Sure, I'll admit it needs more work than let's say...a GOT pro, or a Met pro, but this is a premium and premiums usually have extra stuff.

How many GOT LE/premiums needed some work on that orbit?
Or Met's Newton block fix/Snake jaw?
TWD? Yup.
XMLE? Definitely!

Seems like most premium/LE's have needed some tweaking all the way back to AC/DC's intermittent cannon load.
Oh wait, let's not forget Transformers premium/LE needed some extra work too.

Heck even my fresh-out-of-the-box LOTR LE needed a Balrog switch fix, beefier ring fuse, PoTD eject plastic, wireform tweaks a plenty; I'm sure I'm still forgetting some others.

I won't even mention all the fixes to the Bally/Williams games people love so much.

The point is, as long as you take the time to make a game play as best as you THINK it can play and STILL manage to somehow hate it afterwards, then you have some ground to stand on.
Otherwise you might as well be playing a routed un-leveled-one-flippered Shrek every time you press the start button...

all pins listed here are great, and its still unfair to compare with GB, which is not with final code
lets admit GB needs some tweaks to play perfectly, but nothing really important as i have two lefts hands and i've succeed to do all should be done...

Dwight just show us is still on the code, than its the "only" risk you'll take
all others pins are now complete, and for sure they are goods ones

than hard to decide yourself

I agree with Rarehero's comments (thus the thumbs up). Much of the love comes from the theme despite the innate flaws.

I will say that GB has a lot going for it in much of the playfield design like the ramp and lock mech. It also has a lot of stuff that is good like the captive balls, ecto goggles, scoops, that hopefully will get improved code to make full use of them.

However, the design was not tested and tweaked enough to get rid of the complete unfairness to some of it. The most maddening thing is the SDTM I frequently get from the Gozer lane out of the drops. Coupled with the flipper gap, that's complete BS. Destroys all the good for me and makes this one a no.

All the other pins the OP named in the first post are much better games.

Flipper gap blows! They messed up on the CAD drawing and made the gap bigger than Trudeau designed. I'm going with Carrot flippers soon.

Clay Harrel had the carrot flippers on his game in his mega pinball collection and everyone said it made the game play fair and the way it was designed to be. They said get the Carrots, but don't add the center post as it would make the game too easy.

How about getting the center post, but not getting the carrots?

It seems like either one of those would be a good way to go.

I thought the whole point of pinball machine was to drain the ball, we can agree if a pinball machine never drained it would be obnoxious, so maybe GB is the ultimate pinball machine.

Well, if true, proves the point that Stern doesn't test these pins for playability.

But of course, it's up to everyone to decide if they like the product or not. The original post was comparing GB to several other Sterns. IMO, which every one is entitled to their own, is that GB is not better.

I'd love it if I were an operator and didn't have to play it, just empty the cash box!

You guys are hilarious.
Carrot flippers?
C'Mon man...
If the mighty CFH is putting them in, what's next? 3 inchers on Sing Along?

This JT excessive gap/droop nonsense is just sad. J-Pop also does it; nobody complains.
Plenty of 70's and 80's games have it.
Are they cheap too?
No!
They're literally MADE to take your money.

Try moving the flippers up one imaginary PF dot more and see how GB plays, you might be surprised at what a tiny little adjustment can do.

GB gives way more side drains anyway.

TWD premium over TWD pro every single day. Not even close to me.

There are plenty of examples of the pro version being the way to go on various Sterns. TWD isn't one of them IMO.

I have been in the pinball hobby since the 90's. I have owned SM, Tron, LOTR...I currently own AC/DC Premium, METLE, and GB Pro. It's all a matter of opinion.
I LOVE the original ghostbusters movie so that might have an effect, but I seriously believe that GB is in a battle for the best Stern ever. If it is set up right and the pitch not too high and original rubbers as intended it is just incredible.
The layout is as original as you can get and as far as people saying it is linear that is Not true, because you can choose if you would like to start modes at the left scoop, the main ramp, or the right loop. The only linear portion would be the modes themselves in each of the three options.
If you like the movies the quotes and the modes are just spectacular.
Not to take away from any of the other games as LOTR, SM, and Tron are great in their own right. Your feelings change a bit after you have owned them. I owned LOTR about nine or ten years...
In general, ALL awesome games and you cannot go wrong with any of them! Great luck!

Great post but somehow I can't help but think that you were talking about me when you made the reference to people who mocked LE/Premium owners for saying they didn't have significant issues with drains from the pops. I had to eat crow on that one.

Thx. I'm not into identifying who it was from something a few years back... and that was set straight before long; it's water under the bridge. Your accumulated TWD experience on both the pro and prem/le over the last few years is very helpful to the Pinside community.

There are many other pinsiders who have much bigger red herrings in the forum history and don't have a shred of your character in owning up to a mis-step (or often mis-steps).

I would just try to find a place where you can play some of these games and then make a decision. I still say if you love the WD show and you like zombies that TWD just may be the best pin for you. For me, I would narrow it down between TWD and GB. Best thing to do though is go play them somewhere, even if you gotta drive a hundred miles to do so, at least then you will know.

They are both awesome games. You like TWD show and zombies so I'd probably go that route. TWD is probably the better game honestly.

PM some local Pinsiders who own TWD ans GB and ask them if you can stop by and play their games.

Great idea!

I agree , at first glance it seems that they are very similar .... not the case

Hate to break it to you but, LIFE is not fair.

As for the design,
It was probably 100% perfect from the final whitewood but since the production PF's were assembled by line workers and rapidly tested to see if the main toys/mechs were working before moving on to the next one, I'd doubt anyone really took the time to tweak the final gameplay.

The center drains were annoying at first but, you can remedy it to a degree by switching out the left side row of rubbers for various thicknesses or different posts even, to help start/push the ball over to the right flipper.

I also stress that the flippers need to come up one tiny PF dot more on GB to make shots feel more natural. (Also helps with draining...)

B66' was surprisingly the same way.
"Clunk City" until the flippers came up one dot more.

Theme for me can only carry a game so far.
You think most people on here want to stare at a Time Fantasy completely sober?
Probably not, but the gameplay still eclipses the theme and here's hoping GBP will eventually get the love it deserves since the theme is already lightyears ahead of Time Fantasy.

It's kinda like IM's lukewarm reception back in 2010.
Eventually people "got it."

Really, Nimble, life ain't fair? I had no idea. Are you this patronizing to everyone?

Pins are frequently criticized for design that results in drains through no action by the player. In this case, direct SDTM drains out of the pops is a flaw. Doesn't matter if you can "remedy it to a degree".

AC/DC drains out of the pops, too, and is considered by many to be Stern's best by many folks. TWD also drains out of the pops.

It's not a flaw. It was designed to be a difficult and challenging game.

Just to my buddy Rare and others that love to ride the Pinside whaambulance that a game is being completely unfair to them.

Example:
Flash Gordon has no problem putting the smackdown on people who play with timid hands.

And just like Flash Gordon, GB makes you work for it, period. Which is why myself and others like me love playing it so much.

I've owned two AC/DC premiums and neither one drained out of the pops on a regular basis. Never owned or played TWD so can't comment.

I reject the idea that intentionally designing drains into a game that comes from no action by the player is something that designers do to increase the difficulty. If that's in their design phone philosophy, it's a BS philosophy.

So those who disagree with you are on the whaambulance. Man, you're a real treat.

Well surprise surprise, neither does my GBP.

I gave you some helpful suggestions to try so you can minimize John's supposed unfairness to you so, what else can I say?
After all, that Gozer target at the back isn't pointed directly at the player so, he's still got some heart right?

You seem to own one so why not pull the glass and experiment with what works best for your particular game?

Hey,
Nobody's forcing you to get in...
I find that walking can be really enjoyable too.

I have a gb thats fair out of the pops too, works perfect, still hate it

But my first twd, and second acdc where a nightmare from the pops stdm compared to the others.. just saying each game is different, for every owner. no need to put that down as life being unfair ..

Yes, but is it code-based hate, or are you hating on the layout because you literally did nothing to the machine to help try and remedy it?

Seems like there is a lot more of the latter going on around here.

I'll admit the LIFE comment was a bit heavy handed and my apology to dmesserly but, I'm just really tired of people constantly blaming stuff that's well under their control.

I have always bit my tounge on GB, but I thought that Ghost Busters sucked out of the box, sucked with the playfield issues, sucked after all the tweaks, sucked after code updates, the music sucks (funckin piano music), walk the dog Sucks, 20 seconds in the pop bumpers sucks, stop....................................and go sucks and yes how hard it is for a family friendly game is a drop of the ball by Stern and who designed it. I wanted and I tried and tried again and one more time to like it, but it is my least favorite Stern. I was really disappointed.

I only had about 100 plays on GB though. I will put a game in here or there but to own? No. I like NASCAR, MONO, TAV, RCT and (DUH!) LOTR, SM and Tron to answer the OP's question more. People are really saying that this is better than SM TRoN and......LOTR!? Cmon! My friends love GB though. This is all ok. Something for everyone. If you like it then buy it. Play it first.

You guys crack me up with you're 'flipper gap' moaning and 'center post' modding. When I get a stern, I create my own flipper gap and remove center posts!

IMG_1374 (resized).JPG

Man up and play some pinball

Totally different situation. People bagged on IM at launch for these reasons:

-It was an Austin Powers "remake"
-It was the "cheapest" Stern yet with minimal features & obvious Hasbro toys
-It was the end of "deep code", with a relatively modeless game design.

It was after people played it that people said "Holy crap, this is fun!"

GB was the opposite. Everyone was completely stoked for the game...100% positive ...until we played it lol

Flash Gordon doesn't have mode based gameplay. Its challenge matches its content.

Sorry Rare, I had to fix the wording on that Flash Gordon bit so people didn't think JT designed it.

Look, I know how it (FG) plays, but there's still the same risk/rewards mentality involved in both games' design.

You can play it safe if you'd like, but there's more fun to be had, with much better payoffs for those riskier shots.

As for IM,
People also complained about the Monger SDTMs, cheap outlanes, War Machine kickback being too fast, botched right ramp returning SDTM, etc...
It was and still is a tough game to play well with any consistency, just like GBP.

I'd wager putting magnaslings on IM would result in probably a 98% drop in people wanting to own one based simply on their unpredictability. The other 2% percent would be me, SKB (lol), and whoever else that seeks MORE pin-challenge than less.

Really? That's definitely a new one.
Here I am thinking it's been one of Stern's better attempts.

so we learned what...

Stop hyping stuff before you play it

If you hype stuff, be ready for your own manufactured disappointment

GB and GOT continue to be the games I feed until my pockets are empty at the arcade. Both are snubbed by some regulars here on pinside. Both games continue to perform as being FUN and differentiating between players of skill in our leagues.. so they are winners in my book.

Everyone's going to have a different opinion...but even if you're a fan of GB, you have to admit, its reception has been polarizing...and the reasons are valid.

The code never bothered me that much, to be honest thats why I stuck with 1.05 so long. Set up everything to my taste and played. The new blinding lightshow of sfc multi just pushed me over the edge

Layout is fine also, I tweaked everything it to play perfect, adjusted the flippers day one, added the center post for the kids(sure.. was the first to fix up an airball protector and suggested the PKE ramp lower hex post and bending of the flap to smooth it out. I really love to get nib and really tune them to play great

The magna slings as you mentioned will always be unpredictable and can screw up a succesfull high scoring game , making this a luck thing instead of skill. (Then stay out of the slings ..)

Just leaves one thing thats not fitting in this set up I guess, and thats me!

While you are considering TWD there are plenty of sound mods presented within TWD sound replacement thread.

Isolate the OP , Cleland, myself , KPG and others (starting from the end backwards.) to get an idea of what has been done.

There are at least 10 variations and all you have to do is ask nicely or follow the provided link.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/walking-dead-le-sound-replacement-v-09

Yeah, the one thing that bugged me the most about GB was ALL those clear/white inserts.

Luckily we can fix that too with the use of colored stage lighting gels.
Night and day difference once everything gets buttoned up and toned down.

XMLE was where I learned that trick.

Well,
Sad to hear it's not going to work out Steiger but at least you gave it a fighting chance by doing those fixes.

Good luck with your next game and thanks for the reply.

I know the lightshow on blackwater multiball in GOT irritates me to no end. But, Dwight put an adjustment in the settings to tone it down and it's awesome, seems weird Dwight wouldn't do the same for GB, has anyone checked to see if it's in the feature adjustments on the new code?

I have a Ghostbusters premium and love it although I don't get the play it much because my wife's always on the damn game also Lord of the Rings but can never get that far getting a Spider-Man soon so be able to give my 2 cents on that

The call outs on GB are hilarious I even like just hitting the buttons as I go by the machine to hear the different ones

None of these trinkets have anything to do with making the game better and are purely decorative, and we all know it's subjective whether or not anything is improved. I'd cast a vote for the Premium being better than the pro on Walking Dead.

True, but BG light mod truly enhances the gameplay experience, and really should have been in there from the factory. Agree the other 2 are only if you like the theme enough. By default I dont like trinkets on any game. But on TWD for some reason i find they work.

Yikes.

One of the numerous features I really like on my TWD Premium is how the playfield lighting varies with the modes. That TWD Pro looks like it's in constant "Xmas Tree" mode.

I can understand people being frustrated with some of the out of the box experiences.. but those are largely par for the course. Its 'normal' - sucky, but the norm to adjust switches, toys, etc.

The complaining about the airballs, flipper gap, and self-proclaimed expert analysis calling it 'bad design' etc.. No I don't really find those valid. Just like the amount of whine spilled over the ladder design of the rules. The main thing I find to be a 'flaw' is the inlane guides allowing balls to hop over.. for what looks like no reason (maybe the removed toy was why the initial design was that way). I find it unacceptable that the game hasn't gotten engineering updates to address it.. and I think it continues to prove the folly in Stern's change in release philosophy to release games without field testing.

The game is hard.. not everyone is going to like that. The majority of the early bitching was about things like 'games without multiball', not being able to get the wizard mode (in like the first week.. this was my favorite).. difficulty in advancing through the game. Most game reception will always be varied because people like different things.

I think its mostly the problem of the hype bubble here on pinside. The rumors come out about the next title.. and everyone's heads blow up over the theme alone.. then we get months of build up.. followed by the dip when the game is displayed.. followed by another build up as people wait to see/play.. followed by another dip when no design can ever live up to the hype... and then the complaining starts when the games hit the street... and reality finally smashing head long into the hype train. People's buying habits are creating their own problems.

They're absolutely valid, because many many people have played the game and due to those design choices, players have the impression: NOT FUN. If lots of people have that reaction to the design, it's absolutely valid to call it "bad".

We've gone over this before, but there's a difference between "hard" and "cheap/frustrating". My girlfriend thinks every game is hard...but she'll keep playing them. She won't play Ghostbusters. It literally just made her mad. Pinball shouldn't make people mad!!! I like hard games...if they're FUN! GB makes ME mad when I play it. The design is such that the response of ANGER is common. Now - I'll be fair to those who have theirs tweaked...I haven't played one with the outlanes tightened, carrot flippers, center post, flipper droop-undrooped ....and I'm quite sure all those things make the game more fun - but they're all correcting the intended design...so, once again, it's a valid point to critique the design when so many people are tweaking and modding around it.

And most of those people probably wouldn't enjoy many of the older EMs with their difficult shots.. almost impossible to return to the top designs.. relying on a jet bumper to hit a shot.. etc. It doesn't make it 'bad' - it makes it something that they don't have the patience for or appeal.

Hardware that fails... shots that reject more than normal... geometry that is awkward.. software that just does stupid, or irrational things.. those are all 'bad design'. Frustrating play? nah.

Why compare GB to EMs? Apples and oranges. EMs dont have tons of modes to advance through. EM's dont have crazy airballs. "Cheap" drains on EMs are irrelevant, as they're made to be simple and drain quick. You don't feel like you missed out on game content when you play a quick EM game. On top of that - modern locations generally don't have EMs. Ghostbusters peers and basis of comparison are other modern pins.

You just described my experience with GB lol