(Topic ID: 184598)

Getaway PIN2DMD - No*fun*ding Interest?


By Mr_Tantrum

2 years ago



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  • 98 posts
  • 32 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by russdx
  • Topic is favorited by 17 Pinsiders

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#1 2 years ago

I have a lot going on, and currently working on my PinSound project for Getaway HS2. I've never really wanted a color DMD, but I've recently seen the PIN2DMD project and it interests me some (but not really enough to buy one right now). I've also noticed that nobody has officially/completely colorized a PIN2DMD for Getaway yet. So, my proposition is this: Are there enough Getaway owners to fund my purchase of a PIN2DMD setup (I'm estimating around $300-$400 depending upon who I buy from)? In exchange I will gladly develop and make available for free the fully colorized DMD coding for the game (I'm sure this will probably be 100+ hours based upon everything I've seen).

I'm happy to always share any updates I do, and solicit opinions/advice from those who contribute. My eventual desire would be to make whatever I develop public, but I would be willing to have a brief period of exclusivity (say 90 or so days from the time the coding is completed) for those who contribute to the project, if that is what is desired by the group.

Please let me know your thoughts and if you are willing to contribute a few bucks (or heck, one lump sum) towards the project. If not, no big deal. Again, I'm not motivated enough to do this for myself right now, but if I could fully fund the purchase of a PIN2DMD by the generosity of others, then that would be enough to move me to purchase along with the needed obligation to others to actually develop the colorization.

UPDATE: Okay guys, I've been thinking about this, and I have decide we are going to proceed for sure. Please PM me with whatever level you are comfortable donating. I will keep a list, and then in a week or so I will contact everyone interested with funding instructions along with my project plan.

#2 2 years ago

I´m not sure if this post is meant ironic, but nice option to get you a pin2dmd anyways
(if your concept works)

I have to correct you on one point. PIN2DMD costs exactly half the price you think.
100$ to 200$ depending on how much you are able to do on your own.

Good Luck !

#3 2 years ago

Are there any official colorizations done yet for a williams game? Also the cost is more like 100-200, think mine was 120. Also 100+ hours is a bit much, more like 20 hours...

#4 2 years ago

Regarding cost, I was looking to purchase a unit ready to go along with registration of the software as opposed to compiling components and building myself. Here is one for example that I would be interested in acquiring from a supplier in Germany (guessing about $300 with shipping to US): https://germangamingsupplies.com/RGBPINDMD-SET-V3-ready-to-go_1

From my research, to do a fully customized colorization of entire animation library it takes closer to my time estimate. I've communicated with some who have actually done it, and some of them have spent up to a couple of months working diligently to produce a professional quality colorization. Here is an example of the quality I am referring to:

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from lucky1:

I´m not sure if this post is meant ironic, but nice option to get you a pin2dmd anyways
(if your concept works)
I have to correct you on one point. PIN2DMD costs exactly half the price you think.
100$ to 200$ depending on how much you are able to do on your own.
Good Luck !

No irony intended. I've designed and shared a lot of artwork and mods with the Getaway community here on Pinside, and most are aware of the quality of what I produce. I know there are several Getaway owners who would probably love to have a colorized DMD, but a) don't want to spend the full cost of what it takes for your competitor's product and/or b) don't have the time and/or skill to create a colorized version for themselves. I'm just offering up with a way (if there is a need/market for it) to help these fellow Getaway owners for nothing more than a modest "donation" to the project.

#6 2 years ago

Given the quality of the other graphics work I've seen you do I would be willing to contribute a little money towards this because I would like to see it done and I know you would do a good job.

#7 2 years ago

You are getting ripped off for that price I think. At $300 why not just buy a colordmd for $69 more and save the time. I bought my pin2dmd kit for I believe $120, granted it did require 15 minutes of soldering components.

Edit: not trying to be a dick just do not want to see you get ripped off on that kit.

#8 2 years ago

I'm thinking about it

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from Syco54645:

You are getting ripped off for that price I think. At $300 why not just buy a colordmd for $69 more and save the time. I bought my pin2dmd kit for I believe $120, granted it did require 15 minutes of soldering components.
Edit: not trying to be a dick just do not want to see you get ripped off on that kit.

Because it's not just about me. I don't want to buy a ColorDMD just for myself. I would rather buy a PIN2DMD, do the colorization, then share my work with others who in turn can do their own fully functional and complete PIN2DMD project for as low of a cost as possible.

It may appear my motives are purely selfish and manipulative, but this is not the case. I'm still new to the hobby (about a year), and I have learned so much from these forums, in addition to making several pinball friends. I have some technical and design skills, so I like to use them to give back as I can. If I wanted to just buy a ColorDMD, I have the money to do it, but this is really not an immediate desire of mine. However, I'm happy to take on the project if it would benefit others, but if I'm going to invest the time learning and performing the colorization process for everyone else to enjoy, all I'm asking for is a little "skin in the game" so to speak from the early adopters who will benefit.

Literally, if 30 people are willing to donate $10, or 20 $15 bucks, etc. then we are on our way. If there is no demand, then no big deal and everyone goes about their merry business. Just thought I would throw it out there to provide a way for other Getaway owners to take advantage of something they may have been wanting, but knew they either could not afford and/or spend the time on developing themselves.

#10 2 years ago

BTW - I'm not asking for any money yet. Just determining if there is interest before I embark on such a project. Also, I have every intention of carrying this through. If I fail, which I won't, then all money will be refunded. I'm not asking for hundreds of dollars. Just a few bucks each from a group of interested Getaway owners.

I would say that a minimum of $10 donation is a base level, but I will treat a $10 donor the same as a $100 donor regarding their opinions and input to the project when/if we move forward.

#12 2 years ago

Yes, this is what inspired my offer to the Getaway community. You can see what an incredible job can be done with skill and time. Instead of me buying one on my own, doing the work, then selling copies, I thought I would flip the process and see if there was anay interest.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr_Tantrum:

Yes, this is what inspired my offer to the Getaway community. You can see what an incredible job can be done with skill and time. Instead of me buying one on my own, doing the work, then selling copies, I thought I would flip the process and see if there was anay interest.

With no prior history of being able to deliver a product, the preorder model is going to be met with resistance.

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

With no prior history of being able to deliver a product, the preorder model is going to be met with resistance.

True, but if you spend any time in the Getaway owners forum, you will see that I've delivered a multitude of game specific products to the group, have sold dozens of pieces at extremely fair prices without a single dissatisfied purchase, and I have even made all of my artwork available for free download for DIYers (http://www.thezumwaltfamily.com/getawaypinball). Also, I'm about to release my PinSound nearly fully remastered/reorchestrated customization for Getaway too. I have a proven track record, so if people want to invest in that and trust me that I will deliver or refund their money, then we are good. If others are skeptical and/or don't want to contribute to the project then such is life.

I've seen just a couple of Getaway owners who were willing to spend the money on a ColorDMD. I also imagine there are several who are not willing to drop $400 in a pin for this, but might very well be will to spend up to 1/2 that. I'm just seeing if there is enough interest or not for me to invest my time creating the colorization that will benefit others.

#15 2 years ago

Maybe it would help if you would start the project and show what you are capable of, by creating a recording of the animations using pinmame and making some examples with the pin2dmd editor. It can be used and downloaded for free here https://bintray.com/sker65/pin2dmd/Editor/latest/view#files . If you find someone who already has a pin2dmd and a Getaway he can also record a complete gameplay with the glass off and triggering the events by hand using the dump function of the pin2dmd tool. That is what vbobrusev did with his Simpsons Pinball Party machine.

#16 2 years ago

What am I missing here? Both of these titles are available on ColorDMD....why are people spending all this time to recolor them for another display?

#17 2 years ago

Because colordmd cost 350$ and pin2dmd cost less than 100$ if you have strait hands. If y have 5 machines 5 colordmd will be cost almost 2k$ but pin2dmd cost 500$

#18 2 years ago

I've already shipped some units to the US and Canada and the shipping cost is around 40,- USD so, overall cost should not exceed 220,- usd.

The set mr_tantrum is referring to is an updated version, which is not bound to an external power supply anymore and works very good.

To be honest, I also suggest to try to colorize a game that has not been colorized by other companies.
This is the real advantage of pin2dmd, not being bound to a certain manufacturer supplying colored rims, or not. It's the freedom to be creative yourself, on the other hand it's also its drawback.

What vbobrusev did with TSPP was an amazing job, and i already talked to him and know what effort it really was. The 100+ hours direction is way more realistic than the 20+ hours prediction.

#19 2 years ago

I would donate to this. Mr_Tantrum (Chris) has done a LOT of outstanding work for this Getaway II community, and has all of his AWESOME artwork available for FREE on his link

He will also copy his artwork, or make custom stuff to your request on high quality material and send them to you PROMPTLY, for a EXTREMELY fair price!

This guy is very talented and skilled and knows his stuff. Great guy!

Dan

#20 2 years ago

One more thing Mr_Tantrum ... I will definitely purchase your customized pinsound work ... I can't wait and I know your work will be OUTSTANDING as usual.

Dan

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from lucky1:

Maybe it would help if you would start the project and show what you are capable of, by creating a recording of the animations using pinmame and making some examples with the pin2dmd editor. It can be used and downloaded for free here https://bintray.com/sker65/pin2dmd/Editor/latest/view#files . If you find someone who already has a pin2dmd and a Getaway he can also record a complete gameplay with the glass off and triggering the events by hand using the dump function of the pin2dmd tool. That is what vbobrusev did with his Simpsons Pinball Party machine.

Good idea. I have a couple of other priojects i vneed to finish first, but will most likely get to this soon.

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from Rappelbox:

I've already shipped some units to the US and Canada and the shipping cost is around 40,- USD so, overall cost should not exceed 220,- usd.
The set mr_tantrum is referring to is an updated version, which is not bound to an external power supply anymore and works very good.
To be honest, I also suggest to try to colorize a game that has not been colorized by other companies.
This is the real advantage of pin2dmd, not being bound to a certain manufacturer supplying colored rims, or not. It's the freedom to be creative yourself, on the other hand it's also its drawback.
What vbobrusev did with TSPP was an amazing job, and i already talked to him and know what effort it really was. The 100+ hours direction is way more realistic than the 20+ hours prediction.

First, please point me to the lower priced option, as I may be open to it.

Second, I am not going to copy the other brand, but was just using it as example.

Third, Getaway is currently my only pin, so this is the only machine I care to design for right now.

#23 2 years ago

https://germangamingsupplies.com/RGBPINDMD-SET-V3-ready-to-go_1
This is the way to go...

Customers outside Europe please contact me directly:
Info@germangamingsupplies.com

#24 2 years ago

Good news for everyone, looks like we just need enough interest to get to less than than $240.

If I haven't explained myself well, then let me attempt to again. I'm not looking for people to just give me money. I'm looking for Getaway owners who want to upgrade to a color DMD, believe the current offering, as great as it is, is too expensive for them, and don't have time and/or ability to develop their own colorization.

If I determine enough interest to get to around $240 in the thread, then in a couple of weeks when I have time to start the project I will ask for donations. If not enough have committed then I will make the determination at the right time about moving forward. Even though I will eventually make my work public, those who participate will have a brief period of exclusivity and I will solicited feedback from them.

If you think this is a dumb concept then fine, this is not for you. If you don't mind spending an additional $10-$20 (or whatever you want to give) on a color DMD up front or if that's enough to motivate you to buy one then please contribute.

#25 2 years ago

Tantrum's been tearin it up lately on getaway mods.... Hey tantrum, would you color the hitchhikers hair blond??

#26 2 years ago
Quoted from tilted81:

Tantrum's been tearin it up lately on getaway mods.... Hey tantrum, would you color the hitchhikers hair blond??

If you would consider participating in the program, then I would consider your request as having precident for the hitchhiker's hair color. For reference purposes if you should choose not to participate, what is your least favorite hair color?

#27 2 years ago

Why don't you just buy the kit yourself? Why does someone else have to pay for it?

#28 2 years ago

You can count me in it it comes with sine instructions and b.o.m.

#29 2 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Why don't you just buy the kit yourself? Why does someone else have to pay for it?

1) Are you a Getaway owner? 2) Do you not know how to read (i.e. all the other posts in this topic)? 3) if all you have are negative snarky comments to offer then go somewhere else.

I'm going to put probably 100 hours into this project for the benefit of Getaway owners. This is not just for me, but for everyone. If I'm donating that amount of time to a project that benefits the entire community, I don't see an issue with asking for interest up front from those who will benefit. Of course, I could always charge $$$ per person for my work after the fact or just keep it to myself. Just looking for a creative way to fund the hardware portion only of the project in exchange for input on the design and first rights to the project.

Moving forward everyone who contributes will have played a role in having developed PIN2DMD for the Getaway and providing it for FREE to all other owners moving forward.

FYI, any other similar responses in this thread moving forward will be ignored and go unaddressed by me (the rest of you are free to comment).

#30 2 years ago

@ Mr T. Im a getaway owner. I bought 2 of your decals and there top notch. Love them. I think you mentioned in the getaway thread that you do graphic designing for a living, NO? Maybe you should mention that. I would be interested in a personal colouration of getaway. But the thing is, it has to be on par with color dmd or better, to be worth it. I'll donate 50 bucks to your cause if it's great. because it does take time and time is money. $50÷100 hours = $.50 a hour. I want something only a handful of people would have that's what interests me.

#31 2 years ago

I definitely agree with the quality. I have zero interest in creating something that looks like 16 color CGA displays from the early 90's. My goal is to have something on par with the recent Simpsons conversion referenced earlier in this thread.

This is also a no risk proposition. While you do have to trust me, I am more than willing to refund everyone'a donation if I do not deliver the quality I am committing to. Also, if many want to participate to the point beyond the amount I am seeking to raise (just covering my hardware costs), I will proportionally refund amounts to the higher level contributors, as this is not a money making venture for me.

#32 2 years ago

Also, while I am not a professional graphic artist, I do have over 20 years experience with Photoshop, web design, both personal and professional general design and marketing as a small part of my job, and a mild case of perfectionism and OCD which lends itself well to projects like this.

#33 2 years ago

Okay guys, I've been thinking about this, and I have decide we are going to proceed for sure. Please PM me with whatever level you are comfortable donating. I will keep a list, and then in a week or so I will contact everyone interested with funding instructions along with my project plan.

#34 2 years ago

FYI, I've already had 2 contributors even though I asked them to wait until I was ready to begin the project in a week or two. I'm definitely going to move forward after just a few more early Getaway adopters, so please PM me if you are interested in signing up.

#35 2 years ago
Quoted from DB62:

I would donate to this. Mr_Tantrum (Chris) has done a LOT of outstanding work for this Getaway II community, and has all of his AWESOME artwork available for FREE on his link
He will also copy his artwork, or make custom stuff to your request on high quality material and send them to you PROMPTLY, for a EXTREMELY fair price!
This guy is very talented and skilled and knows his stuff. Great guy!
Dan

Count me in too Chris, I've got a spare 20 lying around somewhere. I like the cut of your jib. PM sent.

#36 2 years ago

I was undecided,but after reading I now want to be included in this project
PM sent

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from Rappelbox:

https://germangamingsupplies.com/RGBPINDMD-SET-V3-ready-to-go_1
This is the way to go...
Customers outside Europe please contact me directly:
Info@germangamingsupplies.com

So this would be plug-n-play for our game right?

#38 2 years ago
Quoted from MustangPaul:

So this would be plug-n-play for our game right?

Yes, mostly.

You buy the system from lucky1 (see his post above and engage as needed), activate with small donation as required, install our custom olorization that I develop and you are good to go. I will be learning with the rest of the group, and we'll have a thread to share ideas and progress. You may want to go ahead and buy yours soon, as my plan will be to release partial colonizations along the way for testing and input.

As a reminder, colorization will initially only be provided to program participants. I will eventually make public to all (we can decide as a group how long we want to keep it to ourselves), and I might possibly charge in the interim if demand is there.

#39 2 years ago

Well, as an update I've already had 3 contributors and another commitment even though I was planning on waiting to ask for money. Therefore, if you do wish join the group please PM me with your amount between $10 and $50, and I will provide payment instructions.

Looks like this is definately going to happen, and I'm excited about it.

#40 2 years ago
Quoted from DB62:

I would donate to this. Mr_Tantrum (Chris) has done a LOT of outstanding work for this Getaway II community, and has all of his AWESOME artwork available for FREE on his link
He will also copy his artwork, or make custom stuff to your request on high quality material and send them to you PROMPTLY, for a EXTREMELY fair price!
This guy is very talented and skilled and knows his stuff. Great guy!
Dan

What kind of custom stuff can he make? Custom graffics?

#41 2 years ago
Quoted from MustangPaul:

So this would be plug-n-play for our game right?

Yes, except for the Keyfile which i can not generate.

Power is directly drawn from the machine, connector is included, matching mounting holes...
Like you would replace your defective DMD with an original working one!

I made everything as convenient as possible since i don't want people to hassle with cables, adaptors etc.

Greetings,
Dom

#42 2 years ago

I now have 4 contributors, 1 other commitment, and we are well above 1/2 way there. I went ahead and ordered the PIN2DMD from Dom since it is apparent that there is enough interest. So, there is still room for others to join the project with a contribution. I want everyone to participate who wants to, so please let me know your intentions as soon as you can.

Quoted from PiperPinball:What kind of custom stuff can he make? Custom graffics?

I've done all kinds of customer graphic mods for the Getaway, and even a few other pins (http://www.thezumwaltfamily.com/getawaypinball). This is not my job, but my hobby, and I do mostly say no when asked to do one-off stuff given that I have my own projects going. However, I've been known to give in to fellow Getaway owners for non-Getaway projects on occasion (having a pretty involved one going on right now). For myself and the Getaway community, I'm currently working on a custom PinSound orchestration, and the PIN2DMD is my next big thing.

If you are asking specifically about what can be done with the DMD animations, then the answer is nothing can be done to change them or substitute different animations in their place. What can be done is a full colorization instead of the default monochromatic amber (or red in my case with the filter I have installed). Not just making everything all a different color, but multi-colored graphics and animations.

#43 2 years ago

What is the process to install the color once its ready? Do I download a file to a USB stick and install it to the PIN2DMD or how does it work?

#44 2 years ago

You copy two files to a microSD card

#45 2 years ago

Okay guys, I feel like I need to disclose something to be fair to everyone. Long story short, I was contacted by a person from Color DMD today, and they requested that I call them for a discussion. My retort was why? After some back and forth, I basically stated that I didn't think we needed to talk and that all that matters to me is that if there is legal judgement that PIN2DMD has violated copyrights (which there is not, thus far). If this were the case then I would stop my customization.

Please don't read this incorrectly. Color DMD has every right to defend their IP and Copyrights, and most of us would do the same in their position. All I am asking for is that if you are going to approach me to call you, then before doing so I want to know on what legitimate grounds, or I really don't see the point of having a conversation.

ColorDMD obviously has a great product, and has added significant value to the pinball community. However, if there is a legitimate DIY/crowd sourced option that achieves a similar result without copyright violation, then I have no issue moving forward with it. Even if my intent is to not distribute hardware, only do a single pin, and even not sell but give away my color renderings, such intent would be irrelevant if copyrights have been shown to be violated.

So, it comes to this. First of all, please do not disparage or post any negative comments about ColorDMD as there are no positive outcomes to doing so (you can, however, say anything bad about me you like). The back and forth between us was cordial enough, and I have respect and appreciation for what they do. I also encourage anyone who appreciates their offerings to buy from them, as they have a great product that is backed by an experienced supportive company.

Even so, I am moving forward with my homebrew PIN2DMD colorization given there are currently no legal grounds not to do so. However, now knowing this information, if you are not comfortable moving forward with me on the project them PM me and I will refund your donation. If you are still good to go, then we will move forward as planned. Also, there is still room for a few more contributors, so please PM me if you are interested.

#46 2 years ago

I started pin2dmd as a color DMD display for my virtual pinball machine and shortly after Steve who lives near to me had the idea of using it also for real pinball machines and to colorize his go-dmd clock project. I also had a longer conversation with Randy when he found out about pin2dmd. I totally respect his work and understand him trying to protect his IP and the profit he makes with it, but that does´t mean that every technology bringing color into the world of pinball displays is automatically covered by his patent.

For example his patent clearly ONLY covers LCD displays in claim 6 and we use RGB LED. We also don´t tag frames, we identify them by a checksum which is btw common knowledge when processing data. We don´t use higher resolution etc etc
A patent can only be filed for a very specific solution and never about something general. What he tries to do is similar to saying the a electrical engine infringes the patent of a combustion engine because they both move a car.

He also contacted US dealers who wanted to sell hardware kits. You can use the hardware for pin2dmd but also for go-dmd or even your very own DIY project. That definitely can´t infringe his patent.

One thing is for sure that the process of colorizing a pinball scene is definitely not covered by his patent. However the scene itself is copyrighted, but as long as you only do it for the fun of it there should be no problem.

Speaking about copyright. Even though ColorDMD is claiming that they don´t store copyrighted material in their colorization files, they still advertise with copyrighted scenes on their website and videos to sell their product which in my opinion is a copyright violation but I´m sure they have the approval for that.

For everybody who is interested in the patent
http://www.google.com/patents/US8773452

#47 2 years ago

fyi ... ColorDMD is approved to utilize the WMS frames (which are copyrighted) and colorized them, so that was something we had done with them a long time ago ... there are certainly no issues with original designs to overlay existing games (which we like), as well as personal creations. It's the distribution of the wms frames that we have to be concerned as WMS has been involved in this topic for colordmd and has made it very clear to us that this content is something that they (and we as their licensee) must not be distributed (free or otherwise) ... alway open to great ideas from the community, but that was the direction we had gotten when we did the agreement with the colordmd guys.

#48 2 years ago

Great project.
I don't even own a Getaway but will be pitching in anyway.
PM sent.

#49 2 years ago

I'm glad there is respect for the contribution and investment ColorDMD has made through its invention and support of frame-by-frame colorization for pinball displays. However Joerg (Lucky1) continues to publicly misrepresent the ColorDMD patents (there are two!) and our position.

Quoted from lucky1:

For example his patent clearly ONLY covers LCD displays in claim 6 and we use RGB LED. We also don´t tag frames, we identify them
by a checksum which is btw common knowledge when processing data. We don´t use higher resolution etc etc

Not so. The independent claim (which stands alone) makes no mention of LCD or high-resolution displays. The dependent claims are fall-back claims which only serve to broaden and strengthen the independent claim. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how patent claims are defined. Checksums and hash tags are "equivalent" within the scope of this invention (see doctrine of equivalents).

Quoted from lucky1:

that does´t mean that every technology bringing color into the world of pinball displays is automatically covered by his patent

Of course not. There are many ways to color a pinball display that would not infringe. However, you've chosen to include a direct implementation of the patent which creates problems.

To date, neither I or ColorDMD have taken legal action against anyone. (Not a single C&D.) Frankly I hope it stays that way (lawyers are expensive), but it's becoming more and more difficult to stand by and watch the intentional misuse and distribution of our IP by the Pin2DMD project founders and suppliers. I tried to discuss this with the Pin2DMD a year ago and was rebuffed with erroneous claims similar to those above.

It's interesting to note that during the last two years, Joerg, Stefan, and Dom, have collectively worked to develop knock-offs of the PinDMD, Run-DMD clock, ColorDMD, and now Pinsound projects. It's truly disappointing. I can only guess at their motivation, but can assure you that this has been disheartening to the original project founders, and only serves to kill off true innovation and weaken our ability to support the community.

Please support the innovators working to push the boundaries of the hobby! The personal investment required to develop and support the community is enormous and your returned support is truly appreciated!

10
#50 2 years ago
Quoted from lucky1:

Speaking about copyright. Even though ColorDMD is claiming that they don´t store copyrighted material in their colorization files, they still advertise with copyrighted scenes on their website and videos to sell their product which in my opinion is a copyright violation but I´m sure they have the approval for that.

I'm not sure what you're implying with this comment but ColorDMD sought PPS, WMS, and Stern approval before engaging in colorization of any of their games.

I think you underestimate the effort and investment to make sure this was all above board and something we could share with the community. A key feature of the ColorDMD invention -- preservation of original manufacturer IP -- was a factor in securing approval.

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