I have a pro football I have been working on and the game will play through a 3/5 ball game but will not end after 3/5 ball the ball will still kick out and the flippers still work. Also if I tilt the game I can still kick the ball and the flippers will work. I went through this post (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pro-football-still-plays-after-game-over) and all the switches on the ball count stepper are correct. I'm sure there is either a short somewhere or something is wired wrong just can't seem to figure it out.
Thanks,
Joe

HowardR Doesnt matter 3 or 5 ball it does the same thing.

I aggre that switch is open but the O relay never drops out so the game just keeps going forever.
Joe

Yeah I spent two hours on it yesterday trying to find a short or closed switch somewhere I have the schematics the other post mentioned the red green wire but isn’t it the red-white wire that would still have 24v going through it here is the snippet from that post. If I'm reading the schematics correctly it looks like that switch should kill power to that whole line after that switch. I'm not sure what the end of game cycle should do. Should the AB coil also drop out because I don't see that happening. Since this thing never worked I don't have a reference point for what the end of game cycle looks like.

One other thing what relays should shut off when I tilt the game maybe that will help find the short becuase if i tile the game does not shut off either. Not sure if that would be the easier route to finding my issue.

If the above checks out OK, the circuitry fed by the green-red wire goes through several score motor switches as well as switches on the N, M, L, O, P, and Q relays. You will want to examine all of these for problems.

fredsmythson tilt relay energizes, tilt light comes on, hold relay is released but i still have power to ball kicker or flippers depening if the outhole switch is closed. The power is just not getting cut off the O relays stays on. I thought fixing the tilt issue might help resolve the game over issue since power is still going to the flippers and kickout.
Thanks,
Joe

The flippers or kickout has power as soon as I turn on the game. The only tilt switch that turns power off to the playfield is the one on the bottom of the cabinet if i hold that open everything stops working any other tilt switch doesnt kill power to the flippers or kicker. Doesnt matter where the 6th postion switch is I still have power to the flippers.
Joe

Yes there was voltage on both sides of that switch on R even though the switch is open I read 6v on one side and 14v on the other.
Joe

Thanks for sticking in there with me Fred I wont have time to mess with it today I hope to get back at tomorrow or Friday. I will update as soon as I do more testing.
Joe

Well after looking at the schematics again I saw that the Q relay was the one giving power to the flippers there were two switches on that relay that were just a tiny bit off. I adjusted the switches and I am happy to say the game ends and the flipper/kicker is now dead! Now to make sure everything else is working and put the game back together. Thanks again for all your support.
Joe

Well I spoke too soon I was only able to get it to stop one time. Now it is back to doing the same thing.
Joe

I took the red/black wire off and it still wont release the O relay at the end of the game if I try to pull it out manually the P relay goes off. Seems like something is getting power when it shouldnt.

I have a red black wire on the outer most switch on the sixth position switch if i disconnect that the O relay still has power I have to pull the white green wire on the next switch over to kill power to O. here is a pic from the other thread but mine is wired the same you can see the red black and then the white green

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The switch is wide open i even tried to have it hit earlier so it would end on ball 4 but it just ignores it it seems and keeps on sending power. yeah i saw the wire colors on the schematic but mine are red black and white green they look stock to me I dont see a red / green anywhere.

I have about 32v going to the green and white wire and the red black wire with the 6th postition switch open.

I took that red/black wire off and the flippers and O relay still have power.

I have 24v at the white red lug if I manaully open that swtich then the O relay releases.
Joe

Yeah I went over the ball count stepper it is adjusted perfectly. it is sitting right on top og the last rivet and moves smoothly all the way there. I also checked the 3-5 ball per game plug and it doesnt matter if i have it set to 3 or 5 ball and all the connections look good I cleaned all the jones plugs that is alway the first thing I do. Is it time to call a preist to get the devil out of this game. The game is on 3 ball right now just so it ends a game quicker.

So I got on a video call with the EM repair group last night and we found out that my flippers are working when I turn power on to the game. The flippers even work when the head was completely disconnected from the game. I need to figure out now why the flippers have power without the game being started. I never noticed this since I always just started a game.

I had to take family break from working on the game this weekend. I am going to try to dig back into it this week. shouldn’t unplugging all the jones plugs from the head and still having power to the flippers mean the power is finding another way to get power since the power has been cut to O and the other associated coils since the head is no longer in play. I was going to try to trace the flipper wires back and see what I find going that route.

* P relay switch - white/brown wire - Took Wire off still have power to flippers
* Unplug the 3-5 ball adjustment plug - This is in the head. Head is disconnected completely.
* L relay switch - yellow/black wire - This is in the head. Head is disconnected completely.
* F relay switch - maroon/yellow wire - This is in the head. Head is disconnected completely.
* H relay switch - white/brown wire - Took Wire off still have power to flippers
* Score motor 2C - white/brown wire - Took Wire off still have power to flippers

OK I think we are getting closer I finally got both flippers to not have power. Also I left all the previous wires disconnected.

* Left vari-target 6th position switch contact - red/white wire - Took Wire off still have power to both flippers
* Right vari-target 6th position switch contact - red/white wire - Took Wire off still have power to both flippers
* Score motor switch 1A - red/white wire and orange/white/red wire Took red/white wires off and now the left flipper doesn’t have power.

* M relay switch - red/white wire and green/black wire - This is in the head. Head is disconnected completely.

* Score motor switch 1C - red/white wire and blue/white/red wire. Took red/white wires off and now the right flipper doesn’t have power

* N relay switch - red/white wire and brown/black wire - This is in the head. Head is disconnected completely.
* Score motor switch 2B - red/white wire and brown/white/red wire

I get about 25v on one wire at the flipper and 8v on the other wire at the same flipper this is the left flipper that is now flipping again. I tested the right flipper and i get 8v and about 11v on the other wire but the flipper is not going off since i didnt reconnect 1C.

The switches along 2B are giving about 19v

* BB relay switch - orange/white/red wire and maroon/yellow wire - I pulled just the orange/white/red still have power to flippers.

* U relay switch - orange/white/red wire and slate/white wire - I pulled just the orange/white/red still have power to flippers.

I did take both wires off at the same time on those relays. I was measuring voltage at the flipper switches.
Joe

Man I can't seem to find anything wrong with the 1 switch stack There are some purple jumper wires that are not cloth but they look stock. When I was taking the wire off of BB and U I only took the orange/white/red wire of each of those. Even if I take that wire off the other side of the red/white wire on the 1 switch stack the flippers still have power so the red/white wire is the one that still has juice going to it and making the left flipper flip. Here are some pics of the 1 switch stack. There is a little metal jumper between the red/white wire on the 1a switch stack that goes to the switch right next to it you can see that in picture one that is one of the switches with the purple wire again that little metal jumper looks stock to me.
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I traced the power coming in back to this blue wire in the pics if i take that wire off i cut the power to the flippers but i think the blue wire is getting its power from the red/wire wire down on the bottom pic. I checked and the red/white has power going to it.

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Here is a pic of the wires that cut power to the flipper one is red-white that also has the blue wire and the other i think is white+red or red+white there are two wires here they are on the same switch as the orange/white/red wire. taking blue/red or the orange/white/red wires off does nothing. If I just take the top red-white wire off that will kill power to the flipper too. I think the bottom two wires are getting power from the top wire.

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maroon/green wire and orange wire - about 24v is showing on these wires the maroon doesnt lok maroon anymore so i think i got the right wire but it is on the other side of the orange.

Is there voltage at the heads of the switch stack screws? im seeing about 11v

Is there voltage on the metal frame where the position 1 switch stacks are mounted? 1 see about 11v here too.

I tried both of these wires since I can't tell which one is the maroon/green but neither one kills power to the flippers and I get 11v if I take off the bottom wires and I get about 14v on the frame, screws etc if I take the top wire off...

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With the playfield connected I have 25v on the one flipper wire and 14v on the other whith it disconnected I have 25v on the one flipper wire and 15v on the other.

I took each screw out one at a time and still had power to the flipper. I also removed both screws and held 1a in place with my hand and still had power to the flipper.

I'm going to take a break from this as I'm going away for the weekend. I will get back on this when I get back on Monday. Thanks for sticking it out!
Joe

OK I'm back at it it looks like the red-white wire on 1a that is with the blue-red wire has the voltage to it even when the wire is taken off the switch. If I take the red-white wire off the switch the flippers switches loose voltage and no longer flip. I tested the voltage at the flipper switches and i have about 12v to 15v on each wire when the red-white off the switch if it is on the switch i have 34v on one wire and about 12v on the other. So the white-red wire on 1a seems to be the one sending the voltage to the flippers. I dont see any shorts in the 1a switch stack or any other wires that would send voltage to the flippers.
Joe

So I took the 1a switch stack completely off the score motor and it came apart in two pieces. I had the blue/red wire already off the switch stack. With the switches like this I still have power to the flippers. Do you see any wires that may be on the wrong switch etc.. should I need to take the switches apart any further?

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I think we might of found it I can get the mm to read 26v inside the top switch stack the one with the orange/white/red wire I guess I need to rebuild that stack. I only get a reading in one spot inside but i guess that is enough to send the volatge to the flippers. I will see if I have the parts to replace that switch stack and go from there. We may have progress!!!

I started to pull the switch stack apart but started to think since this switch stack is now not secured down by the screws and all the switches are open wouldnt that kill the power to the flippers? I'm starting to think this may not be the issue at least with the switch off the score motor.

I'm wondering if I don't have another issue going on with this game. I changed out the old power cord that was spliced together with a three prong and wired the black wire to the primary fuse. I put the white wire where the other black wire coming in was bottom left of the power brick and the green wire on one of the lugs that holds the power brick down. I am now getting 80v at the flipper switches this is with the playfield and the head disconnected. I am also getting some strange readings on the lugs of the power brick.

Well I found it there was a switch tab shorting out on the score motor. I put everything back the way it was and the game will attempt to start it will reset all the scores but will not advance the ball count now and the O relay does not activate so the ball kicker doesnt work. it was working before so it has to be something I did trying to fix it.

hit start button S pulls in hold relay pulls in then Q pulls in and thats it. if I manually pull in P it will advance the ball count unit in the head.

It seems to be with the add ball count unit I have it adjusted but it will only advance to ball 1 abut 75% of the time and then sometimes it will jump two times. Should the AB do a full pull when starting I think mine is pulling in too quick and it doesnt have time to advance to ball 1.
Joe

OK I got the game to reset now 100% by adjusting the AB/ABB relay! Last issue is when i score a touchdown it scores the 6 points but does not score the 6000 points that go with it.

It ended up being an open switch on G that was causing the issue. The game is now 100% Thanks for all the help!!
Joe