There should be some kind of time buffer on this, though. At least 5 years after production ends. I certainly wouldn't want Star Trek on there anytime soon.

But you're right, they need to get something newer than RBION. As far as the licensing goes, that's up to Pinball Arcade to secure, as Stern would just license their design and code. This is probably the main reason why we don't see more Stern tables, since everything is a license.

If its all the same to you, I'll put my passion into wherever I want. I have plenty to go around.

Also, no reason to get angry. If you don't care if pinball dies, you have nothing to be concerned about and no reason to feel guilty about it. There are plenty of other threads for you to read (at least for now

Ugh, no, that's an awful idea. It should be on there right now! 5 years and you might as well not bother.

It should be an ad to buy a game that exists and is shipping, right this moment.

Oh I'm not feeling angry or guilty in the slightest. Ironically you are the one claiming pinball will die, not me. I did say that I can certainly survive without pinball ... I do worry for those who can't. Also, I have stated several times that IF pinball manufacturing ceases it is NOT the death of pinball itself.

Wow that sounds interesting!

You know, I really like this idea. I'd like to take it a step further.

Imagine (as a maker of pinball machines), sponsoring the digital game; making it effectively free to get exposure. Do this while the game is in production; while people can buy NIB. For the market segment of NIB buyers, this gives them exposure to a new game (particularly if nobody has it on route nearby). For those who aren't going to buy a game... perhaps this will help them voice interest with what few route operators are left.

I can totally see that games post-production no longer being vendor-sponsored - and having to pay for the table instead.

I love this idea too, but it would require Stern to ship with completed code.

Random - there are pinball people everywhere! I went to my wife's long time friends house tonight and saw some people I see maybe every 6 months or so. One couple was building a new house and said they will have a Gameroom and the guy says he has a pinball already to put in it - Waterworld.
I also told one of the wife's that I went to Texas for the Pinfest and says that she loves pinball and had Evil Knievel in her house growing up and wants one back today.

Pinball needs to be brought up in conversation more! Anyone with a Evil they want to sell?

Virtual pinball does bring people in! My daughter's friends (11-12) played virtual pinball and got all excited when they learned I had real ones. We had an 18 year old over here that had played virtual pinball who had a blast playing the real things. He wants to buy one now.

A few of us put pins at a local pub and it is always interesting to watch people play. They can be really terrible. I watch a couple in their 30's put $20 in my pin ($1 a game) in about 20 minutes. I gave them a couple pointers but maybe should have given them some credits so they could practice more!

I do believe good virtual pinball has been a gateway drug bringing people into the real game.

I guess it works a lot like the online poker stuff... people playing more there and then wanting the real thing.

I can understand Stern's resistance, but I really have to think Pinball Arcade's editions of the REAL games has been one of the major contributors to the bloom in recent years. I've just spoken to so many emerging fans who have ALL cut their teeth on the virtual tables and are eager to play their true physical counterparts.

I don't think Stern is resistant at all, it's just likely not something they've been able to devote serious time to.

Its not simple licensed title constraints that have kept modern games out of most of the emmulation options....

Why? A table 5 years old is not worth playing in Pinball Arcade?

To help grow the hobby, a simple placard somewhere on the game saying something like:"Enjoy this game? Call so and so to own one in your home". Until my buddy who routes pins told me that Metallica was coming out and did I want in, it never would have occurred to me that I could own a NIB pinball machine.

That's fine if it's an ad. But it shouldn't be the whole game. Maybe one ball, or a limited playing time.

But the whole game available right away? No way. There has to be a window, and I'm guessing Stern feels likewise.

Can someone confirm this is true??? The only license in question is a Fast & Furious. I think it would make complete sense to retheme Mustang into Fast & Furious, in general they should consider more retheming.

That is the big reason I did not get to into pinball in my younger years. I didn't know how to play so game times were very short and that got expensive fast. Even after I got my first pin, it took a ton of plays to get decent.

I also think virtual pinball is a vital key getting people into the hobby. It got me into the hobby last year. I like the idea of playing real tables and ones with nostalgia. Now I like playing it to learn rules to make playing the real thing more enjoyable. I think it would be a smart move for Stern to invest in their own virtual pinball. It would be a great marketing tool.

Another idea is for Stern to referbish their old games and sell them as a certified used pin. They would be cheaper than a new pin and have a warranty. You could also trade in Stern pins to buy a new one. Not sure how all that would work with distibuters and such but it would give the customer more options.

The leap from virtual to real is so huge. Everyone I know that plays them says "Why would I pay 2 grand for a used machine when I can play it in Pinball Arcade for $5?" and 2k would pretty much cut the games included in Pinball Arcade down to the System 11's and EM's.

I'd love to know the percentage that go for it. My guess would be somewhere way into the decimal places below 1%. I'd expect you'd have to be predisposed to wanting one to begin with.

I did, although it really just got me into location pinball followed by leagues and tournaments. I did buy a machine down the road, but it's not like it was a direct leap from Pinball Arcade to buying a machine. No one has ever made that $5 comparison to me, but next time they do it to you you should ask them if they'd prefer to visit the grand canyon or just check it out on google street view. Pinball is a physical experience and while the video games can replicate the rules and art it's not really the same. Also share your machines and encourage people to seek them out.

What? Why in the world would you do that?

Of course not, the whole game. We're talking about playing on your iPad or something, there's zero comparison to owning a physical pin.

When the RBION came out for the iPad you know what happened? Interest in buying the physical game spiked. There's a reason for that.

I get that you just bought your Star Trek NIB, and you're feeling protective over it or something, but downloading a virtual copy doesn't compete with that.

It would be EASY for Stern to test the waters.... they license 1 "current" (still in production) Stern to Pinball Arcade and see what happens.

If its anything but positive, well the experiment ends. But there seems to be a lot of upside, knowing how much Pinball Arcade has boosted the entire hobby.

OK, again here's the thing ....those who are content to hide in their basements aren't campaigning for EVERYONE to hide in their basements...but some people are gonna be basement hiders, and that's OK! It's not their job or obligation to be out there being the public saviors of pinball. You can be a public savior, and that's cool. It's not Us vs. Them. Some people "hobby" this way, some people "hobby" that way.

And let's be honest, Rarehero is hardly a basement dweller. Off the top of my head:

He has a very nice collection (above ground!) that he's happy to share with people. I regularly go to very pleasant little get togethers at his house. Was just there a couple nights ago. There are no diapers for rubbing his machines down the instant someone gets a fingerprint on one.

He's a regular attendee at pinball shows, from the local to Expo in Chicago. Those are great outreach programs, and by supporting them we support the public seeing lots of great pinball.

He supports boutique pinball (in on TBL, has Bride of Pinbot 2.0) and mod makers and repairs his machines. That's money flowing into the wider hobby in general, which keeps things vibrant and alive.

He's been a Stern beta tester and talks to the designers and programmers, offering his time and suggestions to make games better for everyone.

On top of that, he designed the cabinet art and translite for Family Guy. Small club that can say they've done that for a game.

This idea that he's not "supporting the hobby" is really quite ridiculous.

I didn't use your vacation comparison, but when prices were mentioned I got the fairly common sense argument that a new pin is the price of a decent used car. My 20's are long behind me, but I can say with utmost certainty thats exactly where my head was at then, too.

Also I don't have a basement

Of course Rare Hero supports the hobby. Most everyone here does and I'm grateful for all of them.

I think the split is specifically with regards to location play. Some folks get irked with GS for suggesting they aren't doing enough unless they are supporting location play, and disagree with that notion. Others agree with GS in principle that location play is vital to the success of pinball as we know it now and what we hope it can become in the future. As someone in the latter camp, it is a natural extension of this persuasion to promote it and recruit others to join the crusade. Clearly I could do a better job of diplomacy here on Pinside and will effort to that end.

Great post. It should be planted on Gary's desk. Stern needs to go in the directions suggested by people on this thread. All the tech in the world. His games are not ready for the real outside world ( ok yes barcades but they are museums with beer ) But it is his problem that the experience of playing his games is almost exactly the same as last century. He is not taking the risks needed to break into new markets. JJP has been way sharper already.

The Pin was a risk to try and break into a new market.

AC/DC was Sterns largest selling game ever, so Gary just **might** know what he is doing......

I've got plenty of my 20s left to go. I did buy a car before a pinball machine. Pinball goes solidly into the luxury/disposable/vacation category, cars in that price range are a different story.

Starting an IRA or 401k before pinball is probably a good idea also.

Done. Maxed out annual contributions and that's all pre-takehome anyways. Found out during tax season this year that a traditional IRA is crap, ended up paying taxes on it anyways and I should have gone with a Roth.

The point I was trying to make there is that pinball shouldn't be compared to "practical" expenses or investments. It's fun. People drop that kind of money on getting their pool cleaned or visiting Disney all the time.

Couldn't agree more.

Hell, even though he admits that he doesn't care for EMs, when I ran into him at Arcade Expo, guess what he was doing? Playing/checking out all the EMs!

Greg's Iron Man video/tutorial on YouTube is very well done. Would love to see him do more of those!

Eh, it's not really that simple. Yes, Roth withdrawls are tax-free, but you're taxed on the money you put into them. If you think that by the time you're going to tap that standard IRA that you're going to be in a lower tax bracket than you are right now they can make a lot of sense, and they can be leveraged against your current tax burden.

That's true, to be more specific it's crap for my wife and I. In our case the traditional IRA is taxed as well. So I get taxed on the contribution as well as the withdrawal. lose-lose. The taxes on my traditional IRA contributions this year would have been enough to buy another pin.

That doesn't sound right. You're taxed on withdrawls from a traditional IRA, but the contributions you make to it are pre-tax dollars, and thus reduce your overall tax burden.

That was nice... But maybe you should follow the links in the quotes to see the context of the words? I wasn't saying rarehero didn't

The post quoted wasn't even in a reply to rarehero

House on an Indian burial ground?

Not to get too far afield from the thread topic, but once you hit a certain level of income the ability to put pre-tax dollars into a traditional IRA goes away. It's a benefit with an income cap.

I personally use a SEP IRA through my corporation, but if there's an income level I haven't been balling hard enough to hit it yet.

Basements in So Cal are rare. Earthquakes, yo!

The pin was a failure and it wasn't about taking risks with a normal machine it was nearly all about getting the cost down. And every machine he has produced this century including AC/DC could have been made last century. Yes it was a good title and game for pinheads. He hasn't done anything to break pinball back into the mainstream. It sounds like he thinks barcades is mainstream.

And he is stubbornly having another go at it ( the pin ) when it strongly appears there is a tiny market. He may think it is not a toy but I suggest most people that look at it do think it's a $3000 toy. It's not an arcade pinball machine and you could get a decent used one for such money that will still be worth something in a couple of years.

I don't know what it costs to build The Pin, but I think it'd be a success at around $500... That seems to be about the limit to get the casual to commit. Perhaps pushing the hobby forward means they could make a little less on The Pin since they're likely killing on the LE's.

We all wrote The Pin off here, but every Christmas season some more are spotted in the factory, for years now. So someone buys them.

You have to give Stern credit where it is due. In the last few years or so they have made some great pins. Acdc is rated in the top 10 and many Sterns are in the top 25. True, corners were cut and there was little innovation - it's 2015 and still no color displays? Still, the games were fun and that is what pinball fans want. Making a pin fun should be job 1 for any pinball company. JJP or DP could make a really great looking and innovative pin but if they are not fun or function correctly they will fail. Plus, if all that innovation brings the cost of a pin to five figures that will shut out all except the hardcore fans.

Any pinball machine is just a silly toy if installed in a residence.

Like Gary said, The Pin was NOT marketed towards pinheads.

A wealthy single parent is not going to buy a used pinball machine for her kids, anymore than she is going to buy a used TV for them.

A wealthy single parent is not going to worry about what some toy is going to be worth in the future. "I better buy this $2500 Samsung TV, because I still want it to be worth something in 10 years....." - that never happens.

The Pin sold for $2500 delivered by UPS from Amazon.

Those old "home model" pins from Bally sold for $699 in 1978 - which just happens to translate with inflation into $2,500 in 2014 dollars.

vid, you have got to stop being so rational... this is a pinball forum!

How'd that work out for Bally? lol

According to IPDB they sold in the tens of thousands of units. There was a collection of three or four of these at the TPF and they were actually pretty nice. Simple layouts but still fun and the build quality was the same as others of the era from what I could tell. Only one display but they did support four-player play.

Good points. If innovation slowly but surely builds up operator demand that would be good for the company. Losing a few home owners would get easier to stand. Sounds like pindemption is shaping up well according to Jack's Texas seminar but it sounds like a good earning arcade for most stuff in there.