(Topic ID: 266214)

Playing field lights out on Williams Big Guns machine

By ErikE

3 years ago


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  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by ErikE
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#1 3 years ago

I’m trying to learn how to diagnose and repairs problems with my Big Guns machine.

My situation:
I’m very new at this, have very basic understanding of electrical circuits and don’t own a soldering iron (yet). I do have a multimeter. So far my only successful repairs have been replacing a fuse, replacing some rubber parts and basic switch adjustments. I bought the game from a private collector two years ago who did an excellent restoration/recondition, power source conversion, led conversion, etc.

My problem:
I have about 8 lamps that are not lighting. These are not lamps that cycle through during the diagnostic test. I think that is because they aren’t activated by gameplay. These are ambient lights in both the play field and the backbox.

What I’ve figured out so far:
- The affected lights in the backbox are on the upper right surrounding a flasher.
- in the play field they are on the right side, starting at the kicker and going up the side.
- all wires leading to the lamps that are out are purple

This seems like a fuse issue to me. I’ve tried to test some fuses, but I didn’t find anything. I’m second guessing whether I’m using the ohm meter correctly for this. Visually none of the fuses look blown.

I’ve attached some pictures.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can give some guidance. I love this stuff, but when I read these forums I realize I have a LOT to learn.
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#2 3 years ago

Welcome! You're in the right place if you want to learn to fix these games.

Unfortunately the downloadable copy of the manual at ipdb.org doesn't include the schematics, but i did find a reference to fuses you might have missed. Here's the reference i found on page 33. The lighting your having trouble with is called General Illumination (also called "GI" for short). Look at the reference for the General Illumination on the attached pic, it says there's a fuse panel in the upper right backbox where there should be 4 general illumination fuses. Those should be the fuses you want to check for continuity with your meter.

Also, fuses don't always look bad when they blow. Be sure to pull the fuses out before you check them with your meter. Does your meter have a continuity/beep test? If you like, post a pic of your meter and we can figure out which setting you want to put it on. Let us know if you find a blown fuse. If so, the manual says to replace it with a 5 amp slo-blo/MDL fuse.

Good luck!

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#3 3 years ago

GI lights sometimes can run hot causing problems at the connectors to the board that feeds them. Try and follow the wires from the back box to where they connect to the pcb and try and reseat the plug. Sometimes it helps or may show a problem of a burnt connector or a solder joint that has gone bad. ALWAYS WORK ON THE PINBALL MACHINE WITH POWER OFF.

#4 3 years ago

Your GI connector on the interconnect board or Mpu May look like this. Besides a blown fuse. Easy fix

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#5 3 years ago

Molex connector with new .156 pins. You may need these if not a blown fuse

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#6 3 years ago

Thanks all!
Frunch, here is a pic of the meter I’m using.

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#7 3 years ago

Of all the times I’ve thumbed through the manual I never noticed that listing of the fuses. I found that fuse bank in the upper right of the back box and replaced two that looked bad (didn’t test them). The GI lit back up. I played a game, and the lights went back out. I’m assuming another fuse blew. So perhaps somewhere in that circuit there is a break or a short that is causing those fuses to blow during gameplay?

#8 3 years ago

Does 2A indicate 2 amp? If it says I need a 5 amp fuse that’s could be the problem. These are all I had to replace with.

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#9 3 years ago

Yes 2a would mean 2 amp

#10 3 years ago

Got it. I just used the wrong fuses. I’ll have to get some 5 amps. I just need to buy a variety pack from somewhere. Best source for fuses? Marcos or another pinball specialty? Or just amazon?

#11 3 years ago

Any where is good as long as it’s the right one. If you have the manual it will tell you exactly which fuse to use. Sounds like you know already.

#12 3 years ago

Any hardware store should have them. MDL-5A is available at True Value or Ace Hardware. Same as what you have in your picture just 5 amp version.

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from ErikE:

Thanks all!
Frunch, here is a pic of the meter I’m using.[quoted image]

Doesn't look like your meter has a beep test for continuity, but it's can still be used anyway. First, set the meter to "200" on ohm test. Touch the probes together and note what reading you get on the meter, it's likely under 1 ohm. Take a good fuse and touch a probe on each end--you should get about the same reading as you got when you touched the probes together. That's what you want to see when you're testing fuses. If you try testing a blown fuse now, you'll get an OL reading or something like that basically indicating an open circuit/infinite resistance. Since fuses don't always look bad, it's highly suggested to test the fuses outside of the game with a meter. I'll be happy to walk you through testing procedures with the meter if you need at any point. The meter is super handy once you learn the ropes.

As other posters said, you'll need a 5 amp slow blow fuse, often labeled MDL. Note there are 2 common fuse types used in games: fast blow (AGC) and slow blow (MDL). It's important to note the distinction because if you put a slow blow fuse in place of a fast blow fuse, it will not likely blow until after the damage is done. A fast blow in place of a slow blow will usually just blow too quickly/easily. Also, fuses in this game will be 1+1/4" length--don't accidentally buy 20mm ones like i did once

Also--*NEVER* over-fuse. You want to use the correctly rated fuse every time. If you run into a problem where you're blowing through lots of fuses, we can suggest a circuit breaker that can be installed for testing purposes. I'd also recommend taking the time to find every fuse in the game, pull it out and verify its the correct rating. I find wrong fuses installed in nearly every game I've gotten. Safety is key when working on these games. Hardware stores are your best bet if you're going to try to source them locally. I'm pretty sure i saw 5 amp MDL fuses at Home Depot recently. Otherwise, Marco Specialities and Pinball Life are good places to order fuses and other stuff.

Also make sure to track down the connector the other posters mentioned--very possible you have a toasted connector that's causing the fuse to blow. Note that fuses usually blow for a reason. If replacing the fuse doesn't fix the problem, you'll need to determine what's wrong...which on these games is almost always the connectors. The lights on the general illumination (GI) circuit on these games draw a decent amount of power, and the games have usually been left turned on for the better part of the day for years wherever they were on location in their earlier lives. That inevitably leads to burned up connectors (just like that pic a few posts up the thread) for the wiring to the GI circuits. Not a terribly difficult repair, but you'll need to get a look at those connectors to determine if you'll need to order some connector parts as well.

I'll 2nd the above posters suggestion too: never work on the game when it's turned on! I've seen countless posts where folks tried changing a bulb or adjusting a switch with the game on and wind up shorting something, frying a chip on a board or worse. It's just a good practice to establish right off the bat.

Anyways, good luck moving forward and don't hesitate to ask if you run into any trouble. This is one of the most helpful communities I've ever been a part of. Someone *will* help you if you're ready to follow their guidance.

#14 3 years ago

This has been so helpful. Thank you everyone!

#15 3 years ago

I’m still trying to chase this down. Trying to learn and be independent, but I could again use some guidance.

I got new 5A MDL fuses, tested all four in the bank that the manual identifies for the GI. Tried to play a game and by the end another fuse had blown.

I visually inspected every plug connector and solenoid for any signs of problems. Burned connectors, black, charred paper on solenoids. Everything I looked at seems ok. Is there another good visual cue?

The only I found was one loose connector on a solenoid but it’s not connected in any way to the GI. Tightened that up and replaced the blown fuse anyway. Tried to play again and blew another fuse.

Here’s where I think I really need advice? There are diagrams in the manual showing the different circuits for lamps, solenoids and switches. However I don’t see anything for the GI. I want to make sure I’ve really checked everything that is on the GI circuit very closely, but how I can tell what all is connected to what?

So far I’ve just been trying to follow the wires by color, but maybe I’m missing something.

Thanks everyone.

#16 3 years ago

Is it the same fuse blowing each time? Could you post a picture of the general illumination connector(s) in your game?

One other thing: are there any added mods on the game? Sometimes people will add additional lighting and stuff, which can sometimes be at the root of a problem like this.

#17 3 years ago

If you have a good GI female connector I would also clean the male pins behind that connector. I used 800 grit sandpaper very gently on my GNR & it fired up the lights that were out, besides changing the connector. Frunch is correct on the mods.

#18 3 years ago

It seems to be the same fuse blowing every time. I’m attaching some pictures as requested in case that helps. The first shows one set of GI lighting that I keep loosing, this one is behind the back glass. Key wires seem to be purple and white/purple.

Following those I come to a 4 pin connector that looks fine. I’ve included a close up of the male and female sides.

The next picture is the bank of 4 fuses that are for GI (according to the manual). The first one on the right is the one that keeps blowing. It’s cut off in the picture, it the wire off the bottom is white with a purple swirling stripe around it. Same colors as the wire coming from my GI.

I follow those wires off of the fuse over to the next picture, where it connects to a board (power?).

Here’s the new thing I figured out. The horizontally mounted fuse that you see there was blown. The label on the board says 0.5 I think. The blown fuse was a 1A.

Before I go wasting more fuses, is there any logic to say my 5A on the GI keeps blowing because this 1A (0.5A) was blown?

The common thread is purple wires. I have GI lights out also in the game field, and they also have purple wires on them. .

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#19 3 years ago

If you disconnect the purple white at the fuse, the side that goes to lights themselves ( Load Side ) does that 5 amp still blow? If so the other side that goes to board should be good. Just trying process of elimination. I know it's making you crazy but it's usually something simple.

#20 3 years ago

Also on the power supply board you pictured, it has the 8 connector at bottom of board with a # 8 number tag. Did you remove that connector & check male & female for burn or corrosion? It also has purple in & purple/white out. I don't know if that .5 amp horizontal fuse has any bearing on your situation.

#21 3 years ago

The 1/4 amp fuse that blew on the power supply board is for the displays.

For now, let's focus on the GI fuse blowing. Since the schematics aren't available on ipdb.org, i checked a few other things. Here's one thing i would get a closer look at: see the small circuit board under the playfield I'm pointing too with the yellow arrow? I believe that's a GI relay board, which is there to flash the GI on and off for added lighting effects. Sometimes those boards can burn up and that might be what is blowing the fuse. Worth a look!

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#22 3 years ago

On tonight’s installment of “desperate novice tries to fix his GI lights”:

I check the relay board as recommended. It looks good visually. Any chance something could be wrong that I don’t see.

For further brainstorming I followed the infamous purple wires to another destination, a hole toward the top of the play field. It’s goes up up underneath the ramp, so it’s pretty hard to see what that’s leading to from the top. It looks to be lighting though (logically should be I think) and there appears to be a bulb missing. Any chance that is my culprit?

I’ve included some pictures of that wire, where it goes, and the best view I could get without taking the ramp out.

Also there is a picture of that GI relay board as I see it.

Thanks all!!!

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#23 3 years ago

A missing bulb wouldn't cause that, but you may need to take off the stuff to gain access to those bulbs in order to check that their sockets aren't touching metal or anything like that. Does the fuse still blow if you disconnect the GI connector from the interconnect board? (The long skinny board with the 4 pin connector you showed in an earlier pic)

#24 3 years ago

I will try that tomorrow (disconnecting that GInconnector). I have one more fuse left in my inventory (more are on the way). It sounds like I should also take apart the ramps to get to those sockets underneath and see what’s going on there. It’ll be worth it because I wanted to replace a couple of rubber parts underneath there anyway.

I moved about a mile last summer. Despite my best efforts the machine got jostled more than I wanted. It is very possible that something got loose then, and I just didn’t notice it for awhile because GI lights being out doesn’t affect gameplay. Needle in a haystack I guess.

#25 3 years ago

Keep it up, none of us walked into this hobby with all we know now. Once you get this game lined out you will be able to tackle anything. I've walked and am still walking those shoes. You are in a good place.

Charlie

#26 3 years ago

I tried disconnecting the old side of the fuse. Ran through a game (simulated because I have the ramps now. The 5A fuse there still was good when I finished. Reconnected the lead, turned on the game back on, and back to no GI on the right side. It either blew immediately or I made an error testing after the simulated game. Maybe I’ll try once more to double check. The fuse was actuallyhit though, so I’m pretty sure it blew just then. Frunch recommended disconnected the GIs at the interconnect board rather than at the fuse. I will also try that. Results coming hopefully tonight.

#27 3 years ago

I’m still suspicious of this horizontal fuse on the power board. Perhaps as others suggested it has nothing to do with the problem but something is wrong there. I replaced it with a .125A (my fuse kit from Marco didn’t come with any .25A for some reason). That blew. So I put in a 2A because I don’t have anything else smaller. That blew as soon as I turned on the machine. I watched it. I haven’t yet put the correct fuse in there, but wouldn’t one or the other work at least for a minute?

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#28 3 years ago

Update: I disconnected all GI at the connectors. I had to take off the two on the interconnect board and the one on the power board to get everything off. The interconnect board feeds the back box and the the one on the power board feeds the play field. Ran through five balls. No blown fuse. Then I reconnected the back box GI but left off the play field (lower GI?). Five balls. No fuse. Disconnected upper GI and reconnected lower (so isolating the other way). Five balls. No fuse. Reconnected all GI. Five balls. No fuse.
Now I’m baffled.
Two theories:
1. There’s something still up with that .25A on the power board. I did all of the above with a blown fuse in there. Don’t even know what that fuse is for.
2. One of the GI connectors on the interconnect board for the back box GI doesn’t seem to fit very tight. It looks ok, but just doesn’t fit on with a snap like the other one does. Maybe it wiggles loose during a longer game and causes a short?

At this point I guess I can put the ramps and everything back together. The problem doesn’t seem to be under there and I’m pretty nervous about my kids getting into all that stuff.

Any other ideas?

#29 3 years ago

It sounds like that loose connector may be the source of trouble. I'd recommend re-pinning that connector and see if it continues to behave (stops blowing fuses). The fact it isn't blowing the fuse immediately tells me it's not likely to be a socket or wire touching metal. A loose connector may be causing that circuit to draw a bit harder to keep lit, which may be what's blowing the fuse. Most connector-related problems are due to resistance caused by weak/bad connections, so hopefully it'll be something easy like that.

As far as the 1/4a slow blow fuse on the power supply board: that fuse is for the high voltage that powers the displays. Are the displays working? I would presume they aren't with a blown fuse. I can't emphasize this enough: *never* over-fuse on anything electronic, especially pinball machines. The fuse is rated specifically for the circuit and over-fusing is just bypassing the safety which can cause a board to burn up, and in the worst case could allow a fire to start. We'll figure out why the fuse is blowing, just make sure to get some 0.25a slow blow fuses before proceeding further with that issue. If your displays are working anyway, you may have an aftermarket LED display installed, which doesn't need to use the high voltage circuit (it's pretty cool, they run on 5vdc eliminating the need for the high voltage circuit on the power supply board). If that's the case, leave the fuse out of the game.

Great plains electronics and Marco Specialities are 2 good places to purchase the correct fuses. In fact, both places also sell the connector parts you'll need to rebuild the GI connectors too.

Please don't hesitate to ask any questions if you're unsure what to do at any point, we're all here to help.

#30 3 years ago

Since focusing on that loose connector I’ve play five games without the fuse blowing. That seems to be the issue. I didn’t replace the connector yet. Just made sure it is on good and tight.

As for the 0.25A, I have the display board lit up, so I can only assume I’m on an aftermarket display that doesn’t need the high voltage. I suppose if I take a close look at the display board that will be pretty obvious?

If that’s the case, do I just take that fuse out completely? Leave no fuse there? Currently I’m playing with the blown fuse in place. Which is better? No fuse or blown fuse? (Assuming it’s not needed for the display board)

#31 3 years ago

Blown fuse is equal to no fuse, you can leave it or remove it. I bet you have an aftermarket display--there's no other way it could work with that fuse blown.

Glad it looks like you found the problem! I would still recommend replacing the connector when you get the chance, but worst that will happen in the meantime is that it starts blowing fuses again. You may also want to reflow the solder for the header pins that connector plugs into, but I'd just do the female connector first and see if that fixes it.

#32 3 years ago

Usually those GI connectors like we were talking about earlier in the thread. Clean up the male ends & change out the female. Good to hear it was simple.

#33 3 years ago

Thanks again! It seems to be fixed, and I learned a TON.

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