If Stern wants location to pay it needs a large LCD in the backbox. Quite a few of you collectors don't like this but in a few years when JJP has more titles and used games are on location the current Stern games might be thought of like 50's woodrails are now and not keep second hand value like they have in recent years.

Gary is right to be worried because the collectors now can remember location games. The number of collectors is likely to drop in the coming years but even if it doesn't JJP and other firms will increasingly eat into his numbers. I don't see his current games changing things for operators.

GS is right. Stern Pinball may be his problem, but the survival of pinball in general is ours. If the enthusiast community stops trying to grow the hobby and merely be content to hang out alone in their basement, then pinball will surely die regardless of what JJP and other manufacturers do.

The location play issue is sort of a chicken and egg phenomenon, but again, if you're not doing something to support location pinball, then you're complicit in the death of it.

I would like to see Stern spearhead their own challenge.
For example: they broker a deal with a large movie theatre chain, or a pizza chain in a large city that has multiple locations. Stern supplies the machines, and hires 1 part time / full time guy to service the machines.
Stern should be able to sell those routed machines through auction after they discontinue production of that title, and then rotate new machines in again.

if they can make it work, they could then give the routes to someone who could afford to take over.
Perhaps even help them with an exchange program (routed pins receive trade value towards new pins).

Just sitting back, telling everyone that routes are needed is essentially just complaining that business isn't strong enough (a few days before moving to your new massive workspace).

So if I don't drive around town every weekend, playing all the location games, it will die? Pinball is supposed to be fun and not a job. If Stern cannot sell machines, that is their problem not mine. I am not going to buy a $6000-$8000 pin just to keep the hobby alive. Once in a while, I will play a pin on location but more often than not I have better things to do like life. If pinball cannot survive than so be it. Life will go on.

I like the sentiment and feel it might work, however movie theaters are also dying. Might want to think of a better business for the long haul. Pizza places are good though, they're certainly not going anywhere.

The real answer is that one of the companies needs to hire some programmers(more code! lol) to build some pins in Minecraft. The only thing my daughter and any of her friends give a crap about is Minecraft. You build some playable pins in there, and get one of those awful british dudes to make a YouTube video about them, and pinball will at least have a fighting chance.

Of course life will go on, but yes, if the enthusiast community gives up on location pinball, then location pinball will die. It sounds like you're OK with that, which is perfectly fine. I, for one, am not.

Disagree...there are all different kinds of enthusiasts...but us super hardcore hardcores? We alone cannot make a dent in location pinball as a business. When I go to a barcade like 82 - there are a TON of people there...and as far as I can tell, 99% of them are "normal" people who'd never have one of these things in their home...they just want to go out and have a good time. The location itself that uses pinball as part of its experience is what is needed for pinball to thrive on location. Cultivating that is up to businesses & Stern. They do their jobs right, people will flock to it. A few of us hardcore pin maniacs making a point to spend a few bucks a week won't make a dent. It's the "normal" people who will save pinball on location!

Bam! Thats the main point missed when ops come on here. The guy that will spend the 7k for a pin in the home generally has a life that does not include barcades. Either From work, family or simply the convenience of owning their own. This minority is another piece of the pinball sales but not the group to drive location pinball. As mentioned its the normal folks playing on fun locations that can drive that bus.

I hope you're right, but I doubt it. The Barcade phenomenon is too early to declare victory over the demise of location pinball. We are amazingly fortunate in my community to have the best pinball location for 1000 miles in any direction, yet I am not content to merely stand on the sidelines to see if it succeeds. I will continue to actively promote and support the location and enthusiast community to the best of my ability in order to help them survive and prosper.

The 2 best things going to get people more interested in pinball is collectors like us who educate and sell a newbie their first pin and Pinside. Once you get your first one there is a great chance another will follow. Once you come on Pinside chances are good you will own a pinball someday.

So yes leagues on location would be good as long as newbies could join in, but it would be better to have someone connect with a passionate collector or Pinside. Stern and Jersey Jack should put a QR code on their location games saying "want to learn more about pinball!" It will direct people to their website and Pinside. Yes people may buy a AMH pin or a BW, but the goal should be to get people interested and playing and sooner or later they will buy a NIB. Play chess instead of checkers.

If I did not stumble on Pinside and get messaged by a local collector to buy my first I would have missed out on having a great hobby and missed meeting so many great people.

Just think about it though - the "arcade" as we knew it has been pretty dead for a long time. Kids and young adults generally don't care about the arcade because they've had the best games on their phones, computers and consoles. The concept just cannot thrive in the way that it did in the 80's. The ROI on the machines doesn't make any sense. I think most places that have pins is due to the operator liking them...they might break even or make a few bucks after operating and then selling the machine...but that's not where the money is. For "regular arcades", the money is in redemption machines. The barcade concepts make sense because the pinballs (and arcade games) pull in a certain demographic that likes games but will also spend a ton of money on drinks and food. THAT'S where the money is. It's a symbiotic thing. The pinballs on their own aren't huge money makers - but when they're part of a "have a drink, stay for a while" scene - that's where the money comes in. That's why pinball at barcades have been successful. I mean, it's the same thing Showbiz/Chuck E. Cheese was doing in the 80's, and that's when arcades DID make money. They said "why just make money on games when we can make money on food & drinks, too!?"

You seem to be under the assumption that these Barcade locations will be successful and a stable reservoir for location pinball into the future. I am not so optimistic, which is why I am trying to stack the deck more in favor of location pinball by an intention to help it succeed. Not by dropping a few bucks into the machine, which I agree is of little value, but by networking with would-be enthusiasts and collaborating with the location to create attractive events which enhance the social aspect and allure of pinball.

HI THIS IS STAMPY AND I'M HERE TO RAPE YOUR CHILDREN! WHEEE!!!

Replaced pinball with billiards in the the above to illustrate that there are far more similarities than difference between the two hobbies considering the prices of the tables, and the common existence of both activities in the home and on location, leagues, tournaments, and neither at the expense of the other. There are quite a lot of people who own billiard tables in their home that never step foot in a pool hall and vice-versa.

There are more manufactures because the pinball business is doing much better.

When Gary made those statement, they were hanging on by a string.

Sorry, better than it has been for a while. That better?

He said that back when WOZ was announced in 2010/2011.

My local movie theater has as a new stern Star Trek in their game room

We have tried Pinball in the past at our Arcade. I have my distributor on the lookout for a used Star Trek Pro so we can give it one more try. Our goal is to have it do well enough to add more so we can have tournaments at our business instead of our house someday.

Well, that's fantastic and I wish you luck if that's how you chose to spend your time. However, don't put the burden of this task on every one of us. It's not my job. We're all allowed to enjoy pinball however we choose without getting guilt tripped about it.

Yup. And the bubble started growing in 2012 with AC/DC.

Your dollars alone may not make a dent... but you need to champion the concept and bring others with you. Then you can make a difference. Things like running leagues give the locations steady business, especially if it's new business they may not otherwise have had. Leagues give people reasons to socialize around the game... it creates buzz.. people start sharing in social media.. new people discover the stuff is out there, etc.

You can't just say 'put a game out there and let it fend for itself' - the industry needs more help than that.. and we as enthusiasts can help that. Raising awareness, drawing attention to the games by PLAYING THEM, helping establishing a minimum level of business, organizing events, etc.

The point being... we can help 'the normal people' know and get interested.. even if it's not our coin drop.

Sorry. I didn't mean to suggest that everyone needs to be as invested as I am. As long as collectors live, there will be machines to enjoy and that will be enough for many. My personal crusade is towards a much loftier scenario, and this is just how I express it.

Point still not hitting home.The issue is the folks we hang out with are not going downtown to these bars and other locations. I am not so I cant take them and if I did they would not go.
We are not that person nor are our friends at this stage in life.

This is pretty much my reality. I'll hit a spot like 82 every once in a while, but the truth is I just don't have much tolerance for going out anymore. I'm 37, hardly an old man, but I'm just burnt on being in places where I have to shout to be heard and I can't visit with the people I want to see.

I play socially all the time, I have collectors and friends over here, I go to other people's houses, I'm in a large league that meets regularly. Pinball isn't just a hermit hobby for me or anything. But if Gary wants to keep people playing in public they've got to figure out how to target a younger demographic. Maybe WWE was one of those attempts. If they do KISS it definitely won't be.

Wait untill end of the year when uhd blue ray is here. And then make up your mind.

And quality cant get any better? Are you kidding? Lots and lots of improvements to make on many levels in the Tv world.

And then you buy a new TV for it. Then that new special DVD player and the new special HDMI that can handle the data. Oh and then the expensive special discs. All 4 titles...

4k? I would be happy with true 1080p! I'm still waiting on most cable and satellite companies to improve upon their current compressed 720p signal.

If I want to watch anything in 1080p, I buy/rent a BluRay. Netflix quality is decent most of the most time as well.

The most interesting point in Gary's talk was that they (Stern) understood that they needed to target the younger demographic, next generation players and said that they were doing that, but didn't provide any specifics on what or how Stern was doing so.

Instead, he launched into the "you guys need to do more" angle (again, focusing on the barcade angle). That is what struck me the wrong way - he went instantly from "we recognize there is a problem" to "you guys have to be the solution". Had he expanded on what Stern was doing/planning to do, I would have been ok with "and we'd like your help in supporting tournaments at barcades" as a follow up comment/request. But it came across as "we don't need you supporting us by buying games for your basement; we need you supporting the operators who buy games to run on location".

I respect your passion...but when you say stuff like this:

"if you're not doing something to support location pinball, then you're complicit in the death of it."

That's just some guilt tripping "Us vs. Them" stuff, which doesn't help your cause. This hobby is diverse in how it's enjoyed, and no one should be shamed for enjoying it in their own way.

Well, he does have a point. Look at what happened to prices when manufacturers went after the home buyer. ZOOM!

Can those price points be maintained while selling to operators...who have driven the industry for decades? If the route cashboxes are empty that spells D-O-O-M for the industry, IMO, because I don't think the home market can sustain the companies by itself; or perhaps the prices needed to keep the doors open.

Well he's wrong about 2 things.

1) No new pin is going to be announced by Stern in 2 weeks. (6-8 weeks maybe).
2) Stern DOES have the license for Star Wars.

FWIW I heard April too. Rather it was announced when they're ready though, however long that takes.

Says the guy that lives 5 minutes from me... yet I've never met out on location or the various events. You may think that way, but we've actually proven you wrong with the # of people we've gotten engaged and locations thriving by championing pinball.

Promotion, sharing, encouragement - all things we can each do to help encourage and support pinball out on route. All in addition to our actual coin drop.

We are gathering people on the fringes, or even total walk-ups. Go into a location and find a flyer promoting regular pinball events... things that wouldn't otherwise happen or get people's attention if it weren't for people like us engaging and promoting.

You may THINK it doesn't work - we KNOW otherwise.

You're missing our point. Great, you're out doing it! Good for you, no sarcasm, I hope you're having a great time. Really.

Those days are over for me. I'm not hitting bars, with or without pinball in them. I'll drive to another city to hang out with friends at someone's house, but I'm not driving to another city to drop a few quarters and then go home.

Location play, for me, is just not in the cards. I buy games, I support the hobby, I go to shows, I play in tournaments, I'm active and social. But that's all I'm gonna do, there isn't another level of location play that works for me.

Save it for the youngsters. And if you're teaching them to play more pinball then I salute you.

That sounds like a good time and if you attract some newbies into buying a pin that is even better, with both on location play and adding a future home buyer to the mix.

I just sold a newbie his first pin at a fair price and helped him set it up. He told me he wants another one and to keep my eyes open. What I did is keeping pinball alive also by adding someone new. He will buy a NIB someday.

Resale market is important also because people do sell their $2000 pins to get a $5000+ NIB.

So many ways to help out and Gary should have played chess, by saying for us to try personally get more people into pinball, however that may be, rather than checkers by saying we should have league nights out to support on location pinball.

Good grief Flynn ,
That's the point. You and I may be five minutes away but we do not enjoy or spend our time in like manner . I don't do the dive bars much anymore and spend my free time usually with family or enjoying some relaxing down time in a much different scenario.
You want to play just for fun,have some great wine or whiskeys feel free to hit me some night. I have no interest in competition nor have the time. And as I said my friends may play a few balls but after that it's over and out.
My point is I enjoy pinball my way and respect that you and your group do yours. But that is not happening for me or the folks that I enjoy our free time with.
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And the difference is I'm doing something about the health and future of pinball - beyond my personal interests. Doing things like helping contribute to leagues, events, donating games to events, showing up at events to help keep the baseline healthy, etc.

Is the topic about the industry and what people are doing (or not) to move it forward? I jumped in because people said their coin drop won't make a dent - my point is coin drop isn't the only way you can contribute.

I'm playing in a league right now not because I want another night of competition - but because the league is setup to promote and attraction more players. My participation is to help ensure a critical mass, help admin where needed, and to just meet more people. That one night a week is part of my 'donation' to try to help make some of these things successful.

I don't go around town hunting for games, or spend time playing in some random laundry mat. I'm not really sure those days will ever return - but I do donate time and energy to efforts trying to bring more people into the hobby.. and that includes playing at public places.

Both young and old. You'd be amazed at how many people we get engaged just because people are welcoming and willing to help introduce them to the game. Some people respark old interests, some want to make the transition from virtual to real, etc. Like the saying says "Its more fun to play together" - and the simple notion of getting out there, being visible, and approachable makes a huge difference.

Like I said to Aurich - it's not as much about how I enjoy pinball for myself -- but the topic of what is possible to do to help grow the hobby and industry (per the thread topic of Gary's comments). Many times I'm going to an event, or participating in something not because I'm seeking greater enjoyment for myself.. but because I'm trying to contribute and support people's efforts to promote and expand pinball. The point is it's more than just playing games for your personal enjoyment if we are really talking about what people are doing for the hobby and industry.

I much prefer hanging out with other locals and exploring different games and just shooting the s@% over games or our lives. There are people I've known now for 20 years from this hobby that I consider friends - beyond our common interest in pin. Yes I play league and goto PAPA, etc.. but it's probably 75% social and 25% competition for me. Playing this long.. I doubt I'll get any better anytime soon

People doing things like bringing their Pins to Magfest... not because they need to or because they think they'll find some holy grail pin they want to play, but because they want to help increase the visibility of pinball to that HUGE audience.

You may be suprised to hear the large % of people who play in the leagues not for the competition, but just for the fun of playing with other people and socializing. Different people are motivated by different things. There are people who travel 30-40mins to play... who have no chance at all at every being in contention for the top finishers. 'competition' is not why they are there... just like going to a bar isn't necessarily about how drunk you can get But again, different strokes for different folks

Thanks for the offer.. hope we can get together sometime. There are more and more 'closet pinheads' in the area that we should socialize more often for those willing to share their games and interests. And frankly, nearly everyone I've met over the last 20 years has always enjoyed seeing other people enjoy their games like they do. Hopefully once BurningMan gets that TBL we can can really party around it The damn rug almost killed me tho..

TBL sounds like fun..

It's true what they say... you can't have just one. There are many people that have gotten engaged locally through our location play and public events that have gotten bit and become pin hoarders. Its so fun when you see the new guys go from zero.. to like 3-4 games in no time flat. It's fun helping them through those discovery phases of buying, locating, fixing, etc.

Gary's comments may have been a little crude and unrefined... a bit sad considering how long he's been giving that spiel.. but there are just so many ways people can contribute. Think about the guys who started pinmap for example. Other guys in the area are working by getting pinball into other events that have traditionally been video games only.. like the Games Done Quick event... or Magfest (a gaming/con event here in DC).

I don't think Gary has the answers... honestly others have done far more than Stern.. Stern didn't make the bold moves, they just played catchup once the idea was proven. But I think people need to look beyond their personal habits of "I don't like bars" or "why would I play in a bar when I can play at home" when we are talking about how one contributes to the health of the industry. An industry that keeps injecting new products into our hobby.

The dynamics of the pin audience is so interesting to see as you move around the country. Here, it was mostly the middle aged white guys and the 50+ yr old guys for so long. Now we are getting some of the 20 somethings... where when I was in Seattle last month, it's entirely flipped. It's exciting to me to see new blood in the hobby.

That's my point. I am in my 40's, working full time, living in the burbs, and doing the family man thing. Pinball on location is going to have to survive without me. I would love to get out and play more pinball but not going to happen. The whole reason I started buying pins is so I could actually play pinball when I wanted. I would of never bought a Stern unless they made a great, fun pin like ST. The best bet for Stern is to make the best pin possible and keep costs in check. I am not buying a $8k premium or a stripped down $6k version. Every new pin should be the best game Stern has ever made. No LE gimmicks, no code issues, and no bland artwork. Make amazing games and people will want to play them.

Gary has said "no zombies, too gross", "home market doesn't matter", "no more Tron runs, license expired", etc...

In other words, don't believe anything he says.

If Stern is worried about location make a cheap location game that looks good and is fun for the casual player. A normal person hardly realises that there are shots to make, they are happy to hit ramps drop targets etc.

This is something Stern has control over. Put it this way if restaurants relied solely on food critics to make menus would greasy take out places exist? No, however a huge chunk of the population loves this type of food critics would spit on.

Put out a basic 3-4k game and operators IMO would buy them up.

Once people get a taste they will want the mainstream games.

Exactly.

Did you guys see 8k at CES this year?

It's not a good analogy. People that eat at greasy spoons are paying a lot less money. Players getting 3 plays for $1 is no good for operators. Machines have to pull people in to play them. Jack has said don't worry about the cost of the machine think of how much it earns. Stern better catch up quickly.

As has been said it's almost two completely different markets. Gary seems to be making the mistake of thinking the Barcade is how to judge the future of operation venues and linking that with the "old " type of pinball machine that works there. If pinball is to have a brighter future it must stand on it's own appeal with the "non-pinball playing " public.

Gary's trying to get people motivated to sell pinball. You can't fault him for trying to spur future demand. Those shows have the most passionate pinball folks. I am one of those guys that doesn't want to go to the bar to play tournaments (earlier in my life that would have been a different story). I got 2 kids with all their activities which is my priority. I still make time to participate in the Detroit Pinball League which is in collectors homes (primarily). I also think its great that Detroit has many barcade leagues as well since it exposes pinball to an audience that may not have experienced it before or may not be able to afford their own machines yet (or just get to meet new pinball folks).

Gary is making a mistake by not catering more to the home collector. It has been what is keeping him in business. I am sure it costs him less to cater to ops since a home collector is passionately focus on things that cost a manufacturer money like toys and extensive/complete rules. I would be interested to see the sales breakdown for op versus home collector. I would predict it is skewed to the Home Collector. That said more Barcades = more home purchases.

A casual player wont know difference no need to charge less. Machine would have to be nice not saying a hollow box ...