You won't get a more on the fence review than this but I try to say it how it is:

Art: these pins easily take the #1 and #2 spots of all time for their art package. Nothing comes close. I give a slight edge to GB for ZY's amazing hand drawn art.

Display: no question, TH. I wasn't a big fan of WOZ's display when it first came out, but something jjp did or learned made TH's display the best ever.

Theme: this could go either way. I wasn't a big fan of the hobbit movie, but I still like it and will play it in the background as I do other tasks. GB is a classic in all forms. That said, JJP did an excellent job of integrating the hobbit theme. They captured all the excitement from the movies and packed it into the pin with splendid choreography. I give TH the nod for actual theme integration.

Gameplay/Layout: EDIT - I haven't played GB so basing this on reviews and videos END EDIT -gotta give the nod to GB. Faster action, more exciting shots, etc... TH surprised me, I didn't care too much for it in the first few games, but as I learned rules and what was happening, I got sucked in.

Rules/code: this is a wash as both games are in beta. But this category will make or break both of these pins. GB has shown us that JJP can no longer rely on good looks anymore. And WOZ has shown us that Keefer is still the man. But, will Keefer and JJP dedicate that much time to hobbit? Or will they pull a kiss/avengers/stern move and abandon this to move onto pin#3. I'm afraid they may abandon this one cause it's still in beta!?! How/why? I have a feeling JJP can't wait to move past TH after all the drama it's been through. On the flip side, Dwight is programming 2 pins simultaneously, will stern relax his deadlines to give GB enough satisfactory attention? Will the modes end up being as linear as they appear? I give the nod to GB for first time 'casual' play aka short term playability. I give the nod to TH for long term 'the Keefer factor' deep gameplay.

Overall summary: there's something special going on in the hobbit package, and if Keefer and team dedicate code to it like WOZ, it will ultimately outbeat GB as far as overall complete package. That said, at this stage of the game, Dwight is on fire, stern is on fire, the unknowns have to favor GB as stern has been doing business better, faster, and more productive especially over the past 6 mos. GB gets my nod for now, but all it takes is some magic from Keefer and a big code update to sway the pendelum the other way. And if JJP puts the code effort in on hobbit like they did WOZ but in a much faster pace, it will change the game dramatically for not only TH, but JJPs #3 pin.

Disagree.

Code fixed WOZ's design and became highly desirable among many advanced players. Same with TWD. Lyman single handedly saved that game.

And TH is fun to shoot, at least the one I played. Ramps felt good, loops and spinners great, the pop ups were fun to shoot (best pop ups ever in a pin), drops aren't that desirable in any pin without good code, the list goes on.

Code makes games! Look at kiss, fun to shoot but is a complete dud. TWD, not a fan favorite layout but became a hit once Lyman finished it. But if code isn't important then I imagine hitting the left ramp 20 times like Keith Elwin did on GB PRO to get good scores is what you like, then have at it. Might as well get an earth shaker while you're at it so you have a right ramp to hit repeatedly over and over to match.

This video is amazing and give mad props to the guys that did it and the kid that plays, he's good!

This is how I remember TH playing when I played it.

The jjp displays can be a bit overwhelming and intimidating at first. I admit, I wasn't a fan one bit of the WOZ screen at first. But have you seen one of your friends or guests, or even yourselves for that matter, follow what's happening on a dmd? It takes more than a game or two to follow the choreography and concept of the pin. I was blown away by TH's display in person, they did a fantastic job all the way around with it. And it didn't take long to understand what each portion of the screen represented.

Nailed it

First off, only a handful of collectors have opened theirs, distributors and ops seem to be getting this first wave of games.

Second, here's a review for you:
I played a well setup hobbit at a distributors open house pin party. Like most reviews, it was absolutely stunning in person. My first few games were 'meh' - wide open pf, nothing to shoot, yada yada yada just like all the other reviews.

As I watched people play, I started analyzing the display and figuring out the rules. By game 4 it started clicking, and I started having fun. By game 8, I couldn't get enough. By game 10 I had a deposit in with the distributor...ok that's kind of a lie, I said I'd put money down if I can have it next week which was obviously a no. But I was ready to throw down right then and there.

Here's what I liked about the pin:
First off, sound and display are amazing. The cool lighting effects were top notch. But let's talk gameplay and layout since that's where all the hate is spawned from. I was first taken back by the layout like all the other reviews, but as I played more, I started getting an understanding of the layout. Now granted this is based off a dozen plays. But it's not a game about ramps like we're accustomed to with most sterns. But the ramps were fun to shoot. The U turn was not fun, I think some clever code can make it more intriguing. The orbits and spinners were an absolute blast. I had a couple games where I'd loop the left orbit then upper right flipper into the VUK behind the drops. Fun shot, but no reward for it left me puzzled, again clever code needed to make that a fun shot - maybe keep the D drop up then when the code registers that loop shot the W drop falls and lights a jackpot shot of some sort. Hitting the orcs were fun and felt way better than the MM trolls, NGG gophers, and XMEN NC.

The ball return had lots of action at the flippers and didn't feel floaty at all. Ramp shots were fun, orbits were a blast. Hitting drops were decent and ball returns from those shots felt good. Orcs were a blast and I enjoyed hitting them and knowing when they were gonna pop up so I can either go for them or prepare an alternate shot (orbits, drops, etc...). Being able to alternate from locking a ball to starting a mode for extra bonus was very cool but needed more code.

Cons:
Wind lance Outland inconsistency. 1 out of 5 times hitting the button to launch from the wind lance caused a drain.
Weak plunger.
CODE! Code is absolutely not acceptable after 40 mos of production. It was fabulous what they have at this beta point but code is way behind and that is really my only concern for this pin at this point.

Summary: I'm leaning towards a GB PRO. But if I'm gonna spend $6500+ on a pin (GB PREM?) I'd rather fork over the extra to get a hobbit - granted we see an extremely deep code update soon.

EDIT:
I'd like to get a review from these guys. This is how the pin looked to play for me. Not sure about the rest of you, but this setup looks FUN!

And here's my review I posted of the hobbit the day after playing it:

*quick disclaimer* I do not have a hobbit on order and have no pony in the race. I don't give a sh*t about the politics of pinball, I just love to play and have fun. That said....
Stopping in to say you hobbit owners have NOTHING to be nervous about. I played about 8-9 games last night and watched several others play. I got to meet Jack and speak with him for a good half hour after playing the game. He's Very nice and a way cool guy. I didn't know what to expect going in. The open pf and appearance of lack of shots had me thinking it was going to be a dud. But to my surprise, this game came together VERY well theme wise; the Orc pop ups were fantastic and fun to shoot, the ramp shots are satisfying, and the two loop shots felt very good to hit.
Here's a rundown of my mini review:
Cons:
- left outlane kickback: several times the kickback failed or didn't even kick or did something other than shooting the ball back into play resulting in an end of ball bonus. This happened several times even at mode starts, but more often in multiball.
- lot of code lacking; including certain mode starts having a meter to time with the ring button but didn't do anything.
- right hole with VUK. Not a very reliable shot, you more have to get lucky to get the ball in there. Perhaps some drop dead ball foam will help?
- the shooter plunger felt weak, extremely weak and loose.
- ramp shots/weak flippers? from cradle or from an inlane feed, hitting the Ramps was very reliable and satisfying. But too many flail on the fly shots resulted in 'U-turn' ramp shots. This wouldn't be so bad if there was code associated to the U-turn. Even a cool sound effect and randomizing the book pages or something would suffice.
- we got one ball stuck under a pop up orc the whole night and a ball search wouldn't free it. Plus, one of the pop up orcs wasn't sitting exactly flush on the pf. Some concern, but definitely not a deal breaker and a few adjustments could probably fix.
All in all, my cons list can, for the most part, be corrected by code so it's not all that concerning. Now for the good:
- it's a visual orgasm. The animations and choreography are over the top amazing. The use of the jjp staple display is used much nicer than WOZ. It just looks and feels right.
- the pf art and lighting is amazing.
- gameplay: I was concerned at first for the wide open pf. But the 4 Orc pop ups are beautifully coded and integrated well. They were fun to hit, and felt good. The ramp shots felt satisfying, especially the right, probably cause it was a more critical shot; but whet felt better to shoot were the two loop shots with spinners. Good stuff. The right flipper didn't feel to serve much of a purpose but once I did loop the left orbit to right flipper to the VUK behind the drops. So I'm thinking some clever code can make a shot like that a huge super mega orgasmic jackpot of some sort. Overall, I Was a bit hesitant at first with the open wide body layout, but in the end it was fun and satisfying to shoot.
- ring button: some awesome uses with the button. You can select your skill shot and get different awards or advantages by making that specific skill shot. You can also use the ring button to toggle from bypassing a locked ball shot to starting a mode instead. There was also other uses like backstabbing orcs, though I never figured out how to utilize this option.
- it was difficult at first to figure out how to light, start, shuffle modes. But once I understood that, it was very satisfying. And the digital Bilbo book above the pops is amazing! It clearly indicates what to shoot for on the mode your on. It was very cool.
- the modes themselves were simple, short, diverse, and effective. I didn't notice too many stacking possibilities other than being able to start modes while in multiball. Hopefully code will address that in some sort of fashion.
- the drops were very cool. It was tough at times to figure out what rules, if any, were associated with the drops and what advancement in the game they served but there did seem to be some rule of progression associated with it and I started seeing a pattern with them but didn't get enough time to completely figure it out. But all in all, the drops and stand ups felt good to shoot.
Final thoughts:
Smaug seemed goofy and a missed opportunity at first, but he's actually animated and used quite well. His jaw doesn't just move up and down, but slightly side to side giving him a more animated feel. He interacts with the game at times very good.
The game plays different than anything I've played, and it was quite fun. There's potential for very long ball times, but hopefully Keith can find the balance of punishing players while making game advancement smooth, fast, and satisfying.
There's a lot of possibilities for code, and I think that code will bring this good game to a lively fantastic game. Luckily, we know who's behind the console board for code - Keith. And after seeing the WOZ rules, I think code will no doubt be superb.
The game is a looker and a shooter. Fun for all levels it would appear. I would have thrown down the cash right then and there if I could have one in a week or two but obviously that's not an option.
Oh, and beast frenzy is awesome!!!!

Totally agree with this comment. It's all there, it just needs to be brought in altogether. The polish so to speak.

I read in the hobbit thread that they're making a plastic shield or something that keeps the ball on the wire form as occasionally when it gets diverted to the windlance Outlane when it's not supposed to? That was my understanding of it anyway.

My concern about the slings isn't if they don't play like normal slings, they won't, that's the point! But my concern is that they'll keep the ball away from the flippers Moreso than regular slings.

Did they release new code yet? they posted a facebook factory tour and the very beginning of the video the camera man asks a worker playing GB how he likes the new code.

IMO, this is worse than anything Kaneda has ever done. Yes, I went there.

And some people rate games to try to skew the rankings cause they don't believe someone would actually like a game that much, nor do they expect people to change their rankings or feelings over time so they come in and play mr super hero, but little do they know they're causing more harm than good.

Yup. And that's why I don't think any game is a 10; at least I have t come across a perfect 10 pin. Games like CV in no way shape or form deserves 6 stars or even 5 stars for that matter.

And fish tales a 1? Really!?

I would typically count one bank of drops as a shot, i.e. TWD drops is one shot, GOT has one shot, ACDC 3 if you count the rock stand ups; but ultimately it depends on how those drops are coded and what they bring to the table. Some pins drops or bank of stand ups are fairly meaningless while others are dependent on the table. In the hobbits case, each drop is individually controlled so if the code utilizes this feature in a magical way, they're could be lots of variety and fun built into each shot. Just like there is with acdc and sometimes having to shoot the Lightning bolt, while other times hitting a different letter, and sometimes trying to hit two at once.

The two best programmers in the biz for taking a pin to the next level and making it a shooters pin is Keefer & Lyman.

Except it took them longer than 4 months to come up with the design and concept for GB as Jody explained in a podcast. We consumers usually only see the final stages of production and not everything that goes into it from start to finish.

You sure about that bro? Give me a 30 minute lesson on how to drive a tank and I'm pretty certain I'd have one hell of a time driving it

And to add to that; yea, if you jump into a speedy automatic go kart you'll need no lessons and have a blast at the beginning. Jump into a tank without lessons and you'll be dumb founded and bored. But with the right training and over time, a tank will be a blast and crush the opposition.

Sure glad I didn't give up on FGY or LOTR after 6 plays. Those are my 2 favorite Keith games and I hated them the first 20 or so plays and now 2 of my all time favorites. Keith does not do typical cookie cutter code; and what he does offer is a thing of amazement.

Aren't most the poll results of this thread based on 6 or less plays?

I really really really want a hobbit; but price is holding me back. I'm still not sold on GB PRO yet. Looks amazing but also looks more brutal and frustrating than TWD.

Until we see GBLE gameplay (and rules), I'd be inclined to say that if I'm not after getting a GB PRO to save $; and I was dipping into premium/LE (+ mods) territory, I'd rather get TH which needs know immediate cash whore mods.

Because after you plunge the ball in hobbit you actually get to play? Vs just plunging and draining on GB? seriously, if good artwork and fast drains makes a great pinball, then JPOP has a masterpiece with magic girl, all he has to do is put it in a cabinet with a plunger - doesn't even need flippers

At this early state, I'd say hobbit long term if you plan to own it for 1-2+ years, and GB if you want fast action short term ownership (~6 mos). And based on what you posted, it sounds like hobbit is where you should go, but gb hype is misdirecting your decision.

I gotta say, those 2 pins look great next to each other. Congrats!

I'd argue that the buck in BBH is and here's why:
The crane feels better to hit than the buck, but the buck is coded so much better - its a very cool integrared feature. Once you learn the crane sequence, it becomes a pretty dismal toy.

Finally something Pimp and I agree about on SM

The rules are great. A little repetitive with the villains at times. but modes, spider multipliers, battle royal, super hero, all top notch stuff.

I'm *raises hand* this is me; not sure why you consistently preach that no one whos not invested doesnt like this game. Perhaps thats your psycological way of getting people who dont post often to post and get reamed down by the sharks. But ill bite....

I played hobbit for a day at pin party a couple mos ago that Jack attended - probably got 8-10 games in. I was surprisingly blown away. I had a great time on the machine. I'm a rules guy and I could tell people that were playing had no idea what to do except start smaug mb and I don't blame them. As I dissected what was going on with the code, and figuring out shots - I fell in love with the game. I think it's awesome and something special. But I do agree the code needs more, the trolls need to be fixed, and that wire form ramp needs to be fixed...all of which are coming and I think those 3 items will put hobbit back on the map.

There's plenty of flipper action in this pin and a lot of technical 'make you think ' shots.

When I was done, I told the distributor I'll give you $8500 right now if I can have the game next week. He couldn't make those arrangements. I've since spent the $ elsewhere (not pinball), and will look to revisit purchasing a hobbit again when my wallet seems fit. But if I had $8k to spend on either hobbit or GBLE, I'd go hobbit. Now if it were GB PREM + the extra cash, I'd go GB PREM. $8k is just too dam much for a pinball machine for me. Even the premiums are stretching the limits now too as they creep into the 7k range.

I believe the code is like that. Each ladder has its own wizard mode.

Thought you wanted to here from people that had no pony in the race. I guess I have no idea what you're saying anymore, carry on...

I agree with this. And something else a lot of pinsiders forget to realize is that Keith's rules/code is not meant so that the player sees every aspect of every mode, multiball, show, etc... Every game. His rules are designed so that each and every game is different from the next. We've seen this with lotr, woz, tspp, and now hobbit. Of course there will be that one magical game where you see 90% or more of the game, but if you set the game up easy for 45 minute games then yea, you'll have yourself a long ball Time game that may get repetitive and old after a period.

Stern games on the other hand are designed so that you play all the modes 2 or 3 times in just one game. Lyman's code however, if you notice, avoids this aspect for the most part though; coincidence? I think not. Two best programmers in the biz understand the importance of avoiding mode redundancy.

That said, it's a good thing Dwight came on board for stern to help non Lyman coded games. While GOT seems like a mode based game on the surface that may have the player playing the same modes each game; to me, the way he did the rules is not for it to be a mode based game but rather a multiball mode based game where each time you play a multiball will be different from the next one next time you hit start. Not to mention the house modes have very diversified scoring strategies that aren't seen in many other sterns except maybe Twd.

So with all that said, it'll be interesting how GB ends up fitting into the mix of its modes with Dwight behind the control board. Seems great so far.

The difference being my bank account

If anyone's ever had a toddler they know the new power button location is WONDERFUL!! Those who don't like it need to suck it up. It's a great location.

Lockbar latches give the bar an overall better solid fit and feel.

Head bolts, while slightly more of a pain, are 10X more secure and worry free of any heads coming crashing down.

My only complaint about spike is the noisy fan but that's minor and doesn't bug me enough to go out and rig a replacement.

I'm not for or against either product. Actually I like them both so I guess I'm for them both. Anyway, I hope stern sends out fixes for the pros that have faulty slimers or orbit fixes for the GOTLE owners that have suffered head wounds of head banging. Just saying....