For me, this one isn't close. I went Ghostbusters. Nothing against The Hobbit, it just didn't move the needle for me.

FT sucks, but it's nowhere near the abomination that SP is. That's a mindless game that is nothing but awful in all aspects.

I don't think I've played The Hobbit under ideal circumstances, but even with that, I'm just not a big fan of the shot map. There's not much to hit, and it's made worse by spreading the shots out across a widebody. Combine that with the fact that it's broken all the time (seriously, something always seems to be breaking down), and I would easily take Ghostbusters over The Hobbit.

The Ghostbusters vs. WoZ is a more interesting debate, because I feel like the differences are more subjective. GB vs. TH, I think it's hard to pick TH if you're being objective.

I don't think that The Hobbit will ever be a masterpiece, regardless of code. The shot layout just isn't there.

WPT is ugly, but it's a great player. Lots of fun. Too many people can't see past the art to give it a fair shake, however.

After hours of play on each, I really don't think it's a very close comparison at this point. The Hobbit has potential, but that potential is pretty limited. The shots just aren't there. Great code can elevate a game, but it can only take it so far before you start to realize that the shot layout is just not great. The novelty of the pop ups goes away fast, and the upper flipper is just outright useless. TH isn't a bad game, but it's a step back from the more dynamic game that WoZ turned out to be with its huge shot map. Ball times are also WAY too long, even on a game with a steep pitch.

As for Ghostbusters, it has tons of shots, and they feel great. The code is already strong, and has lots of time left to mature. Even when the game beats you up, and it does often, it's still fun to play "one more time" over and over. After failing a mode, however, it is a bit of a dangerous grind to get modes lit once more. Code can change how this all works in big ways, but the game's pacing is a little uneven right now.

I can see how someone would play the two games and get excited by The Hobbit's quick accessibility and flashiness, but with a really pedestrian shot chart, the game will most likely not have the sort of long-term appeal that Ghostbusters will have.

TH is not a bad game, and will improve over time, but I'm not expecting it to be viewed as one of pinball's greats years down the road. I do think Ghostbusters will be, however.

Those are games with good layouts. The Hobbit doesn't have a shot chart that measures up with any of those three.

Don't be dense. That's a ridiculous statement. It's flat out untrue.

The inverse is also true...

LOTR and TSPP are two of my top 10 games of all time. They're perfect examples of great layouts combines with great code. But that's the thing, they have both, not just one.

He's too busy clicking thumbs up or thumbs down on posts to actually understand that. White Knight duty is hard.

GoT premium is a definite misfire. The pro is a better game, for sure.

Panzer, you need to put down your sword and shield and let people talk. At this point you've directly argued with yourself passionately. That's...well, that's something. This thread is a "VS" thread. You can't ask for strong opinions and then get mad when people offer them. As long as they're reasoned, there's no need to jump down their throat and make up things that aren't true to support your side of the argument.

There's no rational way to define shots in any way that gets you to a point where you can conclude that The Hobbit has more shots than Wizard of Oz. Don't waste your time doing it, because nobody will buy it. Just. Stop.

I don't think anybody would be disappointed with The Hobbit. It's a solid game. Aside from games that are solid top 10 games, just about anything will have another game, or several, that you can point to as an example of a better game. That doesn't make The Hobbit worse simply because there are better games. Something like BSD is a fantastic game, but the majority of people out there are going to say that MM is better. That doesn't make BSD a disappointment.

The Hobbit is a good game, but the point of this thread was to compare it directly to Ghostbusters. GB has more going for it right now. That doesn't make GB the best game ever and TH the worst game ever. Even preferring GB doesn't mean that you're putting down TH.

I like TZ more than WoZ. That doesn't mean that I hate WoZ. Heck, I like TZ more than GB at this point, but if I could only buy one of the two right now, I'd buy GB. People should be able to say those sorts of things without some pinball zealot running up to get in their face.

Just there, you're missing some shots. You missed several shots on WoZ. Either way, this isn't how people define shots in pinball. Don't try to change a standard definition to make a weak point.

It's a real shame that the code never got completed on Wheel of Fortune or that the layout couldn't be repurposed for another theme. It's really a fun game and totally unique. And man, that's probably the most legit "skill shot" of any plunge I can think of. It's ridiculously hard to get.

And before anybody questions it, I do think that Keith Johnson is the best programmer we have right now in pinball. He's probably the best ever.

At shows, the lines for Ghostbusters vs. The Hobbit are heavily slanted in GB's favor. At least 5 in most cases that I've seen. At home, it depends on mood entirely. If you have 45 minutes, play one game of The Hobbit. If you have 10 minutes, play two of Ghostbusters. Haha.

Actually, if you're in a 4 player game, you're just relieved that it's over with The Hobbit. Too long.

Panzer, dude, chill out. You're more defensive than a mama bear. Posting a spec sheet one more time isn't going to sway opinion, and that's ok! It's so irritating that you smother out every critical comment with loads of premanufactured responses that we've all read a thousand times.

If you are going to accuse people of being rude, take a look at your own behavior first.

If you say GB2 three times, Beetlekirk appears and raises up the shield.

I like GB2 though...

No...no!

I helped fix The Hobbit a couple of times this weekend. That thing is like a tank. It definitely had weightier feel all around than any version of Ghostbusters.

Not just built heavy, you can tell that JJP uses better quality materials across the board. Better wood, better metals, better plastics, better decals, better clearcoat. The engineering is still coming along though. Too many things were reinvented that didn't need to be that cause issues, but those are getting worked out. That left habitrail is a good example of that. Great quality, but shoddily engineered (though a fix is coming to replace that).

JJP isn't alone in that though. Designers often want to change things that they will perceive to be better aesthetically or by feel and they just prove to not be when it comes to reliability.

Those sorts of discussions are all distraction from what matters though. Which of the two games is more fun? Well, they're wildly different. Ghostbusters is very fast, focuses on chaining together accurate shots, and knowing quickly where to go next. The Hobbit is much slower, much more deliberate, and sort of allows you to wander in and out of stuff. If you don't like a fast and punishing game, GB won't be for you no matter what. If you don't like a slower game, TH is not going to hook you either.

I probably put more time on The Hobbit more than any other game over the weekend. There were three at RMPS and it was easy to get on a game without a wait, or only having to wait out the person currently playing. I put high scores on all three machines, so I had some good games too. The game is just simply a step back from WoZ. WoZ is a fantastic game that has a layout that favors very deep code integration. TH is the opposite. They may throw complex modes into the game, but the layout doesn't back it up. Some modes need to be outright removed too. Bash the Orc?! We don't get enough of bashing pop ups already?

The controlled drop targets are cool, especially with the stand up targets behind them. It's pretty fun trapping up, waiting to fire, and then nailing it just right. Backhanding the ramps also feels very nice, and the shots to the holes (can't really call 'em scoops) are challenging.

In the end, however, the game is just not for me at this time. The pop ups need to be appearing far less often. After a minute or two into the game, they just start to feel like an annoyance, especially when the game is telling you to hit a ramp but those stupid things keep blocking the shot. They wreck flow and conflict with game goals. They make the multiballs just a frenzied mess.

The game is fairly slow. That's not always bad, but with the pop up lids and the rollovers all over the middle areas of the game, you get a lot of balls that have their trajectory altered. Shots to the captive ball, to the drop targets, and ramp shots that take a U-turn are always getting redirected by a playfield surface that isn't flat.

Build quality, art, lighting, fit and finish, the Hobbit is a winner. Gameplay is decent right now, and will ultimately be improved through code, but that layout will always be a limiting factor. It's probably going to be a very good game for casuals, families, and location. It might even be fine in a larger collection, but I would be wary of it in a single title collection or a small one. Down the line, I think WoZ will be the better of the two based on the strength of layout and rules.

I'll give my thoughts on GB later as it is a "vs." thread now that I've played both pro and premium.

Ok, so I've played both Ghostbusters pro and premium a lot. Before comparing to TH, I'll talk about the difference between those two real briefly in regards to value. We all know the feature differences, so I won't rehash those.

The Slimer is MUCH better on the premium/LE than it is on the pro. I really enjoyed how he moved around and that if you wanted to go for a him in a safer position, you could trap up and let him move. The right ramp isn't any easier to hit, but the look of the ball ripping around that curve and coming back to your left flipper is nice. I chained 3 shots together on it, just because it felt good to keep hitting. The steeper left ramp doesn't change a lot, but overall, the left ramp just looks much cooler as the ball comes around and picks up speed before dropping down and back up for a second. The scoop on the right is also more reliable than a saucer.

Does that all add up to $2000 worth more in value? I don't think so. I'm in for an LE, and I feel like I'm grossly overpaying compared to a premium or a pro, but I've been waiting on GB to be made as a theme forever. It's the one title I'm willing to go all in on, but I know that the pro model is a great buy. Yes, the premium is better, but probably not $2000 better. This isn't AC/DC where the gap between pro and premium is massive. This is more like TWD. The extras are nice, but no major concessions on a pro.

That said, everything I say will be based on the premium from here on out.

GB is in a pretty good spot now, but its scoring is weird. I don't know if it's weird in a bad way, but it's kind of unpredictable until you've put a lot of time on it. Modes are worth tons of points, and when you're between modes, it can be a little like chopping wood, which is somewhat frustrating in a game that's so full of dangerous shots. At least Slimer is a safer shot on the premium, but the target that activates him is the most dangerous shot in the game. Besides modes, bonuses are the other big chunk of your score. Build up a big bonus, complete modes, and you'll score huge. If you're more used to relying on multiballs for score, you will need to change your thinking on GB.

The shot layout is great. There's not any gimme shots anywhere as they packed a lot of shots in, so everything is fairly narrow. It can lead to lots of post hits and drains, but made shots feel so blasted good. If you're not an accurate shooter or you're impatient to improve, this game will probably frustrate you. I kind of worry how long it's going to take my wife and kids to enjoy the game. When Iron Man was brand new, my wife hated it. She enjoys it now, but it took at least 6 months. GB is going to be similar, I think.

The modes are a lot of fun, but I understand how the progression ladders are going to be controversial. Personally, I think the progression is great! Chaining modes through a strong ball is so cool. From We Got One, to the Sedgewick Hotel, to He Slimed Me, to The Ballroom is quite a great progression. It's like the 2nd act of the movie tightly integrated into the shots. If you struggle to complete modes, you can at least continue them later, but for lesser-skilled players, they're not going to see some of those upper ladder modes very often.

The dots and animations are great, but I'm not a fan of the red DMD. I think this will look fantastic with Color DMD down the line, but it's going to be a wait and it's obviously going to cost extra. The hard work that went into good animations get lost in that red mud of that display.

The magna slings are still something I'm forming my opinion on. On one hand, I love that they're different, but honestly, 70% of the time they're like normal slings with less kick. 5% of the time they do something really cool, like making the ball move in a circle or in a loop to the inlane. 5% of the time they screw you by pulsing just enough to center the ball over the drain and let it fall. The other 20% of the time, they don't even fire and you get a dead bounce. I'm sure switch adjusting can alter all that stuff if you make them more sensitive. I don't know, I'm glad they're in the game, but they're not anything revolutionary or disastrous. I wouldn't base a purchase on them.

We all know that the art is spectacular. Along with Metallica and TSPP, Ghostbusters is the best Stern has ever offered in regards to art. The audio is right there too! Great use of licensed music and the original tracks are perfect for the theme. Tracks like Spook Central feel like they were pulled right from the 80s. The voice acting has its ups and downs. It's not bad, but it's nowhere near what we've had from games like TSPP, LOTR, or the original SM, either. Certain voice clips sound phoned in, but I do think that Ernie Hudson tried to do his best.

Bottom line, however, is that Ghostbusters is fun to play, and watching it is engaging. The ball flies around quickly, and the game plays smoothly if you're making shots. It's a very tough game. Along with IM and TWD, GB is one of Stern's most challenging games. I'd say it's probably #3 in regards to difficulty, so you have to love a challenge to enjoy this game.

Choosing between the two, I would take Ghostbusters, and it's not close for me. Sure, others will find that GB stresses them out and gravitate towards TH, but I like the increased challenge and better flow of GB. The pop ups, the simple layout, and the overly long ball times on TH with constantly interrupted flow keep the game from comparing well against GB for what I'm looking for in pinball right now. 6-7 years ago, I might have liked TH more, but not today and definitely not going forward as I keep improving as a player.

If you have the money for both, they do compliment each other well, I think. Very different experiences.

You are comparing your personal experience against the entirety of Pinside's experience. If you want to do that, you have to recognize the problems others have had with The Hobbit that you have not.

Stern has had some bad playfields go out, that's obvious. Is it more than in the past, or are the issues just easier to document and expose online these days? I think it's probably some of both. But you also have to remember that they're putting out probably 10-20 times more games than JJP is per day and the games with issues ratio doesn't seem to be any worse.

More silly than you ignoring that I said it's both increased exposure and also increased number of bad playfields, but you only focusing on half the statement? More silly than that?

Who says it should be tolerated?

The gap between pro and premium is probably the smallest on Metallica than any other Stern title.

Are you always this obstinate, or only when you have money down on a game?

The insert is separating from the clearcoat. It looks like a bubble of air in the finish around the edges.

Well, we can talk about build quality or whatever, but both games are going to have some level of issues for different reasons. GB has a lot of cheap components (believe me, I have a GB LE and the switches are MUCH cheaper quality than Stern used to use) that may hold up fine in a HUO setting, but they're definitely not as solid as what you get on TH. On the other hand, TH has plenty of issues due to dodgy or questionable engineering. Lots of issues on TH have needed fixes from JJP or users. It's really a pick your poison issue. To say that either is better comes down to what sort of issue you'd rather deal with (quality of component vs. quality of implementation).

The real deciding factor between the two games is still in how the games play. Arguing over quality (or weight of the machine) is nothing but a dead end argument.

The point is that some people just don't want to deal with replacing ramps or adding fixes to their games. Some people don't want to find 5 broken switches out of the box. Others are fine. I'm just saying that both games have their out of the box issues and both games are going to require some initial upfront work. The type of problems vary, but they're all problems in the end. There's no reason to choose either game based on that consideration, so it's still boils down to gameplay, where actual preference is going to matter.

If flow and variation matter, go Ghostbusters. If features and mode complexity matter, go The Hobbit.

The "Slimer problem" is one of those bad adjustment and QC oversight deals. Most people don't have an issue, and pretty much everybody has been able to resolve their Slimer problem by adjusting the switch. It's just really weak of Stern to let them go out haphazardly adjusted. For as slowly as the games are coming out from Stern right now, they should be QC'd to death. My GB LE had several issues out of the box that were definitely a result of a lack of proper testing. I've been able to fix them, but it was crazy that I even had to. The switch quality that they're using is awful, and they are super sensitive to exact adjustment.

These, again, are examples of what I was saying. Stern uses lower quality components. No matter how reliable they prove to be, they're still lower quality components. I think arguing that Stern uses high quality components would be wrong. JJP has a different issue. Their quality is high, that's obvious once you start poking around. Where JJP has run into trouble is through engineering mishaps. For those that know the full history of The Hobbit's development, it's insane how many engineering problems needed to be corrected.

Now, JJP has learned a lot from its first two titles. Going forward those engineering mistakes will be minimized. New ideas will always come with new problems, but they're figuring it out. They're learning how to test and stress test against scenarios that they just didn't think they'd need to before.

While Stern usually has the engineering down, are they going to be willing to improve on quality, or will profit margin always be the first consideration? Comparing my TSPP, Spider-Man, Tron, Iron Man (original), AC/DC, and GB LE...it's obvious that TONS of quality corners have been cut across the years and it really shows on GB. Sure, GB will be reliable enough over time, but there's no question that pretty much everything on it is built with maximum margin in mind.

Luckily for Stern, GB runs circles around The Hobbit in regards to fun...and save for the LE version, at a much lower price.

JJP #3 and Stern's next game will be interesting to see do battle. Stern will still have price advantage, but Lawlor is hard to bet against when it comes to fun.

If everyone but you misunderstands your point, I think you need to look at the clarity or validity of the point you're trying to make...

How do you want your thoughts? Scrambled.

It's not Spike's fault, but some of the recent Stern decisions are backwards moving. Relocation of the power button, head bolts, moving the service outlet, and other little things like that irk me. I hope Spike can start moving things forward in a way to offset this other stuff.

You know that your view on feel is an opinion too, right? You yourself said, "in my eyes" when talking about it.

Build quality is objective. Feel is totally subjective. Some might prefer the lighter feel, some may prefer a bit more tankiness. So if you want to point out opinions as invalid, stop using them yourself...or just be open to others having a different opinion than your own.

I've got two kids, 3 and 7, and I had to put GB on the end of the row so that they can reach. Minor annoyance, but still annoying.

I agree about the latches. Much better than traditional lock down mechs.

I'm going to look into replacing the fan. The one in there is loud.

Well a premium is still much cheaper, but GB pro compares well against TH. So does something like ST or Metallica. But even if you eliminate pros, the premiums are still much less in cost.

You do know that JJP has sent out replacements and plans on sending out more, right? Same with the left wireform.

They're absolutely should. Stern's stubbornness in regards to communication and acknowledgement of issues is really awful. They're not going to fix the GoT orbit. Just you watch.

Sounds like a vacuum on mine (which is an LE, but should be the same).

I don't even know what you're talking about. I like JJP. I've said so many times. I've said that WoZ is an all time great game. I have no idea why you, Rob, and the rest of the little Hobbit gang have such a collective boner for everything I post, but it's sad. There are like 5 or 6 of you little dorks running around thumbing up each other and thumbing down every single opinion that's not in total harmony with your Gospel of The Shire. It's borderline psychopathic.

You want to know why Pinside threads devolve into garbage? It's because of people like you who are completely unreasonable and combative. Go find some chill.

Me too. Someone else did as well, right? I thought I saw that somewhere. It's loud enough to hear from across the room when running.

Yeah, for the most part it's not noticeable during play. During quiet moments you pick it up, but it's not a big deal while playing.

Again, good thing GoT and GB are amazing games, because the little QC oversights are annoying. Luckily they're well worth the effort.

This is the last I'm going to say to you. But it fits the bill.

"Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/), also known as sociopathy (/soʊsiˈɒpəθi/), is traditionally defined as a personality disorder expressed by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited behavior."

The way you guys track around Pinside and police opinion is extremely odd. It's hive-minded and hollow. You guys let it slide when anybody dislikes anything but The Hobbit. Well guess what, some people are going to like some games more than The Hobbit. Some people like other games less. Crazy!

If you want to explain why you like something more or less than another thing, nobody should be upset by that. But you guys have gone and made it all personal. It's ridiculous. It's so one-sided. You guys stalk me, and it's gross. Just stop.

Go read through my post history and watch how often they pick at me when I'm not even talking to or about them. Rob especially can't help himself. I've even had Rob's real life friends text me to apologize for him. If it gets to that point, you know he's out of line.

I just want to talk about pinball, what I like, what I don't like, and why. This personal level stuff is so unwanted.

It really doesn't matter. I'm done talking to them. They can carry on, I won't respond anymore. I thought Rob would tire of responding to a wall, but he hasn't yet. At some point I'm sure it'll click. It goes for all of them. No more responding to that bickering and baiting.

Yeah, what's the fun in being mature?

Don't forget the $20 she gave you to pass along to him. I know you pocketed it last time.

While I'm not happy about the ghosted inserts either, we still don't know what Stern is going to do. It's a little early to panic.

The comparisons between these two games is still hard. They're just so different. Ghostbusters has more flow, a much more directed experience, and shorter ball times with short windows where can blow your score up quickly. It's more of an opportunistic game. The Hobbit is a bit more of a shooter's gallery with a very long journey. You need to get through a lot to score high, and you need to have a lot of patience.

They only real comparison between them is that they're both in production now. Gameplay wise, they're just so disparate that they're hard to compare directly. It's like comparing Twilight Zone to Attack From Mars. There's not much 1 to work with.

It's very flowly in its modes. Lots of combo shots and nearly everything returns to the flippers, aside from the left orbit, which dumps to pops. If you hit your shots, everything tends to flow from one thing to the next.

Here's the rub. There are concerns with the current Stern playfields, that's true. Thing is, this will be your only shot at getting an LE. So it's a crappy spot to be in. I have an LE and I've never been so addicted to a pinball machine, but I do have 4 inserts with ghosting on them. I don't notice during play, but it's still a disappointment. But man, the game is absolutely incredible, and I would be really missing out if I had passed on it.

Both games will be available for quite a while. TH is showing up in lots of sales postings, and they're still making more. While you won't be able to get a GBLE, premiums will be in production for a long time too, and there will be a large secondhand market simply due to how many of these games are being sold.

But whatever you do, I would decide for yourself and not base it on thumb votes, because some people are going to do that based on personal agenda, not so much what's really in your best interest.

Yeah, unless you're a super fan and REALLY want an LE, the premium is an option down the road.

Even more solid in my opinion now...Ghostbusters is a far better game than The Hobbit. It's not even close.

31 modes. 31 modes. 31 modes.

31 modes across 4 shots. Super fun!

The Hobbit is garbage wrapped in a shiny art package. I can't think of a more boring game to come out since maybe Transformers. There's no challenge, there's no actual variety (a ton of modes that are all samey is not variety), and there's nothing cool about those ridiculous pop ups and rollover buttons dominating the middle of the playfield. Terrible design.

Keith is doing what he can, but he's coding to a turd layout. Stuffing an average of 47 multiballs into a 3 ball game is proof that he's stretching.

I can't see any moderately skilled players enjoying The Hobbit long term without getting bored.

I have played The Hobbit a lot. And among the people I know that play lots of pinball, very few enjoy it. I've played it on early code, I've played it on the newest code. It's just boring. Easy shots, samey shots, annoying drops that sound like a ratchet set, and modes with questionable variety.

Yeah, the same shots do different things at different times, but they're the same old boring shots.

Modes that have you bashing on pop ups shouldn't even be counted in the mode total. YOU DO THAT NONSTOP ANYWAY.

It's a decent location machine, but just so pedestrian as a long term prospect. 45 minute games with 20 multiballs.

Man, if my 4-year old can pass a mode or two (and he can), then any adult should AT LEAST be able to pass a ladder and experience a multiball or two without too much trouble.

GB is hard, but it's really not unfair. If anything, I'm happy to find a game that has additional unpredictability in it. There's so much more tension and satisfaction for making big shots when you're playing a game that is always a second from a drain. Use your two warnings every ball, get work done during the ball saver, and be deliberate in your shots (flailing is bad!), and you'll see lots of great stuff in Ghostbusters. Yeah, some games will see you bomb out at 60 million, but that just makes the bigger games so much more satisfying.

Contrast that to games coming out far too often that make multiball extremely easy to achieve, throwaway modes, and super long ball times...Ghostbusters is a VERY welcome change of pace. The shots feel wonderful on the game, and they make the modes a thrill.

Yeah, unless you have a very dedicated operator, the build quality kind of bites you in the butt on GB.

Out of the box, my GBLE wasn't playable. Broken switches, a bent scoop, a broken opto, Scoleri's adjusted poorly, and a whole other list of issues made me put a good 10 hours into working on the game before I could actually enjoy it. But man, once I did...the game is spectacular.

I hear you, man. I can't argue with that. I ran out of patience and I'm out of the Stern NIB game as well. Still can't answer to myself why I have a Dialed In on preorder...