The gap between any two subjective terms is vast. You will never pin this issue down.

He is saying one or the other. Fully restored and shopped do not belong in the same description.

True they are subjective as hell, but even with that there's a big difference betwixed shopped & restored.

Oh, I getcha. Specifically in the Pinside Market. I'm with you now...took me a minute.

+1. Was just thinking there needed to be clarification on this as well.

Fully restored typically means new cabinet art and a flawless playfield (could be repro and/or could be touched up & clear coated)
Fully/recently shopped means original playfield, taken down, cleaned/Novus, waxed and original bits put back together.

Both mean the game should be 100% functional with no errors, 100% DMD, etc.

No doubt that "fully restored" is more open to argument. Fully shopped should be able to get a bit more agreement as to what it means to us Pinheads.

While nothing can take the place of a thorough detailed listing, what about something a bit more uniform and filterable when listing games:

[ ] NIB [ ] Home Use Only (believed) [ ] Home Use Only (documented)

[ ] Fully Restored » [ ] Clear-Coated Playfield [ ] New cabinet artwork

[ ] Recently “Shopped” (playfield cleaned & waxed, new rubbers, new balls)

[ ] Original Playfield [ ] Reproduction Playfield

Overall Condition: [ ] 1- Collector Quality [ ] 2 - Very Good [ ] 3 - Average [ ] 4 - Fair [ ] 5 - Poor

Obviously the 'overall condition' is subjective, however, we could work on defining each of the 5 levels with examples and explanations.

I have a hard time seeing people coming together on the definitions. Particular, buyers vs sellers.

Without independent third party appraisals, I just don't see it happening. And our hobby/business/insanity is too niche to have any such thing as independent third party appraisals.

Well, at least I'm trying...
Anyone else willing to contribute with a bias toward optimism? Or do we all just give up right out of the gate?

That is why I like bstyles approach, where you can select any that apply. It does make it a bit more specific and a tiny bit more objective.

Terms used mean nothing!!
Know the seller know what your looking for and talk.

Have you seen that recent video clip.

Shopped means cleaning with a garden hose.

As well HUO (he has a receipt as original owner) but the owner knows nothing of repairs or matinance. So glass has never been off in ten years. Except to wipe down pf with Windex. It is likely in very nice shape. But asume nothing.

If someone posts recently shopped. Assume nothing. If your really interested ask them what it means, is anything really set in stone. I have standards but yours may be totally different.
If it is listed as shopped but it is not 100% playing perfect with flippers fully rebuilt. Well then red flags should be going off in your head. Remember the hose.

Buying from a know collector or business means a lot. A good rep should demand more money and likewise the other way.
Buying from a CL flipper and you can get a buffed original ball and painted original legs that should be chrome and the display being out is likely a fuse.

So CNkay, how would you expand on or change my previous checklist? The sarcasm is wonderful, and fitting for pinside, but seriously, anything constructive to offer?

Don't worry..... reputation/rankings are coming to the marketplace..... stay tuned......

What he said...

bstyles suggestion is a positive improvement, because it features objective selections that help inform buyers, and certain objective measures are less open to interpretation....example: reproduction playfield....don't forget to include "playfield overlay".

So CNKay and jfesler - because you doubt there can be consensus and conformity, y'all want to just leave it the way it is then?

Am I to assume that you like the one choice now that combines "Fully Restored/Shopped" into a single choice?

Here's the deal... my suggestion, take it or leave it, at least broke it down further.

Still haven't seen any positive contributions form you folks ....crickets chirping... Just some bashing of an attempt at betting the system....

Contribute to the solution or get out of the way.

Shit, hadn't even though of playfield overlay.... guess I'd just assume that belongs in the 4 or 5 condition rating.

I wouldn't mind seeing selections such as "raised inserts......chipped/broken plastics.....burnt/charred connector...ball launch wear.....wear near flipper buttons....heck the more detail that can be included in the listing up front, the better.
It doesn't substitute for a good, honest conversation, but it might help. It has been my experience that the more detail I get from a seller (good or bad) on the front end, the better the transaction. And stating the issues with a game up front really doesn't discourage my interest, it just helps me adjust/align my expectations.

This is a big one for me. Like having an STD, that really needs to be disclosed. I might still want to dance with you, but it's only fair to let me know up front.

So.. let's say you come up with .. lets call it "consensus" on the terms. Mostly by yelling at anyone with a differing opinion. Let's just say, for sake of argument, that Pinside, Ebay, Craigslist all use your new form. Would you buy a machine site unseen based on how that form is filled out?

Why not?

I'm asking this with all seriousness as I wonder what you consider success to be with this thread; and if you think that particular success to be possible.

Feel free to ignore me if I get you too upset, and you'd rather not see me post. Pinside makes that easy

I agree that this needs to change. I've purchased a handful of "restored" pins, only two of which would meet my definition of the word (totally rebuilt; like new). The others had certainly been shopped, and probably a bit more, but I couldn't say with a straight face and a clear conscience that they were restored.

Sorry no nothing constructive to add or change never really read your comments .

I honestly have looked on market place about once or twice.

I did not realize that was the conversation.

I have purchased a couple games sight unseen as well as an eBay purchase, Mr Pinball, shows, friends word of mouth. Some 12hr drives somr real local. The market. No so sorry.

To me, the 'form' as we're calling it for the sake of this discussion, is more for searching / filtering.

IMO, nothing would replace reading the description nor carefully reviewing hi-res photos. However, since my time is the most valuable intangible thing I have, I want to be able to narrow down what I'm looking for as quickly as possible. Don't you?

Yes, I've bought machines from across the country, based on photos and descriptions -- without putting my hands on them.

And I really don't care about eBay or Craiglist for the sake of this discussion. I'm posting to Pinside because I am trying to help Pipnside.

Corrosion, moisture damage, insert wear, cabinet damage, translite damage, board hacks .... yes the list of what should be disclosed goes on.

However, you're not going to catch it all. I bought a TZ a long time ago, remotely, after asking several times if there were any signs of water/moisture damage to the bottom of the cabinet. He insisted there were no stains.

After receiving the game and finding the entire bottom of the cabinet inside and out paint black, I see how the slimball was able to make the representation he did.

Not going to fix that with a checklist form -- this is why pictures are a requirement of any listing.

Clear definition of each and proper use should cause separation of the two