Actually, I think it's cool that GB and Hobbit are owned by same party's and they like them both. Good for them.

These pins seem to be in opposite camps you like one but not the other.

Yes, there are nice ways to express your opinion like the title says.

Cheers.

I honestly like both games. But, for me, the Hobbit is the complete package.

It is basically MM on steroids. It has a major bash toy in the upper left playfield, a left and right ramp, 4 popup beast targets, 11 drop targets, 11 standup targets, two subways, two up kickers diverted onto ramps, three magnet targets, left and right orbit spinners, two shooter rods, and skill shots galore! It is arguably one of the best games I have ever played. There is also no question it is one of the most beautiful pins ever created and the use of licensing on this machine is second to none. Add to this the fact it has one of the most in depth gaming rules, and you have a great machine. The game feels like a "treasure chest", the more you play it, the more there is to discover.

I agree. Hobbits layout really sucks. The rules are confusing, does a horrible job at explaining anything. Has great video and sound clips. Great art package, and everything else is a failure.

There's a mini LCD that tells the player exactly what to shoot for (on top of callouts) during modes and how much time is remaining to do so.

There's also a brief video in attract mode that shows how to get the 5 shards to start Arkenstone modes.

If either of those two items doesn't help explain the rules nothing will. It's very straight forward.

I agree. The Hobbit is a fantastic machine. Between the mini LCD screen, the lights, and the attract mode, what to shoot for is extremely apparent.

The only real problem is that too few players have spent enough time with this game to really appreciate it.

So does MM suck then? Because, you do realize that TH is basically the same layout as MM, just much much better.

Honestly, the layout is the best part of the Hobbit -- which is saying a lot because the game rules, lighting, artwork, etc., are also stellar. It is a shooter's paradise.

Never heard that comparison before.

All the MM games I've played do not have two center ramps in back with multiple banks of drop targets, nor an upper right flipper to nothing you can't hit from the lower flippers.

I would look again.

It was very clear to me the first time I saw the Hobbit that the original game developers were starting with the layout of MM, and then trying to add to it. (Whether they succeeded in doing this is a matter of debate, but you cannot debate the fact that the two games have almost the EXACT same layout. Personally, I think they made TH much better than MM, but this is irrelevant. Both games, indeed, have almost the exact same layout with relatively minor changes. It is logically impossible to love the layout of MM, but hate the layout of the Hobbit because they are largely the exact same playfield.)

The main bash toys, Smaug and the Castle respectively, are in the EXACT same location on the playfield. One toy (Castle) has two standup targets and a drawbridge that lowers to reveal a hidden upkicker. The other (Smaug) has 5 drop targets which drop to reveal 3 hidden standup targets and a hidden upkicker. Honestly, other than one is a castle and one is a talking dragon, there is almost no difference between the two. The only real difference is the Hobbit's hidden upckicker diverts to the left ramp instead of just spitting the ball back out.

Both games have another UNhidden upkicker on the right side of the playfield in the EXACT same place. For crying out loud, they are both even named after Wizards! MM's is Merlin. Hobbit's is Radagast. The only real difference, again, is Radagast's upkicker diverts to the right ramp instead of just spitting it back out on the playfield.

MM has pop up trolls that block the two main ball paths depending on mode. The Hobbit has the same -- but it just has 4 instead of 2.

Both games have two ramps towards the back of the machine -- one on the right and one on the left. The right ramp on both machines leads to the left flipper and vice versa on both machines. Shooting the right ramp leads to a far left diverter at the far left of the playfield on both machines. Far left diverter leads to a hidden shooter rod on both machines. For crying out loud, even the pop bumpers are located in the exact same place in the upper right corner of both playfields! Far left and far right orbits surround both machines. Three standup targets are on the lower right of both machines.

Honestly, I fail to see how anyone could fail to miss this. The designers of the Hobbit clearly started with MM's layout and then made minor tweaks.

Minor Changes to Layout:
1. Added a far right flipper and a far left slingshot dedicated to bashing the main bash toy. (People act like this is a bad thing, but I find it increadibly useful. TH is MM with an additional upper right flipper and left slingshot to bash the main toy.)
2. Added two additional pop up targets to block main shots (i.e., 4 instead of 2), but made it less likely that more than one of those targets would be active at the same time. Added an additional mini game (Beast Frenzy) to the pop up targets.
3. Added a "one ring" button for the player to better control the power of the hidden far left shooter for more skill shots mid game.
4. Added two magnets on the orbit to drop the ball into a secret cave leading to a subway or into the pop bumpers.
5. Added a captive ball/standup target in the top center of the playfield.
6. Added drop targets in front of the 3 lower right standup targets, added the same to the lower left side of the playfield.
7. Changed the shooter to divert to the lower playfield at the beginning of the game and added multiple skill shots.
8. Changed the theme of the game from a medieval theme to a Tolkein movie theme. Added a number of modes and more sophisticated game code. Changed the artwork. Added an LCD sreen instead of a DMD screen. Replaced the damsel in distress toy with a different toy, a book with a second LCD screen. Added toys on the top of the pop bumpers.

End.

I grew up playing MM in the late 90s (my parents had a machine). I own a Hobbit. I fail to see how anyone refuses to recognize the blatant similarities between the two. The Hobbit is essentially MM evolved. To me, it is impossible to like the layout of MM and hate the layout of the Hobbit. They are largely the exact same (or at least entirely similar) layouts.

But Smaug isn’t a bash toy...

But I get your point about the bank right infront of Smaug to give it that feel.

Glad we are on the same page.

And, to be fair, the castle in MM is not a bash toy either. It essentially two drop targets moulded to look like a castle wall and the other a drawbridge. Smaug targets in the Hobbit are just shaped to be more conspicuous/apparent -- but there are far more Smaug targets in all.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

MM is pretty much the same layout as

AFM
MB

But hobbit? How can a 3 flipper game be like a cookie cutter fan pattern game? Thou the flipper is completely useless and really has no business being in the layout to begin with. Hobbit would have more in common with ShitTales due to the criss cross ramps, than it does with MM. But it does have the empty wide open playfield of nothing like AFM has. So there's that I guess.

Btw, MM isn't a prize winner in my book either. The layout is nothing original, and the rules are written for a 5 year old. But it does have one of the best toys in pinball and some fun call outs, but does get old fairly fast.