There is a HUGE difference between 2 guys building ANYTHING in their garage and a assembly line constructing a thousand machines buying all parts at cost, the profit is in volume, just ask Henry ford lol

It is sad you have to point this out . Get with the program people . This isn't healthy for the whole hobby !

For someone who knows so very little about the product, you are saying a lot of things.

To some extend i agree, when you have the rights and build the thing, you can ask for it what you want.

But does that not have any limit with you guys? You would be ok if they asked 50k and 1000 madmen baught them?

I cannot believe that. There must be a theoretical limit for everybody to still think, ok, this is decend, anything more is not.

Shipping included in mine.

Look how far the whole MM remake project got when Wayne was was charging $5 grand......
If $8000 is the magic number to motivate Rick to get the project done in a very reasonable time frame with a quality product than whats there to argue??

I will be honest, Im not buying, not because of price/money, I wasnt buying MM's when I could get them for $4500, but I dont think he is out of line with his price model.
Rick is a for profit business, Gene lost money on his BBB project, I am sure, Rick doesnt want to take any chances. I will say, I do see certain LE's from a certain manufacture that really makes me want to scratch my head though.

A high end restoration is also going to cost in that price range as well- not including the game.

Just my 2 cents, take that, and add $7999.98 and you have yourself a brand new MM remake

Scott
Detroit Pinball

I just read most of the posts in this thread. I have one stupid question as I was not really involved in this hobby 4-5 years ago. It appears to me the total cost delivered of this MM remake will be about $8,500 and people are jumping over each other to buy one. They may have been jumping all over each other for $9,500 to get to one is my guess.

Now this is my "stupid confusion". In 2009-2010 I believe you could have gotten one for around $5K-$6K that was in really great shape for that price. I know someone who got a BEAUTY for around $6K 4 years ago. He wanted one and he bought one. So my question is if so many people wanted one why didn't they buy them back 4-5 years ago. My "gut feeling" is because $5K-$6K seemed high and since people see them selling for $12K or more today the $8.5K delivered looks like a BARGAIN !!! Just funny to me how human nature works......seems to me the thought process is I can get a game for $8.5K that I would have had to pay $15K for so let me buy it. However, when it was $5K and I am sure the game was still ranked #1 people didn't want to spend the $5K....why ??? Because they thought it was too much money. SO IS IT THE VALUE PROPOSITION that is driving everyone to buy the game for $8.5K or the fact everyone truly wanted one.......just an observation.....I have no doubt if I was into the hobby like I am today back in 2008 or so I would have every title I ever desired as they were all reasonable even AFM, MB and MM.

Truly, inflation from 2009 until today in most items hasn't moved much so 2009's $5K shouldn't be todays $8.5K so again that is my confusion......why is it such a value today at $8.5K and wasn't 4-5 years ago ?

Just a question guys so don't "string me up"......all of a sudden $8.5K is cheap. Personally, I feel it is more because people feel they are getting a $12K game for a BARGAIN.....now if that is the case and they are right then one of two things have to happen......the $8.5K game goes way up in value OR the $12K ++ game comes down....my guess is they both happen and meet somewhere in the middle as the old MM loses value and possibly the new MM goes for more (which my bet is most people are counting on when they put in their order).

However, I don't feel based on what I am hearing that the LE will be worth that much more then the Standard. This isn't a TRON LE with different playability and it appears everything in the LE can easily be added to the Standard to make it an LE (will come with a cost but not a dramatic cost it appears). So I doubt the LE will sky rocket like the TRON LE did for example....again, just my opinion but most shouldn't care if bought for the "right reason" (to play it and enjoy it for years).

I do find this "amusing" and "entertaining" and feel it will drive prices down a little but who knows for sure.

Here is a quiz about pricing:

Let's say you start a burrito factory. Your goal is to make burritos and sell them at a "reasonable" profit.

You hire employees, rent a building, insurance, computers, machinery, supply chain, raw materials (ingredients), etc. Your total startup costs are $150,000 and the per unit cost for each burrito is $3 at max production capacity. Your labor is $10/hour between pay and insurance, and you need five line workers to make the burritos. Your factory can produce 500 burritos per day. How would you figure out what to charge for each burrito?

Choose the BEST answer:

A) Take the total cost of ingredients and labor to assemble each burrito and then add a 20% markup.

B) Take the total startup costs of the company (150k) and spread that over 5 years (30k/year). Now add the costs of the burrito-making (as in A) and divide by the total number of burritos that year.

C) Take B, but also factor in depreciation of assets, rising rent and rising health care costs for employees and adjust the price accordingly.

D) Ask a stoned teenager what he thinks.

Obviously A! Duh...

Minus labor of course, who factors that?

would only expect comments like this coming from a MM owner.

i like cheese enchiladas
would rather the factory make pinball machines...

Edit.

Fixed it for you

Actually just saw a Restaurant Impossible with Robert Irvine, he said when pricing food, the rule is 3X + 1. 2 dollar burrito = $7.00

How would you offer it to a Pinsider without offering it on Pinside? So, I would say your're wrong.

Like this maybe?

Same thing, letting Pinsiders PM him if they want his spot. Both of you posted you were giving up your spot. His was less wordy. He is not flipping it, you were not flipping it. Both did a good deed.

I guess it's OK.

I agree that $8,000 feels more reasonable because this game has been selling for so much (people probably wouldn't be lining up to buy a remade Judge Dredd at $8,000). But I hope people don't think the remake is going to appreciate in value -- with the unlimited edition available and virtually identical to the LE, there's no reason anyone would buy a used one for more than $8,000 when they can get a new one for that price. Maybe in a few years if they stop producing them that could change, but they can always run another batch if prices go nuts again, so this can't really be viewed as a collector's item or an investment -- it's an opportunity to own a great game for a significant (but significantly lower than recent market) price.

I know him personally, you don't. He offered up something pro bono- so did you. But hey, your entitled to your opinion.

I don't like the price, but I'm in for a preorder. It's refundable until the final approval. If things don't look good, I can back out. Are they pricing this too high? Probably. But should they leave money on the table? No.

If this puts a lot of money into their hands, maybe the next project will be pre-funded and it can be cheaper and easier. Running your first pinball machine is going to be costly. Stern has the luxury of having an assembly line ready to go and infrastructure in place. Planetary Pinball does not have that going for them at this point. Even Jersey Jack had production in place from his redemption games.

The margin is probably good here. I'm sure it has to be to get anybody motivated to do such a project. I do feel like I'm probably overpaying, but it's still worth it to me.

I think part of it is that you could buy a new machine for around $4.5k when a decent run of the mill MM would cost you $6k. Now that the latest JJP and Stern LE is being sold for around $8k, being able to buy an NIB MM (arguably one of the best pins ever) for the same price seems very reasonable.

The unspoken part of what he is saying is that he has to sell food that people are willing to buy at price A, that he can produce at 1/3 of price A.

If the dish costs him $15, and he arbitrarily triples it ($45), but buyers are only willing to pay $15, he will not be in business very long! He has to figure out how to get the cost of that dish down to $5 or scrap it and try another recipe.

So, who is setting the price? The seller, or the buyer?

This really is my last reply... because Frax directed this at me...

Thanks you just proved what I was saying.

Yes; I'm in an STLE... do I think it's worth 8k... hell no. But I'm in that Title because of the specific theme. I am also a MET fan... and wanted a METLE... but I wasn't paying those prices. You know DAMN well I've stated all along that this would be my one and only NIB Stern.

The difference here sir... isn't in manufacturing using RETAIL parts. The difference is that PPS already has the supply line setup in volume for small scale retail. Instead of ordering 20 castles or 20 PFs... he orders 1500 castles... at a significant cost savings due the volume.

The difference between an STLE from stern (or JJP for WoZ) vs PPS's MMr... is that Stern had to pay engineers/designers/software devs UPFRONT to develop said game. PPS has maybe 1/10th of that overhead on the frontend. Hell; they probably have all the work done already except designing the wiring harness. Toys and PFs are already done. He's already "amortized" the cost of that front in work during the sale of this retail replacements.

The PF design work, game design work, and software was paid for by Williams 20 years ago. PPS has none of that cost... and to not pass that "R&D" savings to the customer is well... just sad. OR more specifically that people allowed it to happen.

If Stern or JJP can design and sell a *new* LE game for $8k... then PPS has No Biz *IMHO* selling a reproduction for that much.

Most of you get what I'm saying... and my opinion is my own.
I respect the concept of a market driven pricing structure... but I don't have to like it.

I think we're missing a few things here.
A. not the same boards
B. no DMD
C. Different company that has to make as close to the original as possible
D. Companies first crack at this
F. still have to tool everything up to make these on a line
G. etc.
There's probably a little more than meets the eye with the costs involved to make this project happen and with no idea exactly how many actual buyers there would be they had to hope for 1000 and price it as such to be profitable. I would've loved for this thing to be 6k but I was ready to buy at 8 because I knew that would be a more realistic number.

Not only do you seem to have access to the BOM but you also have knowledge of the secret deal where Harry Williams reanimated corpse gave Planetary all their IP for free.

Did I miss something? If there is no DMD then going to cancel my order.

So a manufacturer who can take advantage of scale is required to pass on those savings to customers? Sorry, that's just naive. Competition forces him to pass on those savings, or other self-interest (promotions, market penetration).

Iphone sucks for responding to threads!

I'm not sure I follow you.

Sorry I meant not DMD I believe its an LCD.

I think jonnyo is saying that its priced with the competition as we should expect. I don't think he's trying to say it should be priced where the originals were when they were made.

I don't know why everyone is going nuts over this. I took the family on vacation this year for about $8500 I didn't think it was a good deal. It's what it cost. I didn't think I was going to make money off of it. There were probably other trips that would have been more economical, but we had a good time with no regrets. As far as old vs new send a new one to hep and compare it to the ones that were selling for 14000 a month ago. A lot of people are going to say the apples to oranges thing. But it's just my opinion. Nothing to get upset over.

"Nothing to lose" eh? You lost about $4000 in equity in that machine and your bitterness is showing.

You really think that having giant PCB's drive the game is important? It's 2013 meatball. Every single classic arcade game from the golden age can fit on a memory card the size of a finger nail. Less components is a positive, not negative.

We get it. It's stings. It burns. It really hurts that your machine lost some of its overinflated value. It's not a life-changing amount. You'll get over it.

The thing that kills me is all the people saying that they would never buy a NIB Stern now until they get to play it are giving this a free pass.

Medieval Madness is a known quantity. MMr is not. We don't know about the lighting, we don't know about the boards, we don't know about the playfield or clear coat quality (unless they are using from existing stock), the display is different, etc...etc...etc. In many cases these might be improvements, and I hope they are.

I want this to do well for Planetary, but the people that drove like lemmings to an announcement are crazy to me. It's like the Juston Beiber fans when a new CD is released. I AM excited that these are going to be released, but at 8K I will never be able to afford one. And that is fine. I get just as much enjoyment from a Black Knight 2000, Monopoly, or any other non A list game I have. The arguments on the forums are certainly "first world problems".

My only question.....how was the BUILD quality of Vacation America? I ask only because that is the company that will be building these for Planetary.

I hope that all who are in on the pre-order are happy with the machine. This is what I would like to see.

Have a great day!
Chris

You could afford one you would just have to have 6 machines in your collection instead of 12 .

Touche! But at 8K, I don't want one.

Chris

3 little words: New. In. Box.

1997 is coming up on being 17 years ago. That's a long time for a wire harness and sockets and other parts - moving parts - that haven't been replaced but that were routed hard back in the day...and maybe yesterday. That's the main reason I'm not paying $5k for a STTNG, even though I'd love to own a nice example of the game. That game is nearly 21 years old. Shows you how great those games are when my near perfect, low production CSI didn't budge priced at $3,600.

Plus 1000, except the part about BK2K... It is an A lister and you better not ever say anything else in front of it. The aftermath could be very bad for you.

I'd say that your opinion is rather uninformed. Maybe you haven't heard, but they have $8M in "biz" selling a reproduction for that much.

How do you feel about the people making millions off bottled water?

Wow, people care so much about a pin that we have all played before and as of lately with the better sci-fi and marvel based Sterns really seems kinda child like and jokey and showing it's age. Would it not have been better for this company to make a new original pin if even based on MM. I think in the next few years a lot of these 90's pins will goes wayside and drop in price. I owned a MM it was great and all but how many times can you hit the castle and the trolls before it becomes a little been there done that. I'm happy to all who love this game and want a new version but I'd much rather have something new. I think that's why you will see more dropout's over time. I can't wait for StarTrek LE it looks amazing.

I guess I don't understand your point? There are a lot of things we don't know, and the game isn't done. I'm not sure why you are confused as to why people put down a $1K fully refundable deposit to secure their place in line? Are you suggesting we are all going to have to pay $8,000 before we know all the details? I'm sure that's not the case.

What does this have to do with a NIB Stern? When you buy a NIB Stern you are buying a shell of a game for $8,000. With MM14, you don't commit a dime until you have all the info and you get a 100% finished product. How in any way are they the same?

Justin Beiber fans put down $1.50 refundable deposits on CDs until they get to hear it and then have to commit their final $10.50 right before it ships? That's crazy! I never would have thought buying MM14 was like buying a Justin Beiber CD! What's the name of your music store?

Also, Vacation America has nothing to do with it. Just a strange comment. Again, are you trying to say that MM14 will be built to the same specifications as Vacation America? Do you really believe that?

Some of us (me) feel that "jokey humor" is something that has been sorely missing from most current production pins for a long time! I'd say at this point there are plenty of "Marvel based" pins out there if that's what floats your boat.

Because I quoted the wrong person...my bad.

if new Sterns really were better the LEs wouldn't have sold out in like 3 hours. Obviously many people are tired of unfinished code and cheap finish. also, maybe superheroes and dad rock aren't as grown up as you think they are.

How does it not have anything to do with it? For all your "we don't know anything yet" comments, we do know that the same company who fully produced Vacation America in 2002, and since then works contractually with Stern, is being contracted to work on MMR. If the playfields are being assembled/populated by CGC, that would in fact be only the second time that they've done that -- second only to Vacation America.

The people who say "I hate Sterns, they feel cheap!" but are so sure MMR will feel just like a Bally/Williams made 17 years and a recession ago, sure are expecting a lot. Some (myself included) don't think it matters; most just want to play the game. We won't know until it arrives, but to assume that a company whose latest products mostly include cheap arcade cabinets with <10lbs of hardware/electronics in them (sans monitors) are going to make a pin just like it was made 17 years ago is a reach, to say the least.

The one common theme so far is that every post like this ^ seems to come from someone with an MM in their collection. Again Roger WILL NOT sign off on this game unless it is right! It must look and play like the original (minus the W/williams logo) or it will not be made.

I agree. The humor makes me smile. Gotta have lots of laughs in life, including "jokey humor".

So, again, just so I understand. Because Stern orders things a certain way, and 11 years ago they made a game a certain way, that's how MM14 will be? How in the hell does that make ANY sense? Do you think think that Stern has no input on the play field process, that they just take what is given to them? Do you think Stern is ordering cabs that are of one quality, getting another and just throwing their hands up with an oh-well?

They make things based on customer specs and quality standards.

I guess you are technically right, back in the day they didn't make AND assemble play fields for Williams, but making the playfield is the hard and important part, assembling them is either correct or it's not.

These are the same guys that made Williams play fields. Customers (Williams, Stern, PP) recieve products based on their specifications. What they've done in the past, and what they've done since only demestrates the gammit of what they're capable of, nothing more.

Rick has stated already that MM14 will be made of the highest quality materials based fully on Williams specifications. Can't we give the guy a chance? Do we have any reason not to believe the people involved in this project?

In my opinion, the character and reputation of these people mean something. And if I'm wrong, I'll take my $1K back and buy something else. They don't want that to happen, they would be leaving millions of dollars on the table if that happened.

I was always opposed the "phony" gold of the power coat gold trim until I bought Mike's polished brass kits for my TOM and POTC. Don't get me wrong...they were beautiful. And it sure made the games standout. But the surfaces did not hold up well to the oils in people's hands. It did not take that long for the surfaces to start clouding and blemishing, and believe me I cleaned those areas before and after anyone ever played them in an attempt to avoid the damage that the oils in our hands cause. Now that I think about it...the chrome I got from him for my MM started showing damage after about a year too. Again, I am not slamming Mike's process in the least. He does great work. Its just the nature of the product that does not lend itself to long term use without showing it.
I would rather see these games done in a gold with a high quality power coated finish like Alex puts on the WOZLE games. It will hold up much better unless you have everyone that plays your game use white linen gloves.

A good plating job is a good plating job. You get what you pay for.