Hi, I have a 1975, 2 player Out of Sight pinball machine that I recently acquired. The game was working fine but now when I add a 2nd player the game resets. I'm new to this and I did a lot of reading/research to try to understand how the machine works. I have the schematics, however this is the one thing I didn't fully understand yet.
Could someone point me in the right direction. Thanks
The 'first ball' relay is what prevents a reset from happening until after the first scoring has occurred so might want to check it out and see if it is triggered when you score some points on pl 1, ball 1.
Here's the path frenchmarky is referring to... check out this switch on ZB (first ball relay). When a 1 player game is started, ZB should be unlatched as shown on the schematic, allowing another replay button push to set PB (2nd Player relay). After player 1 scores some points, ZB latches - arming the reset path again.
Note that ZB will also latch when power is applied to the machine, it unlatches when you start the game for player 1 and the control bank resets.
Reset vs Player2 (resized).jpg
Quoted from DaMoib:Here's the path frenchmarky is referring to... check out this switch on ZB (first ball relay). When a 1 player game is started, ZB should be unlatched as shown on the schematic, allowing another replay button push to set PB (2nd Player relay). After player 1 scores some points, ZB latches - arming the reset path again.
Note that ZB will also latch when power is applied to the machine, it unlatches when you start the game for player 1 and the control bank resets.
[quoted image]
I just checked and the ZB is latched when the machine is powered up, press for a one player game and it unlatches for a few seconds and latches again once the machine is ready to play for player one.
Just had this problem with a Gottlieb Wild Life would it assume its close to the same system architecture threw me for a loop but it may be close to the same thing
relay u controls the reset bank and everytime the score motor rotated it would kick relay U in and reset the main bank again .....everytime you scored 500 points the u relay would kick in and reset the main bank thats why you could not select player 2 and the ball count would not advance .......turns out there was a contact bent closed on the SB relay on the main reset bank which was bent (shorted closed ) which activated relay U every time the score motor turned so you would never get a signal to the player unit to advance the ball or add player 2
I think we need to define some terms...
The only way ZB can be unlatched is by the reset arm firing and resetting the entire control bank. When ZB is unlatched, the yellow actuating arm has popped out and is not engaging the relay's switches. When ZB latches, the actuating arm pulls in and engages with the switch long blades, pulling them in.
After you power up the machine, but before you press the replay button, is ZB latched (the actuating arm is pulled in)?
When you press the replay button, the control bank resets and, as a result, ZB unlatches (the actuating arm pops out)?
Quoted from DaMoib:I think we need to define some terms...
The only way ZB can be unlatched is by the reset arm firing and resetting the entire control bank. When ZB is unlatched, the yellow actuating arm has popped out and is not engaging the relay's switches. When ZB latches, the actuating arm pulls in and engages with the switch long blades, pulling them in.
After you power up the machine, but before you press the replay button, is ZB latched (the actuating arm is pulled in)?
When you press the replay button, the control bank resets and, as a result, ZB unlatches (the actuating arm pops out)?
Here is the sequence.
.When I plug the machine in ZB (1st ball replay) is latched.
. Press the power button on the machine and ZB is still latched.
.Press the start game button and during the reset it stays latched until it complete the reset then it will unlatch for a second and latch again.
At this point the game is ready for play.
I did check SB 1and2 and the switches look ok a little dirty so I cleaned them, but no difference ZB still latches.
If ZB re-latches with player1/ball 1 still sitting in the shooter lane, one of these switches (see attached) is closed - they should all be open at this point. It *should* eventually latch as a result of a player 1 scoring and the N or M switch closing.
Each one of these switches has a RED-WH and YEL+GR wire.
ZB relay (resized).jpgIf ZB re-latches with player1/ball 1 still sitting in the shooter lane, one of these switches (see attached) is closed - they should all be open at this point. It *should* eventually latch as a result of a player 1 scoring and the N or M switch closing.
Each one of these switches has a RED-WH and YEL+GR wire.[quoted image]<It turned out to be the switch on the N relay it had a small gap and I'm guessing that it was close enough that it was making contact with vibration. I opened the gap a little and I'm able to get 2 players now. Thanks so much for your help. My next challenge is the scoring the bonus value on the play field will stop at 6000 and the bonus stepper will count up to 15 but it doesn't seem to reset when it goes to the next player.
"It turned out to be the switch on the N relay it had a small gap and I'm guessing that it was close enough that it was making contact with vibration. I opened the gap a little and I'm able to get 2 players now. Thanks so much for your help. My next challenge is the scoring the bonus value on the play field will stop at 6000 and the bonus stepper will count up to 15 but it doesn't seem to reset when it goes to the next player."
The bonus countdown was working fine when you acquired the machine and you haven't taken the bonus unit apart for servicing?
Check the "Zero Pos. Bonus Unit" M/B switch on the unit.
Quoted from DaMoib:"It turned out to be the switch on the N relay it had a small gap and I'm guessing that it was close enough that it was making contact with vibration. I opened the gap a little and I'm able to get 2 players now. Thanks so much for your help. My next challenge is the scoring the bonus value on the play field will stop at 6000 and the bonus stepper will count up to 15 but it doesn't seem to reset when it goes to the next player."
The bonus countdown was working fine when you acquired the machine and you haven't taken the bonus unit apart for servicing?
Check the "Zero Pos. Bonus Unit" M/B switch on the unit.
yes it was working fine but, it seems the more I turn it on the more things are going wrong with it.
I checked the M/B switch and it seem fine. I was looking at the schematics and again I'm still trying to figure out how to understand them, is the bonus stepper located on 11 in the schematics. As I mentioned the stepper will go up (0-15) but doesn't seem to reset and give you the points. It will just stay in that position for the rest of the game for both players.
So a new ball kicks out even if there is bonus to be awarded for the previous ball?
If the bonus stepper has non-zero bonus, the M/B switch on the stepper (see schematic) should award bonus (Q relay) until it reaches zero, at which point the M/B changes and allows a new ball to be kicked out (O relay)
Zero Pos Bonus Switch (resized).jpgQuoted from DaMoib:So a new ball kicks out even if there is bonus to be awarded for the previous ball?
If the bonus stepper has non-zero bonus, the M/B switch on the stepper (see schematic) should award bonus (Q relay) until it reaches zero, at which point the M/B changes and allows a new ball to be kicked out (O relay)
[quoted image]
I was looking at the stepper unit and noticed the wire that is connected to the outside where the snowshoe goes in was hanging on by two wire strands, so I need to resolder the wire.
That frayed wire is most likely associated with the bonus display lights.
For your bonus countdown issue, it's all about that make/break switch. So you've definitely identified that M/B switch (with MAR+YEL, BLue and BRown wires), watched the interaction of that switch with the post that moves it. With power off, you can add bonus manually and then subtract it, monitoring that switch all the while?
Do you have a multimeter? Jumper wires?
Quoted from DaMoib:That frayed wire is most likely associated with the bonus display lights.
For your bonus countdown issue, it's all about that make/break switch. So you've definitely identified that M/B switch (with MAR+YEL, BLue and BRown wires), watched the interaction of that switch with the post that moves it. With power off, you can add bonus manually and then subtract it, monitoring that switch all the while?
Do you have a multimeter? Jumper wires?
I do have a multimeter and jumper wires. If that wire is just associated with the lights I'll fix that later. I was thinking it had something to do with the bonus because when I noticed this the bonus stepper would not reset it just kept going I needed to shut the machine off to make it stop.
I did check the m/B switch again and it looks like they are opening and closing as they should.
file-523 (resized).jpegfile-532 (resized).jpegQuoted from Bob59:I do have a multimeter and jumper wires. If that wire is just associated with the lights I'll fix that later. I was thinking it had something to do with the bonus because when I noticed this the bonus stepper would not reset it just kept going I needed to shut the machine off to make it stop.
I did check the m/B switch again and it looks like they are opening and closing as they should.
[quoted image][quoted image]
Nice, clean, bonus unit! The rotor and rivet plate can also carry some extra ball/special/points features, but it shouldn't affect the countdown.
At what point did the bonus stepper start failing to reset? Is that a new issue?
I'm confused why the M/B switch is allowing the ball to kick out when the O relay path portion of the switch should be open at this point. If it is shorted somehow, it *will* kick the ball out though. You should measure the resistance of each switch path. With the power off, measure the resistance of both legs of the M/B switch when there is zero bonus on the unit and when there is non-zero bonus. Closed should generally measure 0.2 ohms or less, open will usually be more than 2-5 ohms (depending on the resistance of other sneak paths, thru coils, etc.). Also look closely at the solder tabs on that switch when you are taking the measurements, no shorts there?
Another thing you could do is to observe the actions of the Q and O relays during an active game. With the playfield up and a game started, rack up some bonus and then close the ball return switch - does Q move at all or does O fire immediately?
Also wondering if that post on the gear should be insulated from the switch, with some insulation on the post or some fish paper on the switch...
Does anyone else have an opinion or, better yet, a pic of this area?
Edit: I've found a pic of a Big Brave bonus unit, it looks like there is something on the post mounted on the gear? (ignore the arrow, it was for a different problem)
bonusunitswitch (resized).jpeg
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/game-resets-when-i-add-a-2nd-player?hl=damoib and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
Moreno Valley, CA