The Bally Game Show
Bally, 1990I’m stumped. Bad PIA?
Picked up a Game show plays fine except some of the flashers not working correctly. In coil test, some of the flashers flash when they’re not supposed to. Some of them don’t flash at all. I have traced wires and believe the terminations are per the book. I did find evidence of some wire hacks and fixed them. I’m wondering if it could be a bad PIA on the MPU. Any suggestions?
So, on your game, the CPU uses one transistor to both activate a coil, and a flash lamp.
This is why you use the coil test for the flash lamps.
Either the coil is powered through the A/C relay, or the flashlamp is powered through the A/C relay.
Your manual is here:
https://www.ipdb.org/files/985/Bally_1990_Game_Show_Operations_Manual.pdf
On pdf page 2, you have a coil/flashlamps list.
You'll notice that Outhole Kicker and 'Top Ctr Ln Insert Teeth Flasher' are both connected to Q33. The PIA controls Q33, and whether the A/C relay is engaged or not engaged is what determines if a coil pulls in or the flasher flashes. On the same chart it says 1b/1p. This means that there is one flash bulb on the 'b'ackglass, one flasher on the 'p'layfield. So multiple flashers should light.
So.
While it could be a PIA problem, I would suspect that you'd have multiple coils pulling in the same way your multiple flashers are activating.
If they don't flash at all, overwhelmingly it is likely that the bulb is burned out, or the 906 bulb isn't making good connection in it's socket. (shrugs) could be broken wire. It is also common for the interconnect board in the backbox to have broken solder connections. The interconnect board also has big cement resistors that can be open.
If multiple inappropriate flashers are activating, someone may have rewired your game (always suspect prior work!), or something stranger may be happening. In either case you'll need to go into coil test, and freeze it on the suspect flasher, and see exactly what bulbs are coming on when.
Let us know what you find!
Quoted from PinRetail:So, on your game, the CPU uses one transistor to both activate a coil, and a flash lamp.
This is why you use the coil test for the flash lamps.
Either the coil is powered through the A/C relay, or the flashlamp is powered through the A/C relay.
Your manual is here:
https://www.ipdb.org/files/985/Bally_1990_Game_Show_Operations_Manual.pdf
On pdf page 2, you have a coil/flashlamps list.
You'll notice that Outhole Kicker and 'Top Ctr Ln Insert Teeth Flasher' are both connected to Q33. The PIA controls Q33, and whether the A/C relay is engaged or not engaged is what determines if a coil pulls in or the flasher flashes. On the same chart it says 1b/1p. This means that there is one flash bulb on the 'b'ackglass, one flasher on the 'p'layfield. So multiple flashers should light.
So.
While it could be a PIA problem, I would suspect that you'd have multiple coils pulling in the same way your multiple flashers are activating.
If they don't flash at all, overwhelmingly it is likely that the bulb is burned out, or the 906 bulb isn't making good connection in it's socket. (shrugs) could be broken wire. It is also common for the interconnect board in the backbox to have broken solder connections. The interconnect board also has big cement resistors that can be open.
If multiple inappropriate flashers are activating, someone may have rewired your game (always suspect prior work!), or something stranger may be happening. In either case you'll need to go into coil test, and freeze it on the suspect flasher, and see exactly what bulbs are coming on when.
Let us know what you find!
Agreed, it sounds like the A/C relay is not switching. The relay should be heard clicking on and off for at least the first 8 solenoids in test. If not clicking, it's either cold solder joints at the relay, not connected or the relay is not being driven.
Clive
The A/C relay is activating. I am attaching the results of the coil test. As you can see, coils are activating that shouldn’t, or should I say, some (most) flashers are activating when they shouldn’t and vise versa. Additionally, I should mention that the BG GI’s are on throughout the entire testing except when they flash on and off with test 1A outhole.
IMG_7698 (resized).jpegQuoted from JethroP:The A/C relay is activating. I am attaching the results of the coil test. As you can see, coils are activating that shouldn’t, or should I say, some (most) flashers are activating when they shouldn’t and vise versa. Additionally, I should mention that the BG GI’s are on throughout the entire testing except when they flash on and off with test 1A outhole.
[quoted image]
You may have to check all the wiring but first check to see if someone hasn't a reversed connector at the Aux Power Driver board and/or interconnect board especially if you notice that plugs have been replaced.
Clive
Ok. May be on to something here....The wires at the Aux Driver Power board at J11 are not per the book. I know that sometimes the book is wrong....but???
It does appear that someone reconnected (smashed) the wires into the IDC connector (previous work). I hesitate to change to the book description without confirming the book is correct. I'll look for backbox pics online see if I can confirm. Comments??
IMG_7700 (resized).JPGIMG_7701 (resized).JPGFound a good pic in the archived ads. Looks like my game is wired wrong. Will replace the connector and report back.
It's getting worse! The A and C tests are working backwards. In coil test, when the C side is testing, the relay is not energized. And when the A side is testing, the relay is energized. What could cause this?
Quoted from PinRetail:While it could be a PIA problem, I would suspect that you'd have multiple coils pulling in the same way your multiple flashers are activating.
Can you elaborate? What would cause multiple coils to activate if the wiring is correct?
Is it possible you have transistors on the driver board pushed over so their heatsinks are touching? If two were touching it could cause one to activate the other and vise versa.
Quoted from Electronmagic:Is it possible you have transistors on the driver board pushed over so their heatsinks are touching? If two were touching it could cause one to activate the other and vise versa.
Checked and don't see any. I found something I think is wrong though. On one side of the A/C relay the contacts are measuring closed in both positions of the switch. In other words, when I actuate the relay manually, the contacts are visually open, but there is continuity across the open contacts. Could this be a short somewhere? When I pull the connector at J11 the contacts no longer measure closed.
Quoted from JethroP:It's getting worse! The A and C tests are working backwards. In coil test, when the C side is testing, the relay is not energized. And when the A side is testing, the relay is energized. What could cause this?
If the relay is switching backwards, check that the correct transistors are installed on the CPU board (2n4401+TIP122) and not some weird combination like a 2n4403 or TIP107 or in the case of MOSFETs, what do you have installed? Are all the MOSFETs the same?
To eliminate the PIA as being the issue, swap the solenoid PIA with another, like the switch matrix PIA. I have seen plenty of RD boards that have had incorrect components installed, -- chips, MOSFETs, voltage regulators the works. Plenty of counterfeit PIAs in early RD boards as well.
Clive
Quoted from Cauldron:check that the correct transistors are installed on the CPU board (2n4401+TIP122
the A/C relay wasn’t switching at all (among other issues). Replaced Q8, Q4, and U18. All tested bad. Replaced with TIP102, 2N4401, and 74F08. The solenoid PIA is soldered in. I have been putting off replacing it. More thoughts?
Quoted from JethroP:the A/C relay wasn’t switching at all (among other issues). Replaced Q8, Q4, and U18. All tested bad. Replaced with TIP102, 2N4401, and 74F08. The solenoid PIA is soldered in. I have been putting off replacing it. More thoughts?
I'm confused because you said the A/C relay was switching in reverse. Does your relay energize and click on and off for the first 8 solenoids during the solenoid test?
Clive
Yes. The relay clicks on and off. It didn't before, but I replaced the TIP102, 2N4401, and U18 and now it is switching. In coil test, when it shows 1A for instance, the outhole energizes, then when the relay switches to C, the outhole energizes again. What appears to be happening is that the relay is operating backwards. Maybe the issue is that A and C busses are both energized because there is a short. Perhaps?
Quoted from JethroP:Yes. The relay clicks on and off. It didn't before, but I replaced the TIP102, 2N4401, and U18 and now it is switching. In coil test, when it shows 1A for instance, the outhole energizes, then when the relay switches to C, the outhole energizes again. What appears to be happening is that the relay is operating backwards. Maybe the issue is that A and C busses are both energized because there is a short. Perhaps?
If you can hear the relay clicking and it's selecting the same solenoid for both phases that would suggest a short or the A/C relay wiring is incorrect. Did anyone reflow the A/C relay board and introduce a short on the rear of the board? This assumes the correct relay board is being used and the wiring in the game is correct. One caveat since I'm not in the shop this week and cannot check; -- if there is an unused relay switching contact on one side, its possible to have a fused-together relay contact and the clicking you are hearing is the unused contact switching.
Clive
Quoted from Cauldron:This assumes the correct relay board is being used and the wiring in the game is correct.
The game was working with the boards in it except that some of the flasher lamps were not flashing at all, or sometimes when they were not supposed to. At some point in my troubleshooting the AC relay quit switching. That's when I found the bad parts and replaced them (TIP102, 2N4401, 7408). Now the relay switches but backwards...Deenergized relay the A buss is energized. Energized relay the C buss is energized. That's backwards to how it is supposed to be. I have pulled the MPU again and do not find any solder splashes. I did not change any wiring to cause this anomaly.
The book calls the Aux Driver board to be D-12247-566. What is installed is D-12247-559.
Quoted from JethroP:The game was working with the boards in it except that some of the flasher lamps were not flashing at all, or sometimes when they were not supposed to. At some point in my troubleshooting the AC relay quit switching. That's when I found the bad parts and replaced them (TIP102, 2N4401, 7408). Now the relay switches but backwards...Deenergized relay the A buss is energized. Energized relay the C buss is energized. That's backwards to how it is supposed to be. I have pulled the MPU again and do not find any solder splashes. I did not change any wiring to cause this anomaly.
The book calls the Aux Driver board to be D-12247-566. What is installed is D-12247-559.
Now we're getting somewhere. The Game Show suffix is 2003, all board numbers should end in the suffix "-2003". 566 is Banzai Run and 559 is Swords of Fury. Check your Aux Power Driver jumper configuration because this board is game specific and in some instances, cement power resistors and fuses were replaced with zero ohm resistors.
I know of at least one System 11 game that DID ship with some Aux Power Driver boards having an earlier game number suffix but which game escapes me right now.
Clive
Quoted from Cauldron:Check your Aux Power Driver jumper configuration
Doesn't explain why the AC relay is operating backwards now when it was correct before since I haven't changed any jumpers. But ok, one issue at a time: How do I determine what the configuration should be? See drawings. The dotted lines (jumpers) don't seem to mean anything specific.
Screen Shot 2023-09-21 at 10.38.41 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2023-09-21 at 10.43.32 AM (resized).pngQuoted from JethroP:Doesn't explain why the AC relay is operating backwards now when it was correct before since I haven't changed any jumpers. But ok, one issue at a time: How do I determine what the configuration should be? See drawings. The dotted lines (jumpers) don't seem to mean anything specific.
[quoted image][quoted image]
Page 2-10 of the manual, you can work out the config from the parts list.
I'm really confused by your posts, -- the A/C relay was working then not working and then working backwards (reverse?). You quoted parts with game numbers from Banzai Run and Swords of Fury when the game manual clearly states boards use suffix "-2003".
Clive
Quoted from Cauldron:Page 2-10 of the manual, you can work out the config from the parts list.
I'm really confused by your posts, -- the A/C relay was working then not working and then working backwards (reverse?). You quoted parts with game numbers from Banzai Run and Swords of Fury when the game manual clearly states boards use suffix "-2003".
Clive
I didn't know the jumpers were listed in the parts manual. I was looking on the schematic. I have verified the jumpers are correct on the board I have.
Now I am confused by your posts. I didn't quote part numbers from Banzai Run. The Aux driver for that game is totally different: D-11813-566. I have D-12247-559. My manual shows I should have D12247-566. If I should be using a different board, can you possibly tell me what games goes with D-12247-559, if in fact it won't work in my game.
Quoted from Cauldron:the A/C relay was working then not working and then working backwards (reverse?).
Yes, that's what is was doing at different times of repairs. Now....I swapped out the U18 (7408) and it wasn't reversed anymore, but now, again, the relay is not switching. Let me try to clarify:
In coil test...
When I test 1A, the display shows 1A and the outhole fires (along with some lights).
When I move to test 1C, the display changes to 1C, but the outhole fires again, along with GI lights.
Move to test 2A, the display shows 2A and the shooter lane fires (along with some lights).
Move to test 2C, the display shows 2C, but the shooter lane fires again (along with some lights).
etc....
In test 12, the relay is not switching anymore.
I checked the output of U18, pin 6. During relay operation (switching), the output of U18 does not change. Would this point to U10 being suspect?
Thanks for your continued interest and help!
I've made some progress. I replaced U10. Now when the AC relay switches, the coil firing is not repeated on both A and C tests. The issue now is that some things fire when they are not supposed to, and some things do not work (flash) at all. Back to looking for a wrong wire (s) or short? Perhaps another bad chip? The wrong Driver board? The wrong interconnect board (it has an aftermarket one installed).
Please read posts #20 and #21 again. Game Show uses D12247-2003 and that's what's called for throughout the manual. The numbers you have quoted here (directly above) are for Banzai Run (566) and Swords of Fury (559). Yes, there are multiple games that use the same D12247 set up but without going through every game configuration I cannot tell you which games match with others. If the D12247 installed matches the set-up for Game Show, you're good whichever game it came from.
Clive
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Easley, SC
