clear battery damage all over that area below where the batteries go.

Look closely at the IC to the right of U19. Battery damage under the green mask above and below that IC. So there is probably a lot more damage you can't see.

LTG : )

2 weeks later
#47 1 year ago

THANK YOU Seamlesswall

Quoted from Seamlesswall:

For what it's worth, I had a similar problem on IJ years ago. Traced and traced and every test I did indicated it was the 10 opto board. I even replaced the LM339's. No go. Ordered a new replacement board and that fixed it and years later it's still working.

I knew it was NEVER a corrosion issue. Maybe my pictures looked different than reality. I disconnected the Opto board connector and game booted with no issue except opto's were dead. I just installed the replacement board from Marco and played a few games. Game play is perfect. No issues.

So what I hope some of you take notice is that making suggestions is great, but when people say your suggestion is Not applicable, please don't turn hostile. Nobody wins with bad attitudes. I appreciate everyone that threw ideas. Seamless gets the prize!

#48 1 year ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

THANK YOU Seamlesswall

I knew it was NEVER a corrosion issue. Maybe my pictures looked different than reality. I disconnected the Opto board connector and game booted with no issue except opto's were dead. I just installed the replacement board from Marco and played a few games. Game play is perfect. No issues.
So what I hope some of you take notice is that making suggestions is great, but when people say your suggestion is Not applicable, please don't turn hostile. Nobody wins with bad attitudes. I appreciate everyone that threw ideas. Seamless gets the prize!

I wouldn't get too cocky just yet. You have corrosion issues that will bite one day no matter if you like to see that or not.

The advice offered here from many is usually with lots of years experience in this specific area. To dismiss this advice with your cocky response won't help you in the future.

Good luck with your machine.

#49 1 year ago

This is a support site not a bashing site. If you are going to "help" in the guise of being arrogant, I'd rather you pass by. There are plenty of genuine helpful people on this site. I hope you consider your general demeanor. It is quite unbecoming. I never said I have all the answers. I also understand that I might suggest something that has no bearing on the issue. Anyway. Thanks for the help.

#50 1 year ago
Quoted from Golgotha:

This is a support site not a bashing site. If you are going to "help" in the guise of being arrogant, I'd rather you pass by. There are plenty of genuine helpful people on this site. I hope you consider your general demeanor. It is quite unbecoming. I never said I have all the answers. I also understand that I might suggest something that has no bearing on the issue. Anyway. Thanks for the help.

Have a read of your own posts before throwing stones!

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