Panzer I think you are a solid guy with a huge passion for this hobby! Don't let myself or anyone else ruin your day, it's only pinball (it is supposed to be fun)

Thanks. Yup, that's the best way to look at it.

The inverse is also true...

LOTR and TSPP are two of my top 10 games of all time. They're perfect examples of great layouts combines with great code. But that's the thing, they have both, not just one.

He's too busy clicking thumbs up or thumbs down on posts to actually understand that. White Knight duty is hard.

I don't get the arguing over this still.

Why does anyone care if one person likes TH over GB, and who thinks one games shots and code is better then another?

Shall we argue over what tastes better, Pepsi or Coke? Because one has more sweeter of a flavor and perhaps more fizzie bubbles? You know why we'll never have a correct answer to that? Because our brains are all wired completely differently. One's brain will prefer one over another and nothing can change that. So what, Panzer decided to go with TH? Who gives a shit. He will have just as much fun with his TH as another guy with GB. Just like the guy who likes Pepsi will be just as satisfied as a guy who likes to drink Coke.

Let's dial it back a notch here guys... I have to admit, I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of a debate with PanzerFreak! That guy is very passionate about what he believes in and has facts to back it up. But even so, this debate is based on opinion. We all know the old saying for that one...

You see its not true or a fact when its your OPINION! There are people out there that dislike the layout on TSPP and LOTR just as much as you dislike the layout of TH.

I completely disagree. The shot layout *is* great. Well, maybe other than the upper flipper that doesn't have a satisfying shot to hit with it. But everything else feels great. Tons of shots are in this pin. I really don't understand the criticism of this pin in terms of saying the shot layout just isn't there. To me, it is there....in spades.

The game shoots better and is more satisfying than my GOT premium, that's for sure.

GoT premium is a definite misfire. The pro is a better game, for sure.

Panzer, you need to put down your sword and shield and let people talk. At this point you've directly argued with yourself passionately. That's...well, that's something. This thread is a "VS" thread. You can't ask for strong opinions and then get mad when people offer them. As long as they're reasoned, there's no need to jump down their throat and make up things that aren't true to support your side of the argument.

I'm not mad. I expect for people to have different opinions on games, thats normal. I lost my cool when the name calling started, there's no reason for you to do that.

Even now you are still tossing out jabs...Heck your first response to RobT is to insult his game, just wow. That isn't cool. I can sit here and say TH has more shots then WOZ depending on how shots are defined. That doesn't mean I'm making things up, that's just an opinion.

While I tend to agree with your opinion in general, the truth is there's no point in anyone making comments in a vs thread like this. In my opinion, it just gets people's blood boiling and generates hateful comments on here.
I used to care what people thought of both games but I've made up my mind after playing both so what does it matter?

There's no rational way to define shots in any way that gets you to a point where you can conclude that The Hobbit has more shots than Wizard of Oz. Don't waste your time doing it, because nobody will buy it. Just. Stop.

I'm still on the fence on either of these. I like the jjp games, and hobbit looks fun and beautiful. I like the modes too. I'm just trying to decide if it's worth the price. GB looks great, but parts of it look cheap and the dmd is dated. It looks like it has that just one more feel to it, but I don't like the linear game play. I really like a fast and crazy game with a challenge sometimes though. I'm really trying to figure out which one would hold interest longer in home. Fast and brutal, or beautiful and deeper code. My other option is to just hold off in hopes of star wars in the spring next year.

Here you go.

TH: Right orbit, right hole, between the pops, right ramp, left ramp, left hole, left orbit. 7 main shots

+11 drop targets, 9 standup targets behind drops, 4 roll over targets, 4 front targets on pop ups, 4 rear targets on pop ups, 4 targets from player controlled kickback (3 drops on right plus one time shot to upper flipper to drop targets), captive ball, mystery target, 4 player controlled skill shots from plunger (roll overs, inlanes, left drop targets, Smaug drop targets).

Theres 48 shots.

WOZ: Left orbit, shot behind flipper, right ramp, castle VUK, left orbit, crystal ball, wizard saucer, castle saucer, castle loop, mini loop on house. 10 main shots

+7 standup targets for "Rainbow", 4 ball standup targets, skill standup between pops, witch shot, drop target, 6 standups on castle mini pf, castle door, 1 player controlled skill shot to top lanes, 3 roll over targets

35 total shots

So you say I made up the comment about TH having more shots then WOZ? All depends on how you count shots. I tried to count all shots a player can aim for as well as control from the plunger / kickback. TH has more.

I don't think anybody would be disappointed with The Hobbit. It's a solid game. Aside from games that are solid top 10 games, just about anything will have another game, or several, that you can point to as an example of a better game. That doesn't make The Hobbit worse simply because there are better games. Something like BSD is a fantastic game, but the majority of people out there are going to say that MM is better. That doesn't make BSD a disappointment.

The Hobbit is a good game, but the point of this thread was to compare it directly to Ghostbusters. GB has more going for it right now. That doesn't make GB the best game ever and TH the worst game ever. Even preferring GB doesn't mean that you're putting down TH.

I like TZ more than WoZ. That doesn't mean that I hate WoZ. Heck, I like TZ more than GB at this point, but if I could only buy one of the two right now, I'd buy GB. People should be able to say those sorts of things without some pinball zealot running up to get in their face.

Just there, you're missing some shots. You missed several shots on WoZ. Either way, this isn't how people define shots in pinball. Don't try to change a standard definition to make a weak point.

I can confirm these prices, give or take a few hundreds maybe. They include sales tax (VAT). Finding one cheaper means a seller is "forgetting" VAT...
A Stern pro is approx. 2/3 of a JJP game. In other words, for the cost of three NIB Stern pros, you can buy TH + WoZ

Keith's contributions on Elvis were pretty limited. I believe he only did the wizard mode "Graceland" and the video mode. If he would have done the entire game I would have kept mine as the layout is great.

And WOF is a fantastic game even though he never got a chance to finish the rules and add the polish the game deserves. The game is so tough though that 95% of all players aren't good enough to even get to the Wizard mode which the game is lacking.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Hobbit's code will be fantastic once completed. The rules on that game will stand-up against any pin ever made. Where the game falls short for me is layout which isn't Keith's fault. It's too bad JJP didn't bring in a more talented designer from the start on Hobbit

It's a real shame that the code never got completed on Wheel of Fortune or that the layout couldn't be repurposed for another theme. It's really a fun game and totally unique. And man, that's probably the most legit "skill shot" of any plunge I can think of. It's ridiculously hard to get.

Agree. I think it's probably my favorite skill shot ever. Love that it has 2 parts which require that you hit the shot to complete the puzzle as well. Even though the game isn't complete the rules are still better than 98% of other pins. So much strategy involved and the modes are all unique and fun.

And before anybody questions it, I do think that Keith Johnson is the best programmer we have right now in pinball. He's probably the best ever.

But Lyman tho

For epic journey type games, sure.
But for fast paced action titles, Lyman's the reigning king.
LOTR is pretty faced pace but not like TWD, Met, or ACDC.
My opinion, anyway.

Got another chance to go to Timeline Arcade this weekend and play Ghostbusters again. The game was tuned up louder then any game in the place so I really could hear it and feel it. The game has a shaker motor installed. The game played awesome. I was very impressed. It was fast and in your face. I actually enjoyed the music in the game and loved all the call outs. I managed to get the mode where you drive and guide the ecto 1 by hitting the ramps. I cleared all the ramps that were lit, then lost the ball. As everyone knows this game is hard to master for sure. I found that almost everytime the game shot a ball out of the lock on the left side of the playfield, I think it was the librarian lock or something that it would shoot it back down between the flippers quicker then the Yaguv kicker in F-14. The only issue I had the 20 minutes I played was that on the right top side of the playfield, the ball jumped from one lane to the other. Luckily it never got stuck, but I could see how that could be possible. I found myself going back for more and it was the most played game at the arcade that night by me.

I think that if you do not already own one of these games, you should play them side-by-side for the best comparison. I did and my choice was obvious to me. PanzerFreak did also and made the same choice. The Hobbit has likely topped $10 million in sales so far (1K machines on backorder plus whatever was already shipped), and Ghostbusters is probably close to that in sales and backorders too. So bad-mouthing one of them to the point of claiming they are really bad is not right. JJP and Stern have had success with these machines and good for them, good for pinball, and good for those individuals that contribute efforts to make them.

Let's keep it as constructive criticism of the machines. Play them both before ordering, and make your choice.

ouch. Over here, the ratios are a lot different. You can get almost 2 pros for the price of one JJP.

Any European dealers still offering GBLE for 9.5KEUR?

Lyman and Keith are great for super-deep code that most can't figure out what the hell to do. But for casual players, Dwight is still my guy. I think he does great work.

Both are great games. Play them both before you choose. Both offer something different which is good. Let's keep pinball alive. I'm going to try to be positive about all games and companies because I love pinball.

You're in the wrong place.

I wish I had the money for both honestly. However, I'm going with TH based on my current lineup. I already have 2 fast sterns with met & acdc. I own woz, and its just different from anything else, so th makes sense for another change up. Plus, IF star wars is next year, it's another stern. I want variety, so th offers me that compared to any sterns. Again, I wish I could get both as both themes are good, and both games look beautiful and fun. It's all just personal preference, and what fits in ones collection.

Yes, shocking to see people comparing these two releases to one another.... oh wait... the thread is titled "GB vs TH" hmmm?

lol...

shocked_(resized).jpg

I'm now leaning towards TH, don't ask me why (change of pace and unique playfield, variety?) need lots of decent play before I would buy either. The good thing is plenty of time to decide and reload the pin fund.

Good point and another thing that's cool about pinball is different ways of creating code and software.

I'm so looking forward to what Keith will do with TH and can only imagine how great the code will be when completed and even before that will get better and better with each update.

Definitively buy another pin. Unless roof is leaking where pins are, why bother with roof, just buy another pin.

Nice! "You disagree with me, so please stop talking".

LOTR is a standard fan layout. And if TSPP came out today, it's reputation as a clunkfest would be cemented before the first code update was released.

LOTR is one of the best games ever made, but take away the rules and the sounds, and it would be a boring shooter. Yet that seems to be how most people want to judge Hobbit.

Very true.

pinball is doing really good right now. Just as good as the early 90's. Games have morphed into games with a lot more depth. Perfect for the home environment. We have so many options and as many manufacturers as we had in the early 90's. Lots of variety. Does suck that the prices have quadrupled over the past 4-5 years, makes it more difficult for people to buy. But with so many new options coming in, older stuff will start dropping. I really think we will see the day when b/w DMD stuff is pushed to the back burner. As long as current companies make fun stuff.

One thing to keep in mind is that Pinside is heavily biased towards super fast, super tough games. Makes some sense as there are a lot of great pinball players here. I personally don't really like that style of game as much (at least right now). Pinball is so random anyway, that for me the fast games just take it past the point of optimal fun (it's still fun of course). I am reminded of an episode of a pinball podcast where one of the hosts made a bet with a pinball newbie where the newbie got to pick the game. The newbie picked Iron Man smartly, because even though it's a tough game, the randomness of the scoring in a tough game is such that that a newbie has a better chance to beat someone with higher skill. I guess I favor games where shot making skill has a more consistent bearing on my success or failure in the game. I do get why people like faster/tougher games in league and social settings where there are a lot of good players as sitting around watching someone play for ten minutes can seem like an eternity -- but on my own, playing solo, I don't mind a long game every once and while.

Now take this to location pinball and games like the Hobbit become even more appealing for the masses in my opinion. Anyway, I guess I'm saying that while the Hobbit is definitely at a disadvantage with the more active members of pinside I believe there is a large audience for these types of games and I am glad that I have choices like this available. I just wish I could get a Hobbit for 5k . . .

Got my Hobbit last night. The excitement waiting for my GB LE just went in the toilet. Game is insane.

Add one more to the list of better features- A REAL LOUD ASS KNOCKER

Love the machine. GB LE better be good.

I doubt it's going to put up much of a fight against TH in the home. Might be a nice change of pace going back and forth though.

They are both fun games that can be enjoyed in different ways. I bet they would complement each other well.

At shows, the lines for Ghostbusters vs. The Hobbit are heavily slanted in GB's favor. At least 5 in most cases that I've seen. At home, it depends on mood entirely. If you have 45 minutes, play one game of The Hobbit. If you have 10 minutes, play two of Ghostbusters. Haha.

It's not LOTR ball times...it's more like SM with opened outlanes. I haven't opened Hobbit's up yet, but that would make it tougher. Good games last 15-20 mins, bad games can be over in less than a minute.

15-20 minute game times - I wish.

My highest score so far took about 17 minutes:

And my second highest was 19 minutes:

Sorry is the paint dry yet?
Ha I don't find much pinball watching that fun...but that is pretty brutal

Walk away frustrated with GB after 10 min, walk away smiling with TH after 45 min. Think about if that is true when you play both at the same event. ... Be truthful.

Actually, if you're in a 4 player game, you're just relieved that it's over with The Hobbit. Too long.

Man that is kind of true. My favorite pin is TWD- mostly because when you have a good game, its so fun and exciting- but most of the time its frustrating and you realize you didn't have fun unless you hit a big game. Very quick ball times.. but with TH, I feel I have fun with each game, even if they are short games- and the long games are just as fun as TWD to me right now. So many of the critics here have only played it on location.. in my house, it just gets better and better..

Dude I hate 4 player pinball on ANY machine