background:
scott ifkovits (detroit pinball here on pinside) started coordinating this project with jim smith (outstanding CPR artist) in march/april of 2012

jim sent me a teaser of one of the plastics on april 1, 2012 (I had previously worked with mr. smith prior, supplying a NOS joust playfield and feedback in his recreating the playfield artwork for CPR)

subsequently, I provided both jim and scott scans of my plastics (along with butcher paper outlines for the large apron plastics) to assist in the project

fast forward to today:
scott stepped away from the project (due to lack of free-time), allowing allowing jim and I to take up the reins and keep it alive

jim smith has nearly completed all of the artwork for the playfield plastics (he's currently working on the last piece with an estimated completion date of this weekend)

to do list:
- run a sample set of plastics (I've found one place that can screen large enough to meet our needs (I still need to find a shop to perform the cnc cutting)
(the williams joust machine may only have 11 plastics in total, however it's probably one of the largest sets [sq. inches of material] used in a pinball machine)
- create a wooden/metal form so that the large apron plastics can be heated and bent per the original specs
- acquire licensing from rick @planetary pinball (initial email has already gone out)

what we're looking for from the community:
- a count from those who would be interested in purchasing a set of plastics

given that the machine was produced in a very limited number (402 units), and that there are probably less than 200 machines still in working condition 30 years later, we don't expect that there will be more than 30-50 people looking to acquire a new set of plastics (if we're lucky to get that much interest). also, due to the low run number, chances are that the costs for this "boutique" run will not be cheap

I have no idea when kevin is planning on producing the joust playfield. jim's had the artwork complete for a year now and I've kept my last NOS playfield so that kevin will have something to use to set up the cnc for cutting and dimpling.

I've mentioned to kevin that he should at the very least announce it on the pre-order page so that he can gauge interest. he approached him to do the plastics as well, but they didn't want to take it on which is why it's become an "indy" project

while I've got the attention of some of you here, can those of you with a machine report the part no.'s for your plastics?

mine were as follows, but I know for a fact that at least one of the slings were vultured off one of my other machines (when I owned 3 at one time) to try and put keep a set that was in the best condition.

player one side
519-1          cross-over plastic
519-2          left sling
519-4          right out lane
31-1109-519-AP apron
31-1112-519    cabinet end marquee

player two side
519-5          cross-over plastic
519-2*         left sling
519-6          right out lane
31-1109-519-AP apron
31-1112-519    cabinet end marquee

31-1103-519-AP coin door

a quick update:
we're in the process of fine-tooth combing the artwork to ensure that everything is perfect

I've managed to lay out out the plastics to the smallest footprint possible (which is still a whopping 32" x 48"!!! due to the shapes of both the aprons and the end cabinet marquees)
on the plus side, since we'll have "dead space" that we cannot control, both jim smith and I agreed that we should take advantage of it

what this means is that we will be including an extra set of the 6 playfield plastics (the 2 cross-over pieces [the piece found to be broken in most machines) as well as both sets of slings

I'm currently in negotiations with a screening company (but I still need to find another company to do the laser cutting and then work out a method to bend the aprons).

right now, we're *hoping* to shoot for a price point of ~$250 a set <fingers crossed> but I'm not making any promises. there's still a lot of work ahead, but I hope to provide updates like this one as we hit our milestones

dana:
this is definitely a project which is a labor of love (much like most of the repro's that end up getting done). and I would imagine that 90% or more of the time it's by a person or group that own the machine in question.
at one point in time, I had 3 joust machines in my house (including the 1st pinball machine that I purchased which was one that I drove 30 hours non-stop from detroit to new hampshire and back to procure it. and I know that mr. smith's machine is actually his 2nd (his first was sold to mr. ifkovits).
your best bet in getting meteor's playfield and plastics reproduced is to find someone who's background is in graphic arts (either coral draw or illustrator) and owns a meteor (because they want a set for themselves). as stu from CPR can attest, this is more a hobby than a profession. these guys (and gals) aren't taking home a size-able paycheck (if any) for the work that they're doing.
for the joust playfield, I posted my NOS playfield to jim smith so that he had something clean to work from. additionally, I scanned all of my plastics (which are all complete, unfaded and un-broken) both front and back so that again, he had clean reference material.

marc:
I wouldn't worry too much. they'll get done one way or another. this will definitely be a boutique run, much like the playfields when CPR *finally* gets around to running those.

a bit more back story. I attempted to get these done over 5 years ago, however negotiations fell through with the parties that I was working with (pretty much before the project got off of the ground). I was pleasantly surprised to see mr.'s ifkovits and smith picking up the project last spring and extremely grateful that I was permitted to help out

no update yet. we've identified a few inconsistencies / errors with the plastics (both with what we're attempting to do and what williams did 30 years ago) and mr. smith is correcting those.

after that, he and stu (CPR stu) are going to determine the pantone spot color values and then I'll have the plastics screened (I have at least one [local] company that can accommodate our size requirements)

things on my "to do" list that still need to be done:
- find a company that does laser c-n-c cutting to cut out the plastics (and can accommodate a 32"x48" sheet of PETG)
- create a process (& test & finalize it) to successfully and consistently bend the apron plastics
this means that the plastics will need to ship in a rather large box (at least 6" deeper than if the plastics were all flat)
- sell a kidney to fund the costs

and now, here's a poll for those of you looking to purchase a set of the plastics:
on the original apron pieces, there were 2 stickers applied. one was the instruction set (found on top of the scroll in the center of apron) and the 2nd was on the left edge, providing cost of game information (this area was also blocked out under the sticker so that the 2 44/47 bulbs underneath could light up the stickered area)

question 1:
should we eliminate the white blocked out area on the left (pricing sticker)? (this would require everyone to remove the 2 bulbs on each side so that a "blank" area doesn't illuminate)

question 2:
should we eliminate the need for a sticker for the instructions? (instead include it as "screened" instruction text on the apron)

we have our thoughts on these, but it wouldn't hurt to see everyone else's opinions

thanks for chiming in stu (I was wondering if you would, knowing that the question was in your wheelhouse, so to speak

blownfuse:
after looking at your photos, I don't believe that it would as simple as you think to produce the red/blue variation.

if you look closely, you'll notice that all of the elements touching the blue sections still have a black outline. as the vector file stands now, the solid colors end and then the black section begins. in order to accomplish what you're asking for, mr. smith would have to alter his artwork, add in the outlines and then fill the new remaining area.

in the screen printing process, this would require at least 2 additional screens to accomplish (a different one for black w/ the outlines and no large black sections and one for the blue section)

here's a peek at what's been completed so far:

joust_plastics_layout_sample.jpg
note: the light blue is merely to show the transparent and scrap areas

corrected that for you stu

the problem with this area is that its light masked and there are 2 44/47 bulbs located underneath. if we eliminate the area entirely it makes it so that you have to remove the bulbs and that you can *never* put something there illuminated again (since it wouldn't mask properly)

I'm not sure what a good compromise would be since there is a white mask to the area (I was hoping there wasn't because that way, those who didn't want to display anything there could simply put some black paper underneath and remove the bulbs).

we'll have to give it some more thought

soon

stupid 2x post

ok, a quick update

not too much information, however we are moving in the right direction (and not advancing in reverse

- I received what may be the final artwork for *all* of the plastics from mr. smith. I am currently poring over them with a fine tooth comb (eg. zoomed in at about 1600%) to ensure that all of the dots, lines, curves and anchor points are in their correct locations and colored correctly

- I have made contact with and potentially set up plans with both the screening company and laser cutting company now (fortunately, both are reasonably local

still to do (in addition to double-checking the artwork):
- print out another set of the plastics [on paper] (especially the aprons) to ensure that the shape of each piece along with the hole alignments are correct.

edit: I will try and get through the artwork check by this weekend so that I can this step completed by the end of the weekend as well (fingers crossed)

if the above looks good, we can then:
- produce a "cut line" file and have the laser cutting company produce a "test" set of unscreened plastics which can be then installed to verify that everything lines up and fits correctly

once that checks out, we can then:
- work out how we can successfully and consistently bend the apron pieces to match the originals

after that is worked out, we can then:
- work out the licensing fees with rick @ planetary pinball
- have the plastics screened and laser cut and the aprons bent
- fabricate shipping boxes to accommodate and safely ship a set of plastics.

due to the shape of the aprons, we cannot ship them in a relatively flat box. I will need to work with a box manufacturer to produce a box that will not only provides protection, but ample support for the apron pieces. each set will probably ship in something in the neighborhood of 26"x26"x7" or slightly larger

quick update:
I'm still going over the artwork (boy, that takes time. hat's off to mr. smith for an excellent job of recreating all of the half-toning).

regardless of what I find that needs to be address (art wise), I will be proceeding to print another [paper] sheet of the plastics to perform a fit test later this week

no real updates to report

I still have the 3 large plastics (the apron, coin door and marquee end) to spot check (I've had a few other things on my plate which are now for the most part complete, so I should be able to complete my fine tooth comb verifying by friday of this week (as long as DTE restores our power soon (about 275K are without power here in michigan after last night's storms

I also having issues finding a c-n-c guy now (the 2 that I had made contact with seemed to have disappeared or are just flakey at returning phone calls. I really wanted to try and find a local person to keep the costs down, but may have to widen my search pattern for this

haha

he's not in livonia. however, he *is* the same gentleman that I've been in communication with for screening. I've spoken with him about getting it all done with him (screening, c-n-c laser cutting and the bending of the aprons). I'll keep everyone apprised with the outcome <fingers crossed>

all of you joust owner's looking for CPR to run the play fields need to start leaving kevin an email, letting him know just how many of you are out there. I told him last year that at the very least he should list it on the pre-order page to gauge interest, however it was my understanding that CPR needed to obtain a new plane sander to accommodate wide body play fields.

I'm not sure if this was a purchase made with the move to the new building or not

stu:
tell kevin to get on it!!

not only could he get joust done and out the door, I'm sure that he's got a few other widebody playfields that other CPR artists have completed that could also be run

I need to set up a visit to the plastics guy and have him run me a set of clear plastics over the holidays to test fit on my machine. I also need to remember to bring one of my aprons so that he can see exactly what type of "bending" that will need to occur

once all of the tests are done and I iron out the licensing details with rick @ pps, I'll post an update here with [fingers crossed] pricing information and a pre-order list

I apologize that the final steps have kind of dragged out a bit, but the holidays and a few other things have cause the project to take a back seat during the past couple of weeks.

I'll make an early new year's resolution now to try and get everything firmed up and complete to the point of taking pre-orders by the end of january [again, fingers crossed]

edit: january 2014

yep, that's the problem with it having a completely flat surface. mine keeps accumulating garbage as well.

look at the bright side, christmas will be over in a day and you can put away all that "good cheer" garbage for another year and go back to playing pinball!

good news / bad news day

first, the good news:
I'm supposed to pick up the blank cut plastics to test fitting after work (fingers crossed that they're ready and that they fit like we think that they should).

now, the bad news:
I took one for the team when I dropped off the .ai files to get the test plastics cut when the "guy" decided to wave about one of my original crossover plastics and snapped it in two!
the ADD part of me may offer up a 50% discount to the 1st person willing to send me their unbroken crossover pieces (they have to be in the same unbroken condition as the one that I had) that is purchasing a set of repro's from us

quick update:

I picked up the test plastics before the shop closed today and we're getting closer. there are a few alterations that still need to be made to a few of the pieces to ensure a perfect fit and then we should be able to move to stage two; generating a set of "direct print" samples to test fit (again) and also make sure that the bend for the apron is correct.

also:
after the destruction of my crossover piece, I have made an executive decision to "beef up" that particular section of the plastic so that you don't share my fate (most of you probably won't even notice the change due to the way that we're going to implement it

scott,
the reason that the piece was prone to breakage was due to the fact that Williams put an inside corner at the narrowest section of the piece. by eliminating that "corner", we eliminate the potential for breakage.

personally, after mine broke and I put in back in machine, I wasn't happy with the way that it looked. the two parts do not join or flow together like they should (with one piece dipping down below the other).

I think that our solution is much more elegant and stays true to the original design.

yes, that's the spot. mr. smith and I are confident that our solution will correct the issue. we are proceeding as planned. and no, we are not correcting the anatomically incorrect ostrich

15 jan 2014 update
- shipping boxes and packaging materials have been sourced
- licensing arrangements with PPS have been sorted

a few adjustments still need to be made to a few of the plastics before we can proceed. at least 1 or 2 more blank test plastic sets will need to be cut before we proceed with a direct printed sample set to check for alignment of the artwork and bending the apron pieces. once we reach that milestone, we can then move onto screening the final sets (like the originals), having them laser cut and the aprons heated and bent to the proper shape.

as soon as I have a reasonable ballpark idea on final pricing (excluding shipping costs), I'll post it here and then start accepting requests for pre-orders

16 jan 2014 [mini] update
I took delivery of the 60 shipping boxes today, (weighing in at almost 180lbs!)
my ups driver "loved" hauling them up my driveway in the 2-3" of snow that we received

and from this number as you may have deduced, we will be producing approximately 60 sets of the plastics (depending on the final actual pre-order numbers received here and on r.g.p.)

given that there were only 402 machines produced back in 1983, I can't imagine more than 15% of those are still in commission 30 years later. however, if I'm proven wrong before the final plastics are run, and I receive more than 60 pre-orders, I can always up the quantity (and order more boxes to accommodate shipping them)

scott,
no problem. when we get ready to ship, I'll just post your pieces out separately with just a postage sticker affixed to each one
shipping this might be a bit more expensive for you because there's no way I'm telling you where I live now so that you can start stalking me again!

we've encountered a minor set back, but should be back on track again this evening <fingers crossed>

look for another update in about 2 weeks time due to where we are in their queue to get the next set of test plastics cut

crisis averted, we're back on track now (I think), and now for a poll (for those considering purchasing a set)

both mr. smith and I noticed a few things "wrong" with the original plastics including this rather glaring odd design choice.

the crossover plastic currently covers everything rather nicely with the exception of the red transparent star post right where the ball enters each player's side of the playfield.

the question is should we leave it the way that williams originally designed it, or extend the piece a bit further to cover up the screw securing the star post?

joust cross over.JPG

I don't think that I was making myself clear enough, so here's another image of the same area with the proposed changed shown as a highlighted "white" area

joust cross over (proposed).jpg

brett:
yes, we're aware of that [other] mistake (wrong colors on transition vs. playfield color transitioning) and we've already corrected that.

back to the question at hand, what are everyone's thoughts to extending the cross over piece a bit to cover the star post completely?

ok, this side-by-side (or above-below) comparison is for the caffeine deprived
brought to you by the number '2' and the letter 'c'

original:
joust cross over.JPG

proposed:
joust cross over (proposed).jpg

31 jan 2014 update:
picked up the new test plastics this morning. will check them for fit tonight. if all looks good, the next phase will be running a direct printed set to check all of the artwork. based on the time line of working with the laser cutting company, look for updates on a bi-monthly basis.

and since I managed to solve our critical layout issue early last week, we will still be able to get the yield per full 4'x8' sheet of PETG that we originally planned. (that was a 2+ hour puzzle that I don't want to relive!) the image on page 1 of this thread representing the original layout had to be completely scraped due to the lack of a bleed area as well as additional space required between each piece to prevent distortion from the laser.

the upside to this is that we don't have to worry about increasing the price per set by almost 50%

we've still got some "extra" space left to work with, so we may include a few bonus items (in addition to the extra set of playfield sling, outlane and cross over plastics)

on the crossover piece:
we plan to correct the color transition to match the playfield below the section in question as well as extend the edge to cover up the transparent red post and screw below it. I think that the change compliments the overall outline of the plastic and how it was meant to cover all of the elastic areas underneath.

and with regards to our change to eliminate the potential breaking point at the narrowest point of the plastic, I believe that our solution completely resolves the issue. I'll post a few photos tomorrow.

a few photos of the crossover piece as promised

IMG_2915.JPGIMG_2917.JPGIMG_2919.JPGIMG_2921.JPG

yeah, that would be great, wouldn't it?

here's a look at the change to the crossover. it still need a bit of tweaking in the transitioning of the colors to match the playfield, but for a first shot, it's looking pretty darn good

IMG_2925.JPG

19 feb 2014 (micro update):
new die-lines were submitted this past sunday with what is hopefully the last set of changes. I hope to have the new set of test plastics in hand for the weekend.

if everything fits well, we'll move onto a set of 0.80" thick PETG samples that are direct printed to start verifying the artwork and test the bend for the aprons.

edit (21 feb 2014):
picked up the plastics this morning. hooray, they were laser cut this time and not routed. will check fit tonight or tomorrow morning (pinball league tonight)

will post pics of them on my playfield tomorrow as well

22 feb feb 2014 update
here's a pretty good photo that shows where we're at with most of the plastics in place on my machine (upright in service mode since the aprons are not bent yet)

IMG_2945.JPG

we're pretty happy with the fit at this point (with just a few minute adjustments which we will roll out with the next test set, along with cutting them on the final .080" thick PETG and applying the artwork on using a direct print method (just for image placement testing).

we also hope to run a 2nd set and have it screened in one color to test how the screened ink on the aprons will hold up to the required bending (testing for shrinkage, cracking, etc...)

not me. the real hero is jim smith who has pored countless hours into the artwork to make this happen

no, because currently the test plastics are being produced at a thickness of .040" (half of what the production plastics will be). it's cheaper to use the thinner material to get all of the fit testing out of the way. the next run will be with the final .080" thick PETG

just a head's up:
the next update won't be for another 2-3 weeks (mr. smith is currently busy an unable to make our next batch of necessary changes), however it should be worth the wait since the photos of the next test set of plastics will be the final product thickness 0.080" and direct screened with the artwork. with this set, everyone will *finally* be able to see exactly what they will look like on their machine.

I still have no final pricing or a set date for the completion and availability of the product (which is why I haven't opened up pre-orders yet), but we are seeing light at the end of the tunnel and believe that the still required changes are very small and we hope include all of them with this next test set. our fingers are crossed that these are the last few hiccups preventing us from moving forward and producing the final screened product with only the bending of the aprons to conquer

thank you everyone for your support and patience so far!!

if you'd like brett, I can ship your plastics out like a "beer of the month club" and stretch out your receiving the entire set over the period of a year! LOL

although, to be honest, I really do want to get this finished so that I can go back to working on another [super secret] project which has been in the planning stages for the past 18 months

just an fyi for all joust owners:
if you're looking for new (or better looking) black oxide carriage bolts to hold the coin door and marquee plastics, this ebay seller has the correct bolts. he sells them in lots of 5 with the sems lock washers for $1.00 plus shipping and he combines shipping costs.

ebay.com link: 8 32 X 3 4 BLACK FINISH CARRIAGE BOLTS PACK OF 5

all 15 should be black oxide. I already purchased and received from this seller, so I know that these are the correct parts.

at one point, I owned 3 jousts (at the same time) and they all had black oxide bolts. mine were just a bit on the 'could be nicer' side, so for the price I figured it was well worth the purchase price and given that we're getting closer to actually releasing the plastics, I thought that I would share my good fortune in finding these.

I believe (and you can't quote me on this, because all of mine had different options), that the original machines were shipped with the white nylon acorn nuts for the playfield plastics. that's what the flyer shows as well.

I've been using the rubber "barrel" shaped post caps, because I wanted to stay away from anything metal which might pop off and then scratch the playfield, but they don't really work all that well (they end up drying out over time and then don't stay on the posts).

I picked up a set of the white nylon acorn nuts for mine for when the project is done. I figure, I'll set it up just like the flyer. and since it's been huo only for the past 15+ years, it's not like it gets a ton of play.

mar 12 2014 mini update
mr. smith and I went over the parts this past weekend and found a few more inconsistencies/mistakes that williams made with the originals. we've implemented some [minor] corrections with what we hope will be the last run of test plastics for fit (which I hope to have in my hands by the end of this week)

we're also moving forward with producing a set of test aprons on .080" thick PETG which will be screened with color and white masking and then bent to see how the inks react to the bending process. we hae 2 ways to perform the bend and will see which one works best.

if everything goes as expected, the next set of [complete] test plastics will be produced on .080" PETG and direct screen printed. I'll post photos of them when I receive them.
note: the reason why this hasn't been done to date is that each direct screened run is pretty pricey. we're trying to keep the final [per set] costs down because no one wants to pay more than they have to

and finally, I should be able to nail down a price per set soon. we know exactly what our yield is and how many screens that we need to run. the only outstanding cost lies with the bending process. once we have that set in stone, pricing will be set and a reservation list will form to gauge how many sets we will be producing.

mar 13 2014 update
I picked up our first set of .080" thick PETG test plastics early this morning (it's kind of a pain having to get up at 5:30am and travel 20 mins in the opposite direction of work since their shop closes well before I'm out of work, but that's part of the cost of doing business

fingers crossed that the minute changes & corrections that we made this time around will pay off and we can run the direct printed set in the next week or 2. additionally, we discussed (at length) all of the requirements needed for the bend testing, so hopefully we're on track to conquer the final hurdle of this project

the results are that a few of our changes have paid off but we still need to make 2-3 more corrections. we still need to determine if we want to risk moving forward or run one more set of un-screened plastics for fit.

(on second thought we'll probably run one more clear test set, it's better to be safe than sorry and it will only push the completion of the project back by 1 week)

ps
the .080" thick PETG that all of the machines use today is a bit thicker than the original materials used by williams for joust, however it should also strength the pieces

btw, one of the [corrections] that we've made was to expand the length of the last slotted hole on the crossover plastic (the bottom one near the lava kickout) so that you can actually use all 3 playfield post holes to open or close up the right side out lane

yep, it's all about girth
bert (facepalm).jpg

scott,
how many of the drop targets do you need?

mar 26 2014 update
received our latest set of die-line plastics 2 days earlier than expected. we have 2 small issues to clear up, however I don't see either from preventing us from moving forward.

the next test set will be direct printed so that we can check the artwork (insert small fanfare here and I'll post pictures of the progress. I'm also hoping to get the results of our first bend test later this week, and I'll post another update once I find out how that went as well

darn! I sent him an email earlier, but no response. I guess I know what that response will be now

I've got a few extra of the 3-bank drop targets that I could send rick one of if he needs it for reference. I'll check with him

you're welcome, other than the fact that I was incorrect about the ones used for the coin door. those are a 8-32 x 1" (which I cannot seem to locate anywhere). I think that I'm going to order a set of the 1-1/2" long ones from the same seller so that they're all nice and new looking.

mar 31 2014 - micro update
we are laying out what we hope to be the [final] layed artwork files today/tomorrow and submitting them for a direct print test run.

however, MPE (michigan pinball expo) is also this week (and I'm working it every day from 8am-midnight), so there's a good chance that even if they get the test set done, I won't be able to pick it up until next week.

edit:
and with this direct printed test run, I should finally be able to nail down a price per set since we will have a final screen count (and know the costs associated with everything).

in other news, apparently the bend test went a-ok. I'll take a look and verify when I pick up our next test set

hey brett,
so, while you were down there at the show, did you remember to put on your salesman hat and sell a few more sets of the playfield plastics for me?

the completed illustrator files for the direct print set were just emailed. fingers crossed that I they will be able to have the direct printed set completed by friday morning. if so, I will have it with me at MPE for those interested in seeing our progress so far

apr 11 2014 update
pricing has not been finalized. sets will be *TBD* plus shipping (see note 1 below)
I realize that this is more expensive compared to sets for other machines, however the following factors come into play for this particular set.

- I'm not the license holder, so a royalty has to be paid to PPS for each set in order to produce and sell the sets
- the amount of PETG required for a single set is HUGE! 32"x48" (or 1/3 of a full 4'x8' sheet) compared to most machines which can be run in a 24"x24" square (or less)

once the direct printed sets are produced and mr. smith and I have verified that everything looks good to go, the 11 color separation screens will be created and sets produced (hopefully within the next 1-2 weeks)

this will be a ONE TIME run of 50 sets (less the number that I'm having to commit to PPS to pay the royalty costs)
based on the size, and weight of a full set, I will be able to ship up to 2 sets in a single 24"x24"x6" box.

orders will be handled via email (which I will provide in a new thread that will be started once we have the final pieces of this puzzle in place). I am going to recommend ups ground shipping w/ insurance (due to the size and weight of the packages) for everyone living here in the states, however I will allow other options if you desire.

for those of you that reside outside of the united states, I will need to determine the costs based on your residence and give you options.

finally, thank you everyone for your support and patience!!! this has been a long and interesting project, and I know that I can speak for both mr. smith and myself when I say that it feels great knowing we were able to create something that will help out other joust owners

note:
please hold off on sending pre-order pm's or replies here. once we receive the direct printed sets, and have a better idea on the creation of the screen-printed sets, I will start a new "official reservation" thread where images, information and a few bonus surprises will be revealed

this project was done as a "labor of love", and not "for profit". the only compensation that mr. smith and myself are receiving for the almost 2 years of work are 2 sets of plastics each

note 1:
until I have the goods in hand, or am confident of a final price, I will not be posting prices and/or starting the pre-order list (this is due to what recently happened with the laser cutting costs on apr 21)
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gauging-interest-williams-joust-playfield-plastics/page/4#1605248

I did take delivery of the direct printed set, however I was swamped with other things this weekend to post the photos. pics will be posted monday evening.

we have a few [small] corrections to make and then it should be onto spot color selection and screen creation for the final pieces <hooray!>

two quick shots of the pieces for now (along with a few of the bonus pieces

IMG_3236-196.JPG

IMG_3239.JPG

all of the pieces still have the backing paper on the backside (they weren't supposed to apply it there), however it allows for a better picture to be photographed since direct print isn't as vibrant as screening.

note: "yes", we are aware that the cross over pieces are missing the blue-red transition. a layer was lost in the final file creation and missed by both of us (and that's why you do "test" runs, which are expensive but a necessary evil)

I should have time later this week to put them on my machine and take more photos. (need to clean up the room where the machine is first)

a note to anyone attending PatZ next weekend. I might be able to make it on saturday and can bring the direct printed samples with me for anyone curious

apr 22 2014 update

good news dept:
on friday, I'm dropping off one of the direct printed aprons to have it "bent". I'm also hoping to get a sample piece with the actual screened colors that will have chosen to verify that the colors look correct.

attending PatZ on friday / saturday, so I'll probably have a few of the direct printed pieces with me for anyone that wants to see progression of this project.

bad news dept:
was informed that the shop doing the laser cutting thought that 1/2 of a set was the whole set. this means that the costs for laser cutting has doubled. still trying to work out pricing (again now) with the screening company. (and it's for this reason that I've *never* taken any pre-order money for *any* project that I've worked on until I have the finished goods in my possession and know the final costs.

updates to follow once I have more information.

wow, I can do that too!

unfortunately, I have nothing to report until I receive the bent aprons and the screened color drops from 'my guy' at the screen printing shop. hang tight for just a little while longer

may 03 2014 update
another week of 'one step forward, two steps back'

- received the color [drops] to verify the pantone colors and we need to make adjustments (no big surprise there)
- screen inks are still not to my satisfaction on diffusing the light from the bulbs underneath them (see image below), so I need to work with the screening company to make sure that they can meet my needs otherwise I need to find another print house to go through
- need to make a small adjustment to the slotted holes on the aprons (although, that doesn't surprise me and we were actually really close to home on this one. this will be an easy correction on the die-line layer of the files
- found out that the center of the aprons come into contact with the ball guide directly below them (the one that funnels the balls into the trough), which can scratch the screened ink and blocking layer. because of this, I'm looking at putting together a suggestion file for a couple of things including this issue with each set of plastics sold so that you, the customer, knows everything that we do up front and can mitigate any potential damage to the plastics

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in the good news department, the bend test was a total success and the apron looks awesome in my machine as far as fit goes. (now, why couldn't we have had other good news this week?

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I haven't started taking any pre-orders yet due to not having a finalized cost. I'm kind of caught in a chicken-egg dilemma.

if I take reservations without the price, there's good chance that I'll get more people expressing interest than will actually go through and purchase the sets once I know the final price (leaving me with thousands of dollars of my own money tied in sets that I'll probably never sell.

if I take the reservations after knowing the costs and produce the sets based on what I think will sell, I may end up with more people that want them than quantities produced. it would be a different issue altogether if joust was a machine where even a 1,000 machines were produced, however given that the best case scenario that 25% of the 402 machines from 31 years ago are still up and running, that's only 100 sets. on the pinball serial no. repository, I don't even believe that 100 people have their machines registered.

the set-up costs are quite large every time that we need to run a set of test plastics, which is why I've been careful on what we try and tackle between each test run. overall, it's been a pretty stressful project given all of the roadblocks and problems that we've encountered, in addition to the fact that mr. smith and I have been working on this for well over 2 years now.

the project will get done, however this is definitely one where I know why no one else wanted to champion it.
- each machine uses 300-600% more plastic than any other machine out there (requiring 32" x 48" of PETG per set). that yields a mere 3 sets per full 4' x 8' sheet of PETG
- the additional process of having to bend the aprons, and due to the bent not being able to ship the plastics out flat.

I've accounted for most of the logistics so far, but there is still a ways to go. (maybe I should have set up a kickstarter fund for this

what's left to do:
- correct the 4/5 issues with the artwork / die-lines to create the [final] artwork files
- resolve the problem of the opacity with the screened ink process
- correct the spot colors being used
- fabricate and produce a cardboard support structure for the box interior to keep the pieces from shifting during shipping

once this project is done, all of this crap would all look mighty impressive on my resume if I were 20 again

june 03 2014 update
it's been a while since the last update and here's the explanation:
our relationship with the partner that we had selected for screen printing, laser cutting and bending has fallen through.

at the beginning of this project, they told us that they could supply a product that would be "just" like the originals, however that was not the case. throughout the process, we were continually being pushed towards a direction that we did not want to go; using a direct print [think expensive inkjet printer] method of applying the artwork to the PETG plastic. and unfortunately that process, while great for proofing the artwork, was completely unacceptable for our final product.

additionally, the alternative (UV cured inks) that this print shop used did not lend itself to the transparent plastics that are used for pinball plastics. in addition, the UV inks exhibited of the same problems [not diffusing the light properly] as the direct printed method when light was projected from the backside and the shop was unwilling to "back up the technology bus" and use the same solvent based inks used by the companies that JJP, PPS and Stern contract with to produce their plastics.

knowing that the pinball community is a discerning group and rather than produce something that we considered sub-standard (and knew that it would be viewed the same manner by fellow 'joust' owners), we decided to part ways.

moving forward:
- we've partnered up with another company to perform the screen printing & laser cutting (I think that everyone will be more than happy with the resulting product

still to do:
- we've corrected the final few artwork issues, but are still playing around with the design(s) of the bonus keyfobs that will be included with the sets
- we still have to correct the spot colors being used (I believe that this is 95+% complete now)
- I still have to fabricate a cardboard support structure for the box's interior to keep the pieces from shifting during shipping
- I've purchased a heat bending machine and will be taking on the task of bending the aprons myself. the plans for the jig to perform the bending has been drawn up and will be fabricated by the end of the week (testing and any necessary adjustments will be made the following week).

once again, I'm sorry for all of the delays and appreciate the support from all of you on this project. as I've stated many times before, this project will be completed on my watch

june 09 2014 update
fabrication of the heat bending jig is about 90% complete (I should be able finish it up this evening and will be able to run some tests as soon as the sample pieces from grainger.com show up)

the artwork issues and spot colors have been corrected and the artwork should be complete within the next few days. once I receive everything and verify the artwork, it will be sent off for screening and laser cutting!!

so.... if all goes as planned, we may <fingers crossed> have a final, saleable product by the end of the month or shortly thereafter. I'll try and get a lock down on the final costs so that I can post a price and start taking pre-orders within the next week or so.

I will start a formal announce (ANN) thread once all of the pieces are in place and I know the final retail pricing. shipping is going to be a bit more than your average set of plastics due to the size of the box (26"x26"x6") that they need to be shipped in as well as the weight (approximately 10 lbs).

just an fyi:
this is going to be a limited, one-time run but I can't see that we won't be producing enough to fulfill the initial demand.

ps
for anyone interested in an un-cut, screened set, please pm me asap. I will need to know exactly how many sets to produce in this manner.

bump for those that didn't notice yesterday's update

a few members have pm'ed wondering why they would want an "un-cut" sheet. and while I can't respond directly for another 18 or so hours (I've exceeded the number of pm's that can be sent in a 24-hour period and I'm waiting for robin to lift that limitation from my account), however here's the short version:

"un-cut" meaning not laser cut. a while back some people were requesting an "un-cut" sheet to display as artwork in addition to purchasing a set to put on their machines.

the "un-cut" set would be shipped out as (2) 32" x 24" sheets of PETG with all of the screened artwork and a light (but not completely through the plastic) laser cut to show the "die-lines" (edges of the plastics).

given the [mostly] symmetrical way that we've laid out the pieces, the 2 panels would actually look pretty nice as art (if you're into that sort of thing).

once I have the final artwork files from mr. smith to verify, I will post images of the 2 panels for your viewing pleasure.

I may see about printing, cutting and including the pricing stickers (instruction stickers will not be needed seeing as we are screening those directly onto the aprons)

for those that want to tackle the stickers themselves (or just in case I don't get around to them), here a link to a .zip file containing both a .pdf and microsoft word document containing both the pricing and instruction stickers for both sides of the table.

http://www.pinballrebel.com/game/pins/instruction/Williams_Joust_instruction_cards.zip

june 16 2014 update
the heat bending jig is [mostly] complete. final assembly (of the guides and positioning pins) will occur once I receive the final laser cut, screened pieces to ensure that the alignment is dead on. in the meantime, here's a few photos of the jig with one of the direct printed test apron pieces to show how it works

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potential customers:
what is your opinion if we were to screen the pricing information (just like we're screening the instructions)?

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we could, but are trying to stay true to the original plastics as close as possible.

just an fyi:
the company that we've partnered up with to screen print and laser cut the plastics is none other than CPR (classic playfield reproductions)

I personally want to thank kevin wayte for helping mr. smith and I out of a tight spot and getting this project back on track in completing it.
also, huge thanks also go out to joe kase at laseriffic in hooking me up with the company that I purchased the heating bending machine from.

june 30 2014 update
the artwork is now 99.9% complete. we are making the final adjustments to one last area and should have the files ready to send out this week.

this is the [LAST CALL] for anyone who originally expressed interest in an un-cut set (which will consist of two 32" x 24" sheets) to let me know that they still want one. if I do not receive any replies regarding the un-cut sets by Wednesday, July 2nd, you will have missed your opportunity.

I will be posting images of the final layout tonight or tomorrow and hope to have final pricing set within the next week or so.

edit (july 01 2014):
the artwork is done. I'm just waiting to receive panel one. images of both panels will be posted tonight. file conversion and sending them off for screening and laser cutting will take place tomorrow

here's a peek at the layout for the final submitted artwork. I will be going over this one last time and then we should be submitting the files to CPR early next week. the tunnel's end is fast approaching now

Sheet1.jpg

Sheet2.jpg

just an fyi:
while perusing CPR's site, I noticed that dungeons & dragons holds the title of being the largest plastics set that they've run to date (each set taking up 6 sq. feet of PETG).

to put it in perspective with what we're doing here, a single set for joust takes up 10.6 sq feet and only 3 sets can be made from a full 4' x 8' sheet of PETG

july 14 2014 update
I'm a really stickler for details (or just a "pain in the @ss" if you ask mr. smith , so we're still correcting the last tiny inconsistencies that I found in the plastics over the past weekend
(it takes quite a while to go over 1,500 sq. inches of artwork when you're zoomed in at 2400% and have to strip and add layers repeatedly to make sure that all of the layers are trapped correctly

what made it even more difficult was that some of the parts like the slings and cross overs (which should have had identical artwork), did not

mr. smith is at a conference this week, so these last changes should be addressed this weekend (or early next week at the latest) where we can finally convert the files and send them to CPR for screening and laser cutting.

I apologize for the delay, however [in my mind], I'd rather do it right since we're only going to get one shot at this

in other related news, I've added a rheostat to the heat bending machine to more accurately control the temperature for bending the aprons and I will be assembling revision 3 of my bending jig this week (I wasn't happy with one aspect which should be corrected with this new design).

july 23 2014 update
I've submitted the artwork files for screening and laser cutting. the next update will be when I've received the plastics back from CPR (prior performing the heat bending on the aprons).

after that, I will start a new thread with an official announcement of pricing and availability once I've received approval from PPS and the williams holographic stickers.

edit:
aug 14 2014 micro update
kevin created the final layered files for film and screen creation last night. one final check and sign-off from mr. smith and I today/tomorrow and that's it, "it's miller time!"

aug 18 2014 another micro update
it's miller time <finally>.

the files have been approved and the films have been created for screening. all that's left now is to await the final product from CPR and heat bend the aprons.

my next post regarding this project will be the formal announcement of the completed product [new thread] with photos and pricing information. it's been a long and somewhat bumpy ride, but the fat lady is finally starting to sing

Dr_Smith
that's a rather unusual elastic configuration that you've got going on there in the center of your playfield (under what would be the cross overs).

on all 3 of the joust pins that I've owned, the rubber elastic bands have run around the 4 star posts (behind the left bank of 3 drop down targets) and around the silver post (near the pass-under spinner) and the 3 star posts (behind of the right bank of 3 drop-down targets).

thanks Lmjdad, that's the picture that I was looking for

so, I looked at my machine last night and found that unlike Dr_Smith or Ljmdad, I do not have that "4th" red transparent star post under either of the cross over sections. the holes are there in the playfield, but there was never a star post inserted. (shown as a blue circled area in the image below)

instead, both elastics loop around the 3 star posts and metal post like a dog track (shown as the violet rectangular areas in the image below)

joust cross over elastics (mine).jpg

sep 22 2014 update
a number of people have been pm'ing me about the status of the plastics. I'm still waiting to hear back from kevin @ CPR on when he'll have them done and ready to ship to me.

rest assured, I will post something once I receive them and will then start a new thread with an official [ANN]ouncement on their availability and pricing. thank you for your support in this (what seems to be a never ending) project.

I'm just as anxious as the rest of you to receive them so that I can spiffy up my machine and play it again

nope, this was an approved project by PPS

it's just taking them a while to screen and laser cut the plastics. it is the [largest] project ever done by CPR to date (over 1,500 sq. inches) and both panels have quite a few screens (12 colors on one panel, and 11 colors on the other)

_{Post edited by j_m_: wow! that's huge!!!}

sep 29 2014 update
this will be the last post until I receive the finished product. as of last week, the screening is now complete and laser cutting has commenced.

if the pinball gods are looking down with favored eyes, I'm hoping to take delivery just before expo so that I can bring some sets with me (depending on how long it takes CPR to complete the cutting and UPS to deliver the shipped the product)

although the plastics still have the protective layer on them (hiding their glossy awesomeness), here are a few photos for your viewing pleasure:
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thank you all very much but remember, 99% of the credit goes out to jim smith who did all of the artwork. I just did the busy work

maybe this will convince kevin @ CPR to run those playfields soon!!

wasn't going to post anything more in this thread, but the video that kevin @ CPR sent me was way too cool not to share

fingers crossed for the final information necessary so that I can post an official announcement w/ pricing thread next week

new thread (formal product announcement) can be found here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/ann-joust-reproduction-playfield-plastics#post-1947014