While I agree Stern should have a color display, in fact we were hoping since at least 2013 ST (?) I believe.

But the point being, likely GB will get a color DMD, so not as good as a real live footage in Hi-Definition but somewhat OK.

Also, look at a game like TAF. Are you telling me if that pin came out today, people wouldn't be all over it? I view that as similar to GB (both have no color display native). I'm not saying GB will be as good as TAF not for me to say, but just pointing out you wouldn't tear down TAF if it was released today (as is), so while yes GB's display is lacking it's not a death blow. And in fact, I would go so far as to say that some people will buy TH simply because it has a nice display and looks nice. It could be just like Bug Bunny Birthday Bash in every other way but some people would buy it simply because it looks great and has a much nicer display than GB.

I'll go one further, people like South Park pin. I'm not sure why, but some people do, and I know it probably grabs quarters on location. Same with IJ4, but that doesn't those are great pins. But people still put money into them on location and some people honestly do love both those pins.

Not saying GB = TAF or that TH = South Park. Not even trying to get near that. But just pointing out that TAF is great without a full color movie footage and that people do put money in SP just because they like the theme and it probably sold OK (I have no idea, but the point being even a not so good pin can still be very successful).

It's far too early to speculate (maybe this time next year it will be clearer) but some people will like both, some will like one more than the other and some people won't like either.

I don't get the hate for big ol' displays with a crapload of information. I want all 4 player's scores at all times, I want to see my progress in each mode (going into status report to look up my MB progress is my least favorite thing about AC/DC!), I want big flashy graphics and a map through the game.

Wizard of Oz's display tells you a ton about what's going on. Even if you can't look at it when playing, it's 100x better than tabbing through Instant Info menus. The flashy graphics are just a bonus. If Stern's LCDs convey a DMD amount of information but have live action clips instead of crappy red video clips it's not like that makes the games any worse, but it would be a bit of a miss for me after all the LCD hype.

So I vote WOZ. Wait what's this thread about again, are we talking about GB and TH, not LCDs? 2 games with launch or pre-launch code that many people aren't very familiar with? Great, I vote GB with no basis for my opinion.

Gameplay > display. I played all the new games at TPF. Every game looked great with colorful art, bright leds, loaded rules, and in general fun to play. All had color displays except Stern. Hard to beat TH's gorgeous hd display but even colored dots on MMr looked great. GB was still my favorite to play but the display is still an eyesoar. It's a letdown because the rest of the game is amazing. To Stern's credit, GB is cheaper than other new games and will be on sale shortly after being announced.

Disagree. Unless the assets are great on the display.

I'd take great dots on a DMD over a really awkwardly edited video that keeps looping on an LCD.

I think the audio might carry more weight than the display. Just guessing here: most players probably know the callout associated with their favorite moment in a game rather than the dots/video that accompany it.

In fact the audio probably gives a better indicator of the accomplishment as most players probably aren't watching the screen when it happens.

It's the combo of both, listen to the sound on TH away from the roar or with headphone jacks. Tie in the LCD.

As much as I love both I won't buy TH because of theme and layout.

One day it will come together like a thing of ultimate beauty.

The Stern LCD is not nearly as big, centered low with taller speakers on each side! For those that don't want giant you'll love it.

Voted for GB as the vids of the pro gameplay looks great. I like having a couple machines for those who lose early on poker nights and I think this premium GB unit will work perfectly next to the Sopranos. Now we got 2 smash toys.

Put in some decent time on TH LE 348 today at Pinball Wizard:
- Great lights!
- Long ball times (too long IMO). I'm far from a great player and I could shoot it for quite some time per game. Very few dangerous shots and the outlanes are generous.
- Way too open with not many satisfying shots. Going back and forth between WOZ and TH and Hobbit just seemed so sparce with things to do. WOZ was packed, had more fun on it than I did the last time I played it. Just not enough going on in TH for my taste.
- Slow. Like, really slow. Going from Full Throttle or Mustang to TH made it feel like it was set up on a flat surface.

Definitely not a table I'm interested in owning, GB for sure at this point. I may hate GB by the time it arrives and I can play it, but I already know that I don't like TH, so it's already got that going for it.

I completely agree.

So many complaints that the layout of Woz couldn't be saved by code.

Apparently, Keith saved it. Woz is not the same game it was. I know we're talking about hobbit though.

TH already flips better than WOZ at inception. There's no guarantee, but also no reason to doubt TH will excel with improved code.

I may be in the minority but I like WOZ from the first time I played it...I'm guessing it had code 4.11 or so it was somewhat developed by then.

It was still a okay game back in the 1.XX versions, but nothing like the game it is now. I would have sold it by now if we were still playing 1.XX versions.

Sorry, that was not meant to be insulting. It was only in fun. It is actually nonomybizness but I thought I would rib ya a little. You are doing a good thing helping out the three foster kids.

display really means dick in the grand scheme of things. System 11 games are awesome and they only have alphanumerics. would it be better with a DMD or LCD? Not all that much. Gameplay and rules will still be just as good. Half of the animations on a DMD get missed and you only see it when someone else is playing. Until a month ago, I didn't know there were clowns in the multiball of tommy. I had that game for 5 years. DMD's you have to wait for the info to show up you want, and JJP's LCD's area clusterfuck of confusion. I still don't know what the hell i'm looking at, or what is what. If that's what LCD's are going to continue to be, then they can shove them up their ass. I'll stick with dmd or alphanumeric.

I've grown tired of this argument. Displays mean much more than just "dick". Your point comes down to the fact that a System 11 game got by fine with alphanumeric displays. And they did. But I just raised my head and saw the closest game to me, 4 Square. An EM from the 70s (great game). Right next to it is Game Of Thrones. GoT would be destroyed by the display of 4 Square. They don't use it as just score keeping, it is the coveyance of all the information in the game. The DMD tells me how to advance through the game, because games are MUCH more complex now. It's just stupid and shortsighted to think an older display tech is as good.

That was all carried forward by WOZ. No, it didn't need to be that big, but it is. And it always had information about the status of my game as I played. The LCD in it was revolutionary. Not for the tech or the assets, but in all the information it showed you at all times. 4 score reels just can't do that.

I know I'm not changing anyone's mind here, but it is crazy that in 2016 games don't have an LCD showing the status of everything. I'd have loved if GoT had conveyed as much status as the older WOZ did. And have you see the status counters on Tron? Pitiful, one line of the DMD broken into 3 bars.

I'd like better.

well so far what i've seen out of LCD. It has been to confusing, to the point, where you wished you were looking at a DMD again. Maybe because they are not done right. P3 uses LCD, yet it's very clear on telling you whats' going on, where you are, the score and objectives. JJP isn't so good at that yet. But it's not innovative, nor is it this huge improvement over gameplay like some seem to think it is.

I am suprised we are not hearing more buzz about TH as many have been delivered this week, I am looking forward to hearing some owner reviews.

probably because we been seeing, playing and hearing about hobbit for over 2 years now.

I agree with this part of the argument. The color display on TBL and Full Throttle are much more what I want to see on a pinball machine than the overly complex mess that is on WOZ or The Hobbit. The display should be a simple to understand scoreboard that occasionally has messages and rewarding graphics. Simple and flashy is what is needed. All that nebulous, split screen stuff JJP uses is not the right direction and takes the fun out of it for me. I have had WOZ (mostly gathering dust) in my game room for almost 2 years and I still don't know *or care* what all that crap means.

I have mentioned before that I would rather watch an NFL football game on a 9 inch black and white TV than a Soccer game on a 70 inch HDTV. Quality of display is not everything. Content matters too. I will take the dots on GB over the those on Hobbit any day.

Ok grandpa...or is it grandma?

It seems weird that you would still own WOZ after the constant whining about how terrible it is over the last two years. You should sell it and move on.

The display on WOZ is very easy to understand...I just don't understand the confusion with it. It's all very odd, like maybe there's an agenda or something?

The jjp displays can be a bit overwhelming and intimidating at first. I admit, I wasn't a fan one bit of the WOZ screen at first. But have you seen one of your friends or guests, or even yourselves for that matter, follow what's happening on a dmd? It takes more than a game or two to follow the choreography and concept of the pin. I was blown away by TH's display in person, they did a fantastic job all the way around with it. And it didn't take long to understand what each portion of the screen represented.

And we wonder why Stern is still using 24 year old display technology.

But imagine watching the same NFL football game on the 70inch HDTV!

Theme is purely subjective. But for any given theme, surely you want to see the theme represented in the best way possible?

Sure gameplay is most important. Theme is probably 2nd most important. If the screen was not important at all in capturing the theme, why have animated dots at all? Why not just use it for numbers and information?

And if the screen is important in capturing the theme, don't you want a screen that can capture the theme as accurately as possible?

If the theme was retro 90's video games, then dots might be good. But for anything else, a colour LCD is going to make a huge difference in the immersive experience.

No one can deny a colour LCD on Ghostbusters would have been freakin' awesome.

not that color displays are not nice looking, but there is a right way and wrong way to do it. P2K did color displays right. Easy to understand and used as a tool to assist you. But didn't relay on it to run the whole game. The playfield is suppose to guide you, not the display. Use it as an enhancement not a crutch. Great gameplay comes from the playfield, layout and rules. If you can't figure out what you are suppose to be doing by looking at the playfield, then the display isn't working the playfield. Too much focus on the display.

Good point. First game I owned was TZ and after about 2 weeks the display died. So I was playing for about a month without any display. And it was still a really fun game. The sounds, music and lights were more than enough to know the progress through the game. Learnt more about that game in that month than any other game I've owned since.

Having said that, when it was finally fixed, I realised how much I missed it.

Concerning this useless display debate, i can't understand how a lcd display like on woz could be a con's. Even If you spend most of the Time looking to the playfield i think it is a big advantage. Big lcd display or a standard backglass there is no match in my opinion.

Like I said, I'm not convincing anyone to change their mind here.

However, are you really making the argument that WOZ and Hobbit display too much information all the time? I find it odd that you have owned a game for years, but can't be bothered to learn how to read the display.

Again, if you couldn't be bothered to learn what is being shown currently, why would I listen to you spouting the direction the industry should go? It makes you sound intentionally uninformed.

My four and seven year old can handle the info on WOZ display. It's what your preference at the end of the day. I honestly prefer to go by the audio cues when I'm playing then glance/study the LCD when there is a break in play. Feels a totally natural progression to me.

The 4 quadrants on WOZ are really not that difficult to understand. Upper left is for castle multiball, upper right for Emerald City MB and occasionally Horse of a Different Color, lower left for haunted modes, lower right for Munchkin Land status / modes. For a game with more to do then pretty much any other pin made it does a great job at explaining mode and game status in cool and unique ways.

The quadrant layout changes at various points in the game showing awesome full screen "Extra Ball", "Replay", "Special" and mode specific animations. I find animations on WOZ to have much more impact then DMD animations.

Perhaps I am wrong in this hobby. Sure I like to play pinball games with a few friends for fun to compete about the next beer round. There is no pinball game that can't produce this kind of fun when it has short playtimes and fair rules. You just need a display for the score. But when I buy a game for home use. I want to play it alone. And I don't play it to beat my own highscore. There are tactics when I play against others that I would never use at home. Why should I play "Hells Bells" over and over again on my AC/DC when I want to just have fun? I play the other songs and want to reach the final mode. For some people everything that distracts them from the goal to get the next highscore could be taken out of the game.

Not for me! I like the flashing lights on GoT. I like loud music and callouts and I want the best show possible on my games. Because when I start a game I want to be captured by the theme and the world under the glas. When I play GoT, I don't want to beat my highscore, I want to see "Iron Throne". When I play AC/DC or Metallica I want to have the feeling that I am on a rock concert. And a LCD Monitor with high res animations, can help to deliver this kind of show. From my early youth on, pinball games were something special for me. My grandpa had a Bally Lost World in his pub. And it was way more than just a game for me. The artwork was a journey into a fantasy world. Now as an adult, my ability for fantasy is not the same as it was as a child. It is harder to be sucked into a game. The show has to be better. Other games than pinball can deliver better forms of competition but there is something about pinball games I can only describe as magic. And Keith is a magician he can bring worlds to life, he can tell stories with his games. LCD has way more potential to do this. So I think it's a very simple thing I want to say. If you want to have a game to compete with others. You need fair rules and funny toys, the theme and the show don't matter. But if you can understand what I mean with the magic I decribed above. Than LCD is the next important step. That's why this is more important for some of us than for the others.

For me theme is very very important especially to longevity, If TH was based on Blade Runner or GB's on lets say Running Man or Total Recall then they would be must haves for me, I had an AC/DC Luci and Met Pre both were fun games but didn't last long due to the fact that I'm not really into those bands, however if it had been Slayer and Motorhead I would still have them, WOZ will never be in my home due to theme, I play it on location but no desire to add it to the collection, LCD will become standard across the board but like I said before it will only add to a game that already has great gameplay but will never save a game the flips poorly, theme is the only factor that might cause one to keep a game that isn't exactly top notch player, I feel TH falls into this category, as does Kiss and several others. JMO

I'll surely a JJP buyer in the future. I want that complex rules and split screen display.

I'm just not *that* into either Woz or TH, so I'm not buying whatever just to get a nice display, I'm in this hobby for the long haul so I've been collecting for 12 years and will be for the next 20+ years I suspect so hopefully JJP will do a layout I love with a theme, maybe Toy Story or Harry Potter or who knows what maybe The Simpsons whatever.

I'm just not convinced TH is my type of pin.

I'm glad JJP is making pins and hope they survive a long time so I'm pulling for TH to do real well and let JJP secure a great theme in the future.

I like icing on my cupcakes. Cupcakes without the icing are good too, but not as good as they are with icing. Just sayin'.

What if the main ingredient in the cup cakes is shit? All the icing in the world won't help.

What if the cupcakes are made of shit??? Ok, I guess the discussion is complete.

Nailed it

Yes I do every Sunday in football season. Just saying that soccer sucks and content is king. Of course I would rather have a color display on GB. Duh. Sorry if my honest opinion offends some of you, but this is a discussion forum after all.

Nor should you. I am simply pointing out that we now have three different takes on how a color LCD on a pinball machine should be utilized. I prefer the direction that Heighway and DP have taken. As in any good debate I figured I should state my reasoning.

It is owned by a friend of mine who after playing it a few times has not bothered to bring it over to his place. His wife only lets him have a few games in their condo and this one never made the cut. Fortunately I talked to him yesterday and we are going to swap his TAF over here and the WOZ to his house. I was able to convince him that the new software is pretty cool and the game now plays a lot snappier.

It is ironic that a WOZ should get marooned at my house for so long. I wanted to love it and tried in the beginning. It seems like there are a small few who love the game and are really vocal about it. Meanwhile most people just simply don't like it and move on. It has a clunky playfield that is a turnoff for spending the time needed to learn the deep software. All I can say is that in the whole time it has been here, it not only gets the least play by me, it also gets the least play by my guests. The IJ and Volley currently on either side of it both get way more play.

It certainly should be, if you don't like a pin for theme or gameplay etc. then the display will not save it, why is this so difficult to understand. I am enjoying all the analogies mind you, I'm not a fanboy of any manufacturer by the way, make a good pin with a theme I like and I'll buy it.

I haven't heard a single, exciting review of the Hobbit yet.
Given the ridiculous amount of time it has taken to produce, why is it that there are multiple issues physically, and why is the code apparently still so shallow?
Y'all got your LCD display.
Have fun.

Amen.

This sounds just like what so many say about TSPP.

It is one of the arguments for why I want a Woz now.

TSPP is one of the best games I've ever owned in a home environment (but admittedly not as good on route.) It ain't clunky if you can make your shots.

Games like IM are the opposite. Excellent on location, quickly redundant at home.

If you feel a game is a chore to learn, stick to simple rules doing the same things over and over and knock yourself out.

I prefer deep rules with variation. It's more fun long term.

You hit the nail on the head! TSPP is easily one of my least favorite Stern games and another clunky JB/KPJ game.

Interesting, yeah not everyone is going to like it. WOZ tends to get played the most when I have guests over. Heck, even my Dad walked past ACDC Premium when I owned one and just wanted to play WOZ as the game screams "fun!". WOZ also typically beats every other pin on route and is usually either #1 or in the top 5 on Play Meter so people in general must like it. Obviously not everyone is going to to like it, I know that, and how guests like it is going to vary from owner to owner.

Personally I don't see WOZ having a clunky playfield, that's just how I think a game that costs $8k+ should look meaning loaded with toys and features that help justify the high price tag. A game with two ramps that just return to the flippers and a stationary bash toy will always play faster then a game like WOZ, TZ, TSPP, etc, no matter what. I just don't want to pay $5k-$8k for those games types of games anymore, there's already enough of them out there.

I think that Ghostbusters is one of first Stern's in a while that has features that actually back up the price tag. I've never seen so many interactive toys + features in a Stern before. The entire game feels very un-Stern and more along the lines of a game like WOZ in terms of being loaded up.

If audio carries more weight than the LCD then JJP has knocked it out of the park with TH versus anything else out there.

JJP will put together a great theme with an awesome layout, audio, artwork, LCD and great rules (a given).

Will it be Lawlor? Harry Potter?

I think the next two JJP pins will blow away the previous two in terms of total package.

Stern is coming with Star Wars and an LCD.

I think GB is just the tip of the iceberg.

Great times ahead!

Btw, I'm getting my Alien LE with a massive 27 inch monitor to match the play field. Big or small, I'll take em all over a ridiculous Dmd.

That doesn't change the fact that your opinion is in the overwhelming minority John With Woz as well.

The overwhelming majority think differently about Woz and TSPP.

Different strokes.

Sorry but I disagree on that. TSPP maybe, but not WoZ.

It's all a matter of personal opinion anyway. That is what makes pinball great. One man's clunk is another man's treasure.

Totally agree. I was playing Woz yesterday for quite a while. I admittedly had been tied up with TWD for the last year and a half.

I think Woz is much less "clunky" than TWD because its much easier and when you are making shots nothing feels "clunky".

Anyhow, its great to have options and variation.

I haven't heard a single, exciting review of the Hobbit yet.

Then you haven't been reading the threads. Your statement is just plain wrong.

I gave my review, and indicated that I was so impressed after playing it that I placed my order for one. There are plenty of other positive reviews as well. Just because people might not be as completely excited as they could be due to the pin shipping with beta code (.80) doesn't mean that people aren't excited about the pin overall.

Not a single exciting review of the Hobbit yet? Really?