(Topic ID: 91537)

Getaway failure involves all lights, solenoids nut not DMD or audio.


By Kazak

6 years ago



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  • 69 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by steve1515
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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There are 69 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 6 years ago

No backboard lights, playfield lights, solenoids. DMD and audio OK. Running test reveals nothing. Fuses all seem OK. Where to from here? Any ideas welcome. In the past I have replaced Getaway's bridge rectrifier 2 and done flipper rebuilds and added mods to TAF, STTNG and Getaway HSII, but am still a bit fresh so please keep things as simple as possible for a simple guy like me.
Thanks. Look forward to reading from you.
Sincerely,
KAZAK

#2 6 years ago
Quoted from Kazak:

Fuses all seem OK.

Gotta start somewhere. What's happening with your driver board LED status lamps?
Kazak, what exactly do you mean by the fuses "seem ok"...did you take any voltage measurements at the fuses? Start with a DMM if you have one. Do you know how to measure AC and DC voltages. Check each fuse of the driver board for voltages. The best way to do this would be to clip the negative lead of the meter to ground and check each fuse at both sides of the fuse clips (helps to rule out fuse and fuse clip problems). Then take measurements at the test points on the board. Taking these first measurements will help us to establish what voltages are where.

424px-WPC_Power_Summary.jpg

#3 6 years ago

PS... lights all flash brightly for a few milliseconds when I turn the machine off, so I don't think it's a fuse... but I'm just guessing. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Also the D19,20 and 21 lights all seem to be acting normally.

#4 6 years ago

Wayout, thanks for your prompt response. I have buzzed out fuses for continuity and they are OK. Tomorrow (it's getting late here now) I will try to do the measurements you suggest. Thanks again. Will report in when I have done more work.

1 week later
#5 6 years ago

Thank you wayout440. Here is an updated diagnosis.
Symptoms: all solenoids, table lights and backboard lights not working. DMD is OK as is test function on startup (except for Missing Balls) and CPU LEDs are responding normally.
Results for testing voltage across fuses reveals f115 with 0v. All other fuse points show voltage. Line filter fuse is also OK. Feel I'm getting closer and appreciate any help proferred. Thanks.

#6 6 years ago

Additional info: five boings on startup. Manual suggests an audio problem with u14 but I have hade this noise before without this being the case.
If it helps the voltages across fuses are as follows:
F106 - F110 - 8.17v
F111 - 9.4v
F112 - 28.7v
F113 - 5.57v
F114 - 8.74v
F115 - 0v
F116 - 7.72v
Thanks again

#7 6 years ago

Huh. Sure you are measuring correct? These fuse values really low. These are also AC voltages (helps if you write VAC at the end of your measurement instead of just V, to keep things straight)

For example, F112 should be around 51.4 VAC. That's your high power solenoids raw AC before rectify & conditioning. Most of the others are not right either.

#8 6 years ago

Thanks wayout440. Have just rechecked and those are definately the findings. The F115 at 0VAC concerned me at first but now the loss of power to F112 and all the others? Where to from here? Really appreciate your patience and help.

#9 6 years ago

Check the voltages on the transformer outputs to see if they are correct. Post the results.

#10 6 years ago

Steve1515, could you please explain how to do this for a newbie?

#11 6 years ago

I dont have the schematic with me right now, but looking at the picture wayout440 posted above you can see on the left side that the transformer has the following outputs (hard to see, but I think I'm close): 6.3VAC, 61.4VAC, 18VAC, 13.3VAC, 9VAC, and 9.6VAC. (I believe that the transformer also has the output wires labeled on it.)

So you would turn on the game to get power to the transformer and then put your meter on Volts AC. Measure each of the transformer outputs to see that you get the correct voltages. I can't look right now, but I think the wires from each of the transformer outputs go to a molex connector that you can use as a good place to check the voltages.

Let me know if you need more info.

#12 6 years ago

In addition to my previous post...

You could also check the voltages at the driver board. For example, you should have 6.3VAC on J115 pins 3 and 12.

#13 6 years ago

with kind regards to your last post steve1515, how do I check the voltages at the driver board?

#14 6 years ago

Further to steve1515: I'm not sure after the fuse voltage check I did. How do I get the next possibly relevant info?

#15 6 years ago

If you look at the picture posted above, you can see that the 6.3VAC transformer output (That's the coil looking part... It's a transformer winding symbol) goes to the J115 plug on the driver board in the back box. It looks like J115 is a 12-pin plug and one side of the transformer winding goes to pins 2 though 6 and the other side of the transformer winding goes to pins 7, 8, & 10-12. Pin 1 is ground. For this you would set your meter to read Volts AC and put one probe on one side of the winding and the other probe on the other side. So you might put the probes on pin 2 and 7 or 3 and 10. Either way, you should have 6.3VAC like shown in the picture.

Repeat for the other windings. The next one would be the 61.4VAC winding. That goes to J102 pins 8-9 and 5-6. So you'd put your meter on J102 pin 8 and pin 5 for example to read 61.4VAC.

I hope that's what you were asking? If not, I'll try to clear it up some more.

#16 6 years ago
Quoted from Kazak:

Further to steve1515: I'm not sure after the fuse voltage check I did. How do I get the next possibly relevant info?

I'm trying to see if somehow the voltages are dropping at the connectors. If you test at the board and things don't look good, you then try measuring closer to the transformer. Hopefully this will get you closer to where the problem is. So for example, if you were to unplug the board and just measure the transformer directly, then you know the problem must be the transformer.

In that is the case, then I would verify that your meter is actually set to read AC and not DC. Next, I would check the voltage input to the transformer. For me in the US it would be 120VAC, for you in Australia, I think it's 240VAC.

You could also do a quick check at your wall plug to make sure you are getting 240VAC. If not, then you can ignore the pinball machine as it's probably fine.

#17 6 years ago

Steve1515 - It probably is what I need to know but it's now 5.30am and I am about to pass out. Thank you. Will be in touch when I revive.

#18 6 years ago

Steve1515, I haven't got round to checking the points on 115, but...
Wall plug is 240v and is OK. My measurements taken accross fuses are with AC. Is my transformer goofy?
I fixed a loose diode on the Mamusha light. It's Ok now, but now sometimes the lights are OK, and I think I fixed it a couple of times with a Fonzie hit. It's still intermittent and I havent figured the problem. I hate intermittent faults! Will unplug and replug the board tomorrow, but if this information gives you any ideas, please share them with me. Like I say, I will test the points on 115 tomorrow. Thanks.

#19 6 years ago

Steve1515, sorry, posted my TAF info on wrong forum topic. I got confused. Please ignore last post.

2 weeks later
#20 6 years ago

Took the board out and then put it back and the machine came back to life, bar some switches needing resetting, which I was going to do after a five minute break. I assumed there just must have been a loose connector somewhere.
BUT...
three minutes later BANG and C11 has exploded. Any thoughts with regards to this new info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

#21 6 years ago

Original issue was likely a bad ribbon cable between the CPU and driver board. This has the commands for the solenoids, gi and controlled lamps.

#22 6 years ago

Thanks kbliznick. Anyone know why C11 might blow up?

#23 6 years ago

Don't have a schematic handy. Is c11 for the coil circuit?

#24 6 years ago

Not sure what c11 is for.

#25 6 years ago

On the power driver board, C11 is the filter/smoothing cap for the output of the 20VDC bridge (flasher power).

So, the first thing I would check is fuse F111. Make sure it's the correct Amp rating. I'm going to guess the cap shorted internally and the fuse didn't blow, so you probably have a fuse that's bigger than it's supposed to be.

Also, since there are multiple problems here, I would say to do the following and post back with your results before doing anything else...

1.) Turn Power Off

2.) Check ALL fuses to make sure that they are good and also that they are the correct value. Post Results.

3.) Unplug J115, J102, J101, J112 from the power driver board, J605 from the DMD controller board, and J4 from the sound board. (Keep track of where each goes so you can plug them back in later.)

4.) Be careful with this step as there will be voltage on the plugs... Turn on machine and measure AC Volts across the following pins of those disconnected cables and tell us what you get... (Note, the machine will appear dead, but the transformer should have power. We want to check the transformer outputs in this test.)
J102: Pin 5 & 8 (51.4 VAC)
J102: Pin 2 & 4 (16 VAC)
J101: Pin 5 & 6 (13.3 VAC)
J101: Pin 1 & 2 (9 VAC)
J112: Pin 3 & 5 (9.8 VAC)
J605: Pin 1 & 2 (80 VAC)
J605: Pin 3 & 5 (100 VAC)
J4: Pin 1 & 4 (36 VAC)
J4: Pin 4 & 6 (18 VAC)
J4: Pin 1 & 6 (18 VAC)

5.) Post the results and we'll see if we can figure out what's wrong.

#26 6 years ago

Thanks Steve1515. Are you saying to do this before replacing the exploded capacitor?

#27 6 years ago

Thanks Steve1515. Are you saying to do this voltage test before replacing the exploded capacitor? By the way, fuses are all correct rating and working.

#28 6 years ago

You can do it before you replace the cap because you aren't plugging the connectors into the board yet for this test. We are trying to isolate the problem.

Another test to do before removing the cap would be to check if it's shorted. Then you can go ahead and replace the cap with a new one.

#29 6 years ago

steve1515, I have performed procedure as instructed. No voltage at any of those test points. Did I mention that when C11 blew it sent shit flying out the top all over the room? Where to from here?

#30 6 years ago

If you switched on the game with those cables disconnected, then the transformer should still output the correct voltages. Are you measuring on the board or the cables that you disconnected? You should measure the on the disconnected cables with the transformer powered?

If you still get nothing, then I'll look at my schematics later to see where to check next. Please keep use updated.

#31 6 years ago

Sorry bout that. Checked the cables this time> Voltages are:
J102: Pin 5 & 8 (51.4 VAC) actually 56 VAC
J102: Pin 2 & 4 (16 VAC) actually 17.3 VAC
J101: Pin 5 & 6 (13.3 VAC) actually 14.7 VAC
J101: Pin 1 & 2 (9 VAC) actually 9.8 VAC
J112: Pin 3 & 5 (9.8 VAC) actually 3 VAC
J605: Pin 1 & 2 (80 VAC) actually 87 VAC
J605: Pin 3 & 5 (100 VAC) actually 110 VAC
J4: Pin 1 & 4 (36 VAC) - not sure what you mean J4 on audio board?
J4: Pin 4 & 6 (18 VAC)
J4: Pin 1 & 6 (18 VAC)

Thanks

#32 6 years ago

On my J112, 3 and 5 are bridged.

#33 6 years ago

J112 pins 1 and 3 give 12.5 VAC, so all seem to be OK but a bit high, yes?

#34 6 years ago

Looking at the schematic on page 3 here: http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1000/Williams_1992_The_Getaway_High_Speed_II_WPC_Schematics_Revised_May_17_1993_.pdf

It looks like it's a little different than the one I was looking at yesterday.
So, that J4 stuff was wrong. It should be J501 on the sound board...
J501: Pin 1 & 5 (18 VAC)
J501: Pin 4 & 5 (18 VAC)
J501: Pin 1 & 4 (36 VAC)

As for J112, I'm not sure if the schematic is wrong here as well, but I'd say you're probably good on the voltages.
If J112 pins 3 and 5 are shorted together, you should get zero volts not 3 VAC, so I'm not sure about that, but I think your good.

So, check the J501 stuff and post back. If those voltages look good, then I'd say your transformer is fine and we can move on to the power driver board.

#35 6 years ago

On J501, Pin 1 & 2 Bridged. No pin 3. Pin 4 and 5 Bridged. Pin 6 & 7 Bridged. Pin1 and 4 (0r 5) reads 40 VAC. Pin 1 and 6 reads 20 VAC.

#36 6 years ago

Can you post a picture of the J501 and J112 plugs showing where the wires go and are bridged? I just want to make sure I'm telling you the correct pins to check.

J501 should have 3 wires going to it from the transformer also.

#37 6 years ago

DSC_1054.JPGDSC_1051.JPG

Transformer connects to 1, 4 and 6 on J501 (not shown in photo).

#38 6 years ago

Hmm... Was the game working previously? It's quite possible the schematics are incorrect. Williams schematics are known to have errors.

So, if it was working previously we can assume that the wiring is correct since that didn't change.

On the connector that was plugged into J501, check that you have 18VAC between pins 4 and 6. I believe that you have correctly checked all of the other pins.

If that all checks out, then the next step is to replace that C11 cap that blew up. Once that's done you can plug the transformer connectors back into the power driver board (without connecting any of the other boards so we don't do any extra damage just in case the power driver board is bad). You can then use the test points on that board to test the DC voltages to see if they are correct.

I would probably recommend doing this one by one in case anything is wrong you can find the problem faster.

So, for example, you could first connect only J102 and turn on the machine. If nothing starts smoking, probe for DC volts on Test Point 6 (TP6). You should have 50VDC although it could be as high as 75VDC that I've seen on mine. That's normal. While you have that test going also probe TP7 for 20VDC (should be close to 20VDC for this one) since that's also powered from J102.

If that is ok, then you can connect J101 and and check for the following:
TP8 = 18VDC
TP3 = 12VDC
TP2 = 5VDC

If those are fine, then connect J112 and check that TP1 = 12VDC. This is unregulated so it could be higher. I'm not sure on exactly what, but it might be 20VDC when you measure it.

J115 doesn't have test points and that is VAC for the GI lights, so let's skip that for now.

Let us know what you find. Hopefully we are getting close to the problem.

#39 6 years ago

Thanks, steve1515. Cap is on order. Will let you know more in a few days

1 week later
#40 6 years ago

Steve1515, Just received and installed cap and tested as you described. All tests OK. Whereto from here?

#41 6 years ago

Ok, so now, that you have checked the power driver board's test points, it should be good.

Check, a few more things... Measure the AC Volts between J120 Pins 7, 8, 9, 10 & 11 to ground. Each pin to ground should be 6.3VAC.

Next using DC Volts, measure the following to GROUND...
J109, Pins 7 and 5 (Should be 50VDC [Might be up to 75VDC])
J107, Pins 1, 2 & 3 (Should be 50VDC [Might be up to 75VDC])
J107, Pins 5 & 6 (Should be 20VDC)
J114, Pins 1 & 2 (Should be 12VDC)
J114, Pins 3 & 4 (Should be 5VDC)
J118, Pin 4 (Should be 5VDC)

Post your actual readings.

If that all checks out you can turn off the game and plug in the rest of the connectors to see if the game works. Let us know what you see.

#42 6 years ago

I just plugged everything in and turned it on for a few seconds. No playfield or backbox lights. DMD, Audio and test buttons OK, but I turned it off within 10 seconds so as not to blow anything. I think tomorrow I will remove the board and test all transistors. This is from the Williams Repair Guide:

Exploding +20 volt C11 Capacitor (or C10 on WPC95).
There are cases when the +20 volt capacitor (Driver board C11 on WPC-S and prior, C10 on WPC-95) can just explode. This happens when a shorted flipper coil diode or shorted transistor on the Fliptronics board causes the 70 volt coil power to feedback into the 20 volt flashlamp circuitry. Because of reverse voltage, this blows the 20 volt capacitor. Also installing one of the ribbon cable connectors in the backbox on the header pins (top row of header
pins to bottom row of housing) can do the same thing. And lastly, if connector J124 is mistakenly plugged into the driver board connector J128 (they are keyed alike!), this can cause capacitor C11 to explode.
First check the ribbon cable header pins to make sure they are attached correctly. Then check the flippers. If when the flippers are activated, one of the flashlamps dimly lights, there may be a bad flipper transistor on the Fliptronics board.
There is a preventive measure which can be taken for this. Install a blocking diode on the driver board ceramic 10 watt resistor R224 (or R9 on WPC-95). To do this on a WPC-S or earlier driver board, first remove the lower leg of resistor resistor R224 (the leg just above TP7). Connect the anode (nonbanded end) of a 1N4004 (or 1N4007) diode to the resistor’s leg. Then solder the cathode (banded side) of the diode back into the driver board (where
one leg of R224 was removed). This will prevent the problem.

It doesn't help me much, as a novice. Any thoughts?

#43 6 years ago

I'd say test the transistors for shorts like you are going to do and you might also want to check for diode shorts at the flipper coils if you don't find any bad transistors. Unfortunately, I think to check the diodes, you'll have to solderer one side of them. I'm not sure how to check them in circuit.

#44 6 years ago

J120 has only 1,2 7 and 8 connected.
No voltage readings. I'm testing the lead unplugged in against a known cabinet ground. Is that right?

J109 connector only has pin only has Pin7 connected.

J107 has Pins 1,2,3 and 6 (no Pin 5).

I'm not measuring voltages. Am I doing this right?

Confused.

#45 6 years ago

Ok ... chiming in here ... before you go take stuff apart ....

1) 99.99% chance the "nothing" works issue is simply a bad ribbon cable between the cpu and power board.

2) 99.99% chance C11 doing the "kablooey" is a simple misconnection of the plugs center-top of the power board.

On games that have insert board flashlamps (or other non-playfield devices that run off 20vdc, like mars lamps) it's VERY EASY to accidentally plug that plug onto the wrong header.

When you do this, +50 goes into the +20 circuit and C11 blows.

Replace C11, replace the ribbon cable, double check ALL the connectors, and I bet your game works fine.

#46 6 years ago

When doing my last tests I only had j101, j102, and j112 connected
Was that right? Should I plugging power back in ti the Dot Matrix and other boards to do these tests? I may still sound stupid but it keeps making more sense as we go. Coninued gratefulness.

#47 6 years ago

Can I test a ribbon cable (suspect 113 is my best guess)?

#48 6 years ago

I probably should have been a little more clear in my last post...

Plug in J115, J102, J101, and J112 to the power driver board. Now, with J120, J109, J107, J104, J114, and J118 unplugged, turn on the game and measure the voltages on the pins of the power driver board. We are trying to determine if the power driver board is delivering the correct voltages before going on. If the voltages are correct, then we can plug in some more things as the driver board is probably ok.

Also, litz has some good points. If all of the voltages check out now that you've replaced the C11 cap, then maybe it was just that the ribbon cable was bad.

Do you have another ribbon cable that you can try?

#49 6 years ago
Quoted from Kazak:

Can I test a ribbon cable (suspect 113 is my best guess)?

You might be able to check continuity between each pin, but it's going to be much easier to get a known working one from another game or a new one to test with.

#50 6 years ago

J120 measures nothing Nothin j109 has only pin 1 connected. Ak I on the right track? I'll keep gonig

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