Please please @Lyman Sheats can you take over this title!
I'm more than happy to wait another year If I know you are in control of the coding for GB.........

Probably Dwight’s next new game.

Only a fool would buy Dwight’s next new game!

hopefully someone else is on Elivra 3 otherwise GB will never get done, which then would say Stern couldn't give a sh#t

There is a 0% chance of that happening.

As someone who pretty much only collects 80's games -- can someone please explain to me what it means to "not have code finished" -- pretend like I just un-froze from 1991. Cite a few examples of "finished" and "unfinished" so I get it. I'm not sure the difference between "ideal" and "sufficient" code here... I'm presuming Stern disagrees with you on whether it's finished, or they wouldn't sell these units when they do... Feel free to point me to another thread if you don't want to illustrate it here.

I think they are at ~59 (non-LE/Premium) titles since 2000 by now -- how many of them have "unfinished code" in your eyes? Why would that be?

thanks,
-mof

I would say that Stern has ALREADY shown that they don't care in the slightest. (It's been years...)
What gets me, is somehow Stern thinks this is a good move or is somehow saving them money. Crapping on your customers is a moronic buisness strategy for any company that wants repeat/loyal customers.

In regards to GB: the code is unfinished because there are bugs preventing advancement through certain levels(situational but there), modes will overlap(bug), scoring is unbalanced(super loops and multipliers from skillshot for example), WCWS is the same at the end of each ladder and is too easy, WARTBY is simply unfinished with scoring that makes no sense and of course the missing wizard mode and lack of use of the Library insert...it’s a hot mess.

I can’t think of another modern game so flawed with no apparent attempt to fix it.

Thanks. I had no idea this happened. I guess with 80's games where you don't have modes (until Whirlwind), you aren't thinking about levels or modes. There's some imbalanced scoring for sure on certain targets or jackpots I suppose, but that's just part of the game, and you deal with it. Lack of use of an insert sounds like an "unused" target. I suppose I can think of some "under-used" targets like the middle target in firepower, but... it "works"! Not sure I ever came across a target that was fully "unused" or an unused insert from the 80s...

1. Do any of the roughly ~100 90's DMD games have unfinished code?

2. So people buy NIBs knowing the code isn't done yet, on the hopes that it will get fixed?

3. How is the average buyer supposed to know if the code is complete or not -- sounds like they'd have to rely on the forums??? I mean does the average user even have the skill to advance through every mode?

4. Out of the 59 modern Sterns from 2000-2019, how many are considered code-incomplete?

It will never change until people start voting with their wallets. I swore off new Stern pinball games years over this issue years ago an now live a life with about 90% less frustration than before.

Besides the arguments for GB, WOF code never got complete with even just normal sounds (even when a extra ball is awarded) and the final wizard mode that has a few dedicated lighted play field inserts for it that aren't used. It's a pattern … if "they" lose interest, they drop spending time on it, even though customers still want it completed. There is some unpublished code that adds some things to WOF (that no one knows who wrote), maybe the same could happen with GB if it gets dropped any more from the interest level. This has too much attention for GB though, so eventually they will do "something" official and call it done if the owners keep speaking out about it.

So just the 2/59 games are unfinished?
-mof

Someone with money to burn should hire ernie hudson to scold Stern.

https://www.cameo.com/kirbyzook

AC/DC also - they started to complete it with the Vault edition and updated some code, added a "oi mania" mode … but there is a bug so that it wont start that already coded mode. That was a long time ago (guessing over a year now). Stern likely will some day fix that bug (and maybe others), but quite a very long time to wait for a bug fix … unfinished code.

Ok but is that "just" non-ideal or are there actual targets or inserts that aren't being used?
How would one even know a mode won't start, if it's not coded???
-mof

AC/DC is probably not the best example of a game with unfinished code. While technically the game may be incomplete, the current code is quite amazing and better than 95% of the games out there. Unlike what happened with GB, Lyman has updated the code for AC/DC many times over the years. Heck, he dropped a huge update as recently as last year. That's the thing about Lyman. You never know when he'll surprise you with a new update. The guy is a perfectionist and has an unbelievable work ethic.

In the case of AC/DC, there are actually several inserts that aren't used at all in the code. I sold mine a while back, but I'm pretty sure Lyman never did anything the cannon inserts. They just didn't mesh with his vision of the game. Does this make the game incomplete? Perhaps, but it's certainly not the same thing as an insert for a wizard mode that doesn't exist, which is the case with GB.

Ok, so 3 out of 59 games have incomplete code. Reason for mild concern, but at least its not endemic?
-mof

It was coded and advertised and put in the code update notes. There is just some sort of bug that stops it from starting (from what people were told from Stern). ACDC is a well coded game as is (in my opinion), but waiting over a year for a bug fix that prevents a mode from starting is getting ridiculous. It "seems" that Stern is concentrating on new games so that the long waits don't happen like they have for the previous games. The older games (like GB) are suffering more because of that. A few code updates go out each month - but they are for the ones that they are still selling NIB (for the most part).

Id think Stern can sell a bunch more GB’s if they vaulted it with a nice big code update.

Why are you trying so hard to downplay the fact that there are thousands of Stern games out there that are not complete?

This is something the community should be unanimous on. No one wants to buy a new game and have the manufacturer just discontinue support on it. And don’t give me that “only buy games with complete code”. If that was the case, no one should ever buy NIB releases.

And LE buyers have no choice if they want to get an LE.

The Stern code issues started with the SAM games...since you could update with a USB Flash stick instead of having to burn a rom chip, it was super easy for the user to update...and because of that, they felt more confident about shipping games with preliminary code. The first game that was noticeably “unfinished” was Spider-Man, as it was missing animation for the 3rd Sandman mode...that was clear to the user. Lyman eventually updated the game with the Sandman animation & TONS more that made the game sing. Wheel of Fortune is the most notorious one, as the game was a flop, Stern was downsizing, and the programmer (Keith) left. The game has 4 wizard mode inserts, but were never used. It’s also lacking some polish with some missing sound FX & some of the Multiball end with a 00 Points display. Had those inserts not been there, you could probably consider the game pretty finished, as it’s still very robust, creative & fun.

Anyway, this has snowballed into a combination of games needing finish/polish updates for years, but also users demanding their subjective desires to be added to code.

Gb to start filming new movie in Calgary this july 14 going into October so maybe this will kick start stern to finish the code..

How much loyalty do you think Lyman has with Stern? I would think if a company like American, JJP, or Spooky were to somehow convince him to work for them instead it would be pretty devastating to Stern.

Guessing from other comments that the next AC/DC update will contain more than the simple bug fix.

It will be worth the wait if that is the case, but really hope it's coming this year!

oh yes of course...

So are there truly only 3/59 unfinished (I hate to say only) modern Sterns?
-mof

Well, again, some claims of "unfinished" are subjective. You have people who say AC/DC is "unfinished" because the cannon inserts don't do what they expected...but that game is SOOOO deep and robust, c'mon, it's finished. The cannon inserts light up after you make a cannon shot...that counts as "use" - and when you take the rest of the context of the game into consideration...it's done. Anything else Lyman does to it is "gravy" at this point.

I'd say that anything with bugs or obvious missing things is "unfinished". Seems like GB falls into this category. WOF falls into that category. Not sure about other recent games...seems like many games like Aero, Deadpool, GOTG, Kiss got updates that people are happy with. People are complaining about Munsters, but I think that's because people don't like the rules & creative approach...not sure it's "missing" anything if you went and played one.

I'm trying "a little bit" as an 80's collector who just unthawed from a modern ice age -- to learn about unfinished code.

Thanks for the help rarehero!
-mof

I believe WWE (LE) falls into this category as well. From what I recall hearing, on the LE there are controlled gates at the top. In order to beat either a wizard, mini-wizard, or some main mode, you have to get the ball in the ring. However the code keeps the gates open during this time which creates an orbit.

I also believe this is only an issue on the LE as I think the Pro has one gate that's a passive one-way gate so the player just has to use the ramp that will get the block to the ring.

But still... pretty crazy the LE version of a game is in theory impossible to complete.

Ok, forming a conclusion here, I hope it's not too early...

IF risks are: 5% (3/59) to having incomplete code, and 2% to having a bad clearcoat (I made up that number on the spot)... 7%.

I think if I were in the market for moderns, which I am not, I would simply buy at the X-month mark to avoid ALL pain and anguish: (where X = a few months from release when known quantities are established)

1. Buy from someone who has a known good clearcoat
2. Buy a game with a consensus for having complete code
3. Buy from someone who invested mods
4. Earn a sweet discount for not driving it off the lot
5. All the mods will be made and ready by then for sure, so you can add anything
6. No damage to the cabinet from shipping (or if there is, further price discount)

The venn diagram of people with "+++disposable income" AND a serious case of "fomo" -- are the guinea pigs taking the 7% risk cause they can afford it, and then as long as you are "more cautious with your $" AND you "don't have fomo", then you just set X-month timer from release, and buy when there's a code-quality consensus, and you now KNOW where to look for damage.

Here's the truth that nobody wants to hear (just like, "Cut down on your sugars and exercise more!!!") This kind of disappointment is 100% self-induced and avoidable... Put a muzzle on your impulsive behaviors, and learn to be more mindful of when fomo and impatience get the best of you!
-mof

(Now for that guy that bought a NIB WOF and is reading this, then please disregard what I just posted... the rest of you had a warning back in 2007, and ignored it, and that's your choice!)

There are flaws in every game if you look hard enough. The bottom line is that Stern hires programmers to help with modern era games and had veterans updating DMD games in production. All of them are pretty much caught up besides Ghostbusters. That, coupled with the fact that an update has been “coming” for 29 months is the issue.

Having prepared myself for avoiding any pain on a modern purchase...

I still think it's unreal that a company releases a modern pin for $5-10K and then it's not finished (5% of the time). That pretty much means they know they have a market that buys on emotion and not reason.

-mof

I bought a NIB WOF when they were blowing them out for $2400...I knew what the code sitch was, but at that price it was worth it. Still a super fun game, I'd never discourage anyone from playing or buying one if you like how it plays.

Almost NO game is "finished" upon release, and that's why I don't buy anymore. I was a NIB guinea pig long enough. That being said, there are TONS of great Stern games that are finished and fun. You can't go wrong with a LOTR, TSPP, FGY, Tron, Spidey, AC/DC, Met, IM...all top class amazing games! If the price is right, nothing wrong with some of the less-than-loved games like AP, BDK, Elvis, T3, Sopranos, RBION, WPT, CSI, NBA, Avatar, Stones.

At the end of the day, if you avoid new releases & do a bit of digging on older games you're interested in, you should be fine.

"Are You A God?" is only listed on the rules insert *card*. There are no playfield inserts for AYAG, although it does have ball save timer settings in the menu!

There are no unused playfield inserts on GB.

So what ideas are on the table to get Stern's attention to bump this up and get this prioritized? 29 months is quite a bit of time... That's about 8 new pin releases that took priority?

-mof

anybody else notice all the WTB GB adds as of late? Interesting....

The game sold well and is out of production. They really have no reason to prioritize it.

That being said, games like Avengers and Kiss got updates when they were well out of production. IMO it's good business, as it gives buyers faith that they won't ditch games in need, even if there isn't inherent monetary gain to do so for that particular game. At the end of the day, I think it's really up to Dwight.

LIBRARIAN

400+ owners affected.

100+ active people in this thread. 100/400? That's not bad !!! I presume 100 people can work together to come up with a solution to get a plea to Stern to prioritize this.

-mof

I just got GB Prem at Golden State Pinball Festival. I bought it with both eyes open and acknowledge that the code is not finished.

However, I enjoy the theme, the lighting, the design and the gameplay as it stands. I have played enough of @jfesler 's machine to know how tough but also how much fun the game is.

To me, the only downside is that all the "buttons" are not there. Analogy: I buy a Blu-ray player (outdated, but still current) today. It has a USB port for updating/patching. When I buy the player, I want ALL the buttons to work. Not wait for a couple of years to get the fast forward to be coded. And not have to plug in a USB drive to update it every three months.

I will still enjoy my GB Prem (thanks Stern) and hope that the other buttons and the topper get more code love.

Serious question - What would prevent someone outside of Stern from writing an update? Would it not be installable for some reason?

I'd like to see Don't Cross the Streams either score-balanced or taken back out of the game, and the video mode removed from the skill shot.

It is absolutely, positively, galactically stupid to have a video mode on the skill shot that can add almost 60M to the score. It almost makes no sense to even have a pinball table surrounding the DMD with this kind of video mode.

Ghostbusters was a fun game in the earlier versions, but a nearly 60M video mode reachable via a skill shot makes it just garbage.

If written from scratch would installation be possible? Or is there a lockout mechanism that Stern has on their boards?
I would think that if it can be installed then owners should find someone up to the task and capable. Find out what it will cost and divide the expense. I know it would suck to pay for something that should’ve been included but if Stern isn’t getting it done, then what other choice is there?

The time and resources to reverse engineer it all. The hardware and software are both proprietary and closed source. Even if you could homebrew up some code that could run on Spike, you'd still have to entirely recreate the core operating system and game.

People struggle to reverse engineer early solid state games to update the code on EPROM chips, and those are relatively simple designs and programs. P-ROC allows homebrew on certain pinball architectures by replacing the original electronics.

Spike homebrew isn't happening anytime soon unless Stern facilitates it.