(Topic ID: 268956)

Game Wont End and Tilt does not kill Power. Pro Football


By cyroute

16 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 68 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 hours ago by WOLF
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 11 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

IMG_2534 (resized).jpg
IMG_2535 (resized).jpg
20200527_171530 (resized).jpg
11caf8469babf3b8343b42297162a00ed108581c (resized).jpg
20200527_084451 (resized).jpg
20200527_084458 (resized).jpg
20200527_081026 (resized).jpg
20200527_081110 (resized).jpg
20200527_081118 (resized).jpg
20200527_081038 (resized).jpg
372257ece46567f40fd6d32950a9236038c8eee0 (resized).jpg

There are 68 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 16 days ago

I have a pro football I have been working on and the game will play through a 3/5 ball game but will not end after 3/5 ball the ball will still kick out and the flippers still work. Also if I tilt the game I can still kick the ball and the flippers will work. I went through this post (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pro-football-still-plays-after-game-over) and all the switches on the ball count stepper are correct. I'm sure there is either a short somewhere or something is wired wrong just can't seem to figure it out.
Thanks,
Joe

#2 16 days ago

Is this on a 3 ball or 5 ball game?
Does it work better if you change this setting?

#3 16 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Is this on a 3 ball or 5 ball game?
Does it work better if you change this setting?

howardr Doesnt matter 3 or 5 ball it does the same thing.

#4 16 days ago

The 6th Position switch on the Ball Count unit at 11i on the schematic is supposed to prevent this. What is it doing?

#5 16 days ago

I aggre that switch is open but the O relay never drops out so the game just keeps going forever.
Joe

#6 16 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

The 6th Position switch on the Ball Count unit at 11i on the schematic is supposed to prevent this. What is it doing?

Quoted from cyroute:

I aggre that switch is open but the O relay never drops out so the game just keeps going forever.
Joe

If you're sure the 6th Position switch on the Ball Count unit at 11i on the schematic is open then you have a short somewhere that will take some persistence to diagnose.

#7 16 days ago

Yeah I spent two hours on it yesterday trying to find a short or closed switch somewhere I have the schematics the other post mentioned the red green wire but isn’t it the red-white wire that would still have 24v going through it here is the snippet from that post. If I'm reading the schematics correctly it looks like that switch should kill power to that whole line after that switch. I'm not sure what the end of game cycle should do. Should the AB coil also drop out because I don't see that happening. Since this thing never worked I don't have a reference point for what the end of game cycle looks like.

One other thing what relays should shut off when I tilt the game maybe that will help find the short becuase if i tile the game does not shut off either. Not sure if that would be the easier route to finding my issue.

If the above checks out OK, the circuitry fed by the green-red wire goes through several score motor switches as well as switches on the N, M, L, O, P, and Q relays. You will want to examine all of these for problems.

#8 16 days ago

For the tilt issue, what actually happens when you close one of the tilt switches? Does the tilt relay coil energize? Does the tilt lamp in the backbox turn on? When the tilt relay is energized, it will open a tilt relay switch and cut power to the hold relay (R relay) coil. Check if the following relay switch is clean and operating properly:

Tilt relay (T relay) switch - slate/green wire and orange/black wire

#9 16 days ago

fredsmythson tilt relay energizes, tilt light comes on, hold relay is released but i still have power to ball kicker or flippers depening if the outhole switch is closed. The power is just not getting cut off the O relays stays on. I thought fixing the tilt issue might help resolve the game over issue since power is still going to the flippers and kickout.
Thanks,
Joe

#10 15 days ago

The "gateway" switch that sends power to the flippers is the hold relay (R relay) switch with the red/white wire and red/black wire. When the machine is in tilt mode, is this hold relay switch open or closed? Check for voltage on both sides of this switch when the machine is in tilt mode.

Also, check the 6th position ball count switch - red/black wire and red/green wire - and the zero position ball count switch - red/green wire and red/white wire. Are these switches open or closed when the machine is in tilt mode? You can also manually operate the ball count unit to make sure it rotates smoothly and clicks into each position.

#11 15 days ago

The flippers or kickout has power as soon as I turn on the game. The only tilt switch that turns power off to the playfield is the one on the bottom of the cabinet if i hold that open everything stops working any other tilt switch doesnt kill power to the flippers or kicker. Doesnt matter where the 6th postion switch is I still have power to the flippers.
Joe

#12 15 days ago

What did you find at the R relay switch when the machine was in tilt mode? The R relay switch with the red/white wire and red/black wire can send power to the flipper circuits. Is there voltage at the R relay switch lug with the red/black wire?

The (tilt) switch you're opening at the bottom of the cabinet is probably the bounce switch, which is the first switch in the circuit for all of the 24 volt side circuits.

#13 15 days ago

Yes there was voltage on both sides of that switch on R even though the switch is open I read 6v on one side and 14v on the other.
Joe

#14 15 days ago

If you were reading 14v and 6v at the switch blades, the flippers must have been very weak when the machine was in tilt mode. You can confirm there's a short in the switch by disconnecting one of the wires from the switch. If you can confirm the short, then you can take apart the switch stack to see if any of the switch stack parts are damaged, such as the switch stack screw sleeve.

#15 14 days ago

Thanks for sticking in there with me Fred I wont have time to mess with it today I hope to get back at tomorrow or Friday. I will update as soon as I do more testing.
Joe

#16 14 days ago

Well after looking at the schematics again I saw that the Q relay was the one giving power to the flippers there were two switches on that relay that were just a tiny bit off. I adjusted the switches and I am happy to say the game ends and the flipper/kicker is now dead! Now to make sure everything else is working and put the game back together. Thanks again for all your support.
Joe

#17 14 days ago

Well I spoke too soon I was only able to get it to stop one time. Now it is back to doing the same thing.
Joe

#18 14 days ago

Did you try disconnecting the red/black wire on the R relay switch?

#19 14 days ago

I took the red/black wire off and it still wont release the O relay at the end of the game if I try to pull it out manually the P relay goes off. Seems like something is getting power when it shouldnt.

#20 13 days ago

Try to temporarily disconnect the red/green wire from the 6th position ball count unit switch. This will cut power to O relay coil and the flipper switches. If there is power at the O relay coil and flipper switches after you disconnect the wire, then there's been some aftermarket wiring modifications to the circuits.

#21 13 days ago

I have a red black wire on the outer most switch on the sixth position switch if i disconnect that the O relay still has power I have to pull the white green wire on the next switch over to kill power to O. here is a pic from the other thread but mine is wired the same you can see the red black and then the white green

372257ece46567f40fd6d32950a9236038c8eee0 (resized).jpg
#22 13 days ago

The schematic is showing the 6th position ball count unit switch with a red/black wire and red/green wire. Wire colors might be faded on your machine. When the machine gets to game over, is the 6th position ball count unit switch with a red/black wire and red/green (?) wire open or closed? Check the following on the 6th position ball count unit switch:

Look for touching/shorting wires at the switch stack lugs
Make sure the switch stack screws are tight
Look for switches that might be gaped too closely

#23 13 days ago

The switch is wide open i even tried to have it hit earlier so it would end on ball 4 but it just ignores it it seems and keeps on sending power. yeah i saw the wire colors on the schematic but mine are red black and white green they look stock to me I dont see a red / green anywhere.

#24 13 days ago

When the 6th position ball count switch is open, what voltage readings are you getting at the two switch blades? Take the voltage reading on the red/black wire lug and the voltage reading at the other switch blade lug with the white/green wire. Also, with the 6th position ball count switch is open, what voltage are you getting at the O relay coil and at the flipper switches?

#25 13 days ago

I have about 32v going to the green and white wire and the red black wire with the 6th postition switch open.

#26 13 days ago

You'll need to isolate the switch by temporarily removing the red/black wire from the switch. This should cut power to the O relay and the flipper switches when the machine is in game over mode. If it does, we'll know there is a short in the 6th position switch.

#27 13 days ago

I took that red/black wire off and the flippers and O relay still have power.

#28 12 days ago

There might be "back voltage" from a section of the circuit that is shorting. To confirm - with the red/black wire disconnect from the 6th position ball count switch, and the machine in game over mode, check for voltage at the following:

Zero position ball count unit switch - red/white wire

Does the O relay coil turn off when when you manually open the zero position ball count unit switch?

#29 12 days ago

I have 24v at the white red lug if I manaully open that swtich then the O relay releases.
Joe

#30 12 days ago

When the machine is in game over mode, is the ball count unit fully rotated to the 6th position? Manually reset and advance the ball count unit. Can you manually advance the ball count unit to the 6th position / game over position? Does the ball count unit smoothly move and click into each position?

Is the machine set to 3 or 5 ball play? Check the 3-5 ball adjustment plug and plug insert. Is the plug tightly seated? Any loose or broken solder joints at the plug or plug insert? Any damage to the plug or plug insert?

#31 12 days ago

Yeah I went over the ball count stepper it is adjusted perfectly. it is sitting right on top og the last rivet and moves smoothly all the way there. I also checked the 3-5 ball per game plug and it doesnt matter if i have it set to 3 or 5 ball and all the connections look good I cleaned all the jones plugs that is alway the first thing I do. Is it time to call a preist to get the devil out of this game. The game is on 3 ball right now just so it ends a game quicker.

#32 12 days ago

We'll have to continue working through the switches and circuits to see where this "rogue" power is coming from...

We want to see what switches/plugs will cut power to the O relay coil. With the machine in game over mode and the red/black wire disconnect from the 6th position ball count switch, check the following with the accompanying red/white wire:

* Unplug the 3-5 ball adjustment plug - does this cut power to the O relay coil?

* L relay switch - yellow/black wire - is switch open or closed? If closed, manually open - does this cut power to the O relay coil?

* F relay switch - maroon/yellow wire - is switch open or closed? If closed, manually open - does this cut power to the O relay coil?

*H relay switch - white/brown wire - is switch open or closed? If closed, manually open - does this cut power to the O relay coil?

*Score motor 2C - white/brown wire - is switch open or closed? If closed, manually open - does this cut power to the O relay coil?

We'll start with this first group of switches/plugs. If none of these switches/plugs cut power to the O relay coil, then we'll move on to the next group of switches/plugs.

#33 12 days ago

So I got on a video call with the EM repair group last night and we found out that my flippers are working when I turn power on to the game. The flippers even work when the head was completely disconnected from the game. I need to figure out now why the flippers have power without the game being started. I never noticed this since I always just started a game.

#34 12 days ago

Looking at the schematic, it shows the "state" of the machine when it is first powered on. The schematic shows the machine in tilt mode with the backglass lights turned on and the tilt light in the backbox turned on. The playfield lights would be turned off.

Here's a basic description of how power travels through the circuits in question:

When the machine is turned on, power exits the transformer, it goes through a 15 amp fuse, and then it goes through a bounce switch. The power continues traveling through the circuits and feeds power to various secondary circuits with open switches along the way, which are related to the score motor, score reels, reset relays, etc. The power keeps traveling through the circuit and it arrives at R relay switch (hold relay switch). This R relay switch is open and power stops at this switch. Power waits at this point till the R relay switch closes so it can continue traveling through the circuits. Beyond the R relay switch waits the O relay coil and the flipper switches. In order for power to arrive at the O relay coil and the flipper switches, the R relay switch must be closed so power can continue traveling through the circuits and various switches.

You've "isolated" the circuits by removing the the red/black wire from the 6th position ball count unit switch, which is the next switch in line from the R relay switch. So, in normal conditions, there is no way power can travel from the transformer side of the circuit. The circuit has been "cut."

So, if power is still getting to the O relay coil and the flipper switches, there is power entering the circuits "upstream" from the 6th position ball unit switch. With the red/black wire removed 6th position ball count unit switch, it creates a dead end. The next switch upstream in the circuit is the zero position ball count unit switch. Between the 6th position ball count unit switch and zero position ball count unit switch is a circuit branch that can send power to the O relay coil. When you manually opened the zero position ball count unit switch, power to the O relay coil was cut and the O relay coil turned off.

With these clues, it looks like there is a short in a circuit/switch upstream from the zero position ball count unit switch. Using the process of elimination method by checking the related circuits/switches, you'll be able to find the problem...

#35 9 days ago

I had to take family break from working on the game this weekend. I am going to try to dig back into it this week. shouldn’t unplugging all the jones plugs from the head and still having power to the flippers mean the power is finding another way to get power since the power has been cut to O and the other associated coils since the head is no longer in play. I was going to try to trace the flipper wires back and see what I find going that route.

#36 9 days ago

You can quickly check the circuit branch with the flipper switches by temporarily removing a wire from a switch or opening a switch that is upstream from the zero position ball count unit switch. If any of these switches are in the backbox, you can skip these switches/plugs, because you've isolated the circuits and switches in the backbox by disconnecting the Jones plugs to the backbox.

* P relay switch - white/brown wire

* Unplug the 3-5 ball adjustment plug

* L relay switch - yellow/black wire

* F relay switch - maroon/yellow wire

* H relay switch - white/brown wire

* Score motor 2C - white/brown wire

#37 9 days ago

* P relay switch - white/brown wire - Took Wire off still have power to flippers
* Unplug the 3-5 ball adjustment plug - This is in the head. Head is disconnected completely.
* L relay switch - yellow/black wire - This is in the head. Head is disconnected completely.
* F relay switch - maroon/yellow wire - This is in the head. Head is disconnected completely.
* H relay switch - white/brown wire - Took Wire off still have power to flippers
* Score motor 2C - white/brown wire - Took Wire off still have power to flippers

#38 9 days ago

The previous switches were in branch circuits. We'll need to keep moving up the main circuit to the different branch circuits. Here is the next group of switches to check:

* Left vari-target 6th position switch contact - red/white wire
* Right vari-target 6th position switch contact - red/white wire
* Score motor switch 1A - red/white wire and orange/white/red wire
* M relay switch - red/white wire and green/black wire
* Score motor switch 1C - red/white wire and blue/white/red wire
* N relay switch - red/white wire and brown/black wire
* Score motor switch 2B - red/white wire and brown/white/red wire

#39 8 days ago

OK I think we are getting closer I finally got both flippers to not have power. Also I left all the previous wires disconnected.

* Left vari-target 6th position switch contact - red/white wire - Took Wire off still have power to both flippers
* Right vari-target 6th position switch contact - red/white wire - Took Wire off still have power to both flippers
* Score motor switch 1A - red/white wire and orange/white/red wire Took red/white wires off and now the left flipper doesn’t have power.

* M relay switch - red/white wire and green/black wire - This is in the head. Head is disconnected completely.

* Score motor switch 1C - red/white wire and blue/white/red wire. Took red/white wires off and now the right flipper doesn’t have power

* N relay switch - red/white wire and brown/black wire - This is in the head. Head is disconnected completely.
* Score motor switch 2B - red/white wire and brown/white/red wire

#40 8 days ago

Interesting clue about this problem - in one of your previous posts you said you were getting 32 volts at one of the switches. Could the power be "leaking" from the 6 volt circuits? What voltage reading is at the flipper switches?

Any results from score motor switch 2B?

Since score motor switch 1C has multiple circuit branches and switches, we should first look at score motor switch 1A, which has a less complicated circuit.

When you checked score motor switch 1A, was it open or closed?

So, reconnect any wires to score motor switch 1A and we'll continue on the branch circuits from switch 1A. Check the following switches:

* BB relay switch - orange/white/red wire and maroon/yellow wire

* U relay switch - orange/white/red wire and slate/white wire

#41 8 days ago

I get about 25v on one wire at the flipper and 8v on the other wire at the same flipper this is the left flipper that is now flipping again. I tested the right flipper and i get 8v and about 11v on the other wire but the flipper is not going off since i didnt reconnect 1C.

The switches along 2B are giving about 19v

* BB relay switch - orange/white/red wire and maroon/yellow wire - I pulled just the orange/white/red still have power to flippers.

* U relay switch - orange/white/red wire and slate/white wire - I pulled just the orange/white/red still have power to flippers.

#42 8 days ago

The BB relay switch and the U relay switch are upstream from score motor switch 1A, so disconnecting the wires from the BB relay switch and the U relay switch would have the same result as disconnecting the wire from the 1A switch - it would cut power to the flipper switches. Were you disconnecting the BB relay switch and the U relay switch at the same time? If not, disconnect both these switches at the same time - does it cut power to the flipper switches?

Another clue is how disconnecting switch 1A only cuts power to the left flipper switch. Schematic is showing disconnecting switch 1A would cut power to both flipper switches.

When you're measuring for voltage at the "flippers," are you measuring voltage at the flipper solenoids/coils or at the flipper switches? Is power sent to the flipper solenoids only when the flipper switches are closed?

#43 8 days ago

I did take both wires off at the same time on those relays. I was measuring voltage at the flipper switches.
Joe

#44 8 days ago

When you disconnected the wire from score motor switch 1A, it would cut power to a flipper switch. The next switches directly upstream after the 1A switch are the BB switch and the U switch. When you disconnected both the BB switch and the U switch at the same time, power was still at the flipper switch. There are no other switches between the 1A switch and the BB / U switches.

So, this would indicate power is traveling to score motor switch 1A with the red/white wire from an unknown source. You'll want to look at all of the switches at position 1 on the score motor - switches 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D, 1E. It's possible there is a short at one of these switches. Look for loose wires or touching wires at the switch stack wire lugs. Maybe a broken switch stack lug or cracked switch stack? Make sure all the switch stack screws are tight. Look for "non-factory" wiring near those score motor switches. Is there a short within a switch stack - broken switch stack screw sleeve? There should be a release pin on the score motor frame that can be removed so you can "flip up" the whole score motor assembly to get a better look at all of the score motor switches.

#45 8 days ago

Man I can't seem to find anything wrong with the 1 switch stack There are some purple jumper wires that are not cloth but they look stock. When I was taking the wire off of BB and U I only took the orange/white/red wire of each of those. Even if I take that wire off the other side of the red/white wire on the 1 switch stack the flippers still have power so the red/white wire is the one that still has juice going to it and making the left flipper flip. Here are some pics of the 1 switch stack. There is a little metal jumper between the red/white wire on the 1a switch stack that goes to the switch right next to it you can see that in picture one that is one of the switches with the purple wire again that little metal jumper looks stock to me.
20200527_081026 (resized).jpg20200527_081038 (resized).jpg20200527_081110 (resized).jpg20200527_081118 (resized).jpg

#46 8 days ago

I traced the power coming in back to this blue wire in the pics if i take that wire off i cut the power to the flippers but i think the blue wire is getting its power from the red/wire wire down on the bottom pic. I checked and the red/white has power going to it.

20200527_084451 (resized).jpg20200527_084458 (resized).jpg

#47 8 days ago

The following wires will send power to two position 1 score motor switches when the machine is powered on:

Score motor switch 1C - maroon/green wire and orange wire
Score motor switch 1A - red/white wire and blue/red wire

So, we need to confirm what 1A switches/wires cut power to the flipper switches. You can disconnect the following switch wires one at a time:

Score motor switch 1A - red/white wire and blue/red wire
Score motor switch 1A - red/white wire and orange/white/red wire

Do you see two red/white wires at the position 1 score motor switch stacks?

#48 8 days ago

Here is a pic of the wires that cut power to the flipper one is red-white that also has the blue wire and the other i think is white+red or red+white there are two wires here they are on the same switch as the orange/white/red wire. taking blue/red or the orange/white/red wires off does nothing. If I just take the top red-white wire off that will kill power to the flipper too. I think the bottom two wires are getting power from the top wire.

11caf8469babf3b8343b42297162a00ed108581c (resized).jpg

#49 8 days ago

Looking at score motor switch 1C, is there voltage at the following wires when the machine is powered on:

maroon/green wire and orange wire

Is there voltage at the heads of the switch stack screws?

Is there voltage on the metal frame where the position 1 switch stacks are mounted?

#50 8 days ago

maroon/green wire and orange wire - about 24v is showing on these wires the maroon doesnt lok maroon anymore so i think i got the right wire but it is on the other side of the orange.

Is there voltage at the heads of the switch stack screws? im seeing about 11v

Is there voltage on the metal frame where the position 1 switch stacks are mounted? 1 see about 11v here too.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Knoxville, TN
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
From: $ 28.96
Gameroom - Decorations
Singer Pinball Designs
$ 4.49
Electronics
Yorktown Arcade Supply
$ 6.95
$ 29.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
$ 25.00
Lighting - Led
Pinshakers
$ 15.00
Playfield - Decals
Metal-Mods
$ 35.00
Cabinet - Decals
Pinball Haus
$ 25.00
Cabinet Parts
Habos Arcade
$ 84.95
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
$ 48.00
Cabinet - Other
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 249.99
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
Id Rather Play Pinball
$ 20.00
Cabinet - Other
Filament Printing
$ 229.99
Lighting - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
From: $ 4.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
UpKick Pinball
$ 7,500.00
Pinball Machine
Nitro Pinball Shop
$ 5.00
Playfield - Decals
Doc's Pinball Shop
$ 27.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
$ 48.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ModFather Pinball Mods
There are 68 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside