(Topic ID: 216341)

Gamatron Resurrection

By zacaj

5 years ago


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  • Latest reply 66 days ago by robm
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#1 5 years ago

Despite my DM project from last year's pinfest not really being complete yet, I picked up another inadvisable project at this year's pinfest: a Gamatron

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Unloading it I already ran into problems, as the cabinet (originally a Lost World before Gamatron conversion) was in bad shape, with half the bottom falling out:
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I took out the playfield and cleaned out the inside of the cabinet, then glued the bottom back into place.

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Taking the playfield out wasn't as easy as expected, as some of the wires were spliced into the cabinet wiring harness. I just pulled them apart for now (they were just twisted together without even wire nuts), but they (and many more spliced and electrical taped wires) will need to be investigated

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There's enough hackery going on here that I don't feel confident even plugging the rectifier board in to test it as is. I think I'll start by comparing all the wiring with the stock wiring in the Lost World schematics, and hopefully I can identify any specific modifications that were part of the gamatron instructions (thankfully available on ipdb), and attempt to clean them up while reversing anything else I can find.

When I originally read about Gamatron the conversion sounded like a really cool idea. A drop in daughterboard (the PSM) basically containing a stern sound board and all the MPU-200 specific circuitry so you could just plug it into the CPU socket of any bally/stern game to upgrade it as necessary? But reading the installation instructions it becomes clear that the conversion isn't that clean. Besides from the CPU socket, you also need to remove the roms and CMOS ram (which I expected), as well as clip the output pin of the clock generator chip (as MPU-200 uses a faster clock than ballys do), and run a single wire connector from the PSM to the J5 diagnostic connector on the MPU to send that new faster clock back into it.

Splicing the 5+12V from the MPU connector to send to the PSM also makes sense in retrospect, but then you get to things like shifting all the wires in the display connector over one place to enable 'seven digit' scoring, with a fake 0 cutout and an added #44 lamp to light it. Curious to see how that will look in action.

It'd be nice to find a new cabinet, as this one is pretty beat up. The original conversion called for painting the whole cabinet black, then applying some stickers:
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Sadly they seem to have fallen off one side:
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I'll scan them in and hopefully I can get some more made. At that point taking any donor cab and converting it should be pretty simple.

The game came complete with all boards, but the MPU and driver were just sitting loose for some reason. MPU had some mild corrosion, and battery had already been removed (the PSM has a build in memory capacitor stock, which is cool). On the bench, it booted just fine once I replaced a bad cmos ram, but that won't be needed anyway since those chips are located on the PSM board anyway. So why was one in there? Some rom chips were also installed, which made me suspect these were just some random boards thrown in by the seller or someone down the line, but when I checked the roms, it turned out they were from Lost World! Probably the original MPU board pre-conversion, or some weird coincidence? So where'd the converted MPU go? I'll have to re-convert this one, but luckily it does boot, so that's less trouble to deal with. The PSM also looks to be in okay condition (thanks to that memory cap), but the schematics on it are sparse (and hand drawn), so troubleshooting any problems with it will be interesting.

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One problem has presented itself already: the 40-pin connector thing that plugs into the CPU socket has a broken pin

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Looks to be pin 21, the R/W pin on the CPU, so sadly an important one. Not sure if I'll be able to find a replacement for this weird connector. Not sure what to even call it to try to find one, but maybe GPE can save me. If not I'll just have to run a separate wire I guess...

#2 5 years ago

Went through all the connectors today, comparing with Lost World schematic. Besides from the one splicing of the playfield and cab wiring together that I still need to figure out, all the wiring matched the manual + Gamatron modifications. On the other hand most of the cabinet connectors seemed to have been cut off and then another connector from another game spliced on, every single wire twisted together and wrapped in electrical tape. Not sure why they did that, but it'll be easy enough to put in a new connector before the twists and clean it up. All the loose wires in the bottom left look to have been cut out of the connector for the controlled lamps on the insert panel, probably from adjusting the wiring to use the right pins for a different game. Not sure how well this was done, but for now I will just leave this connector disconnected.

Although most connectors will need re-doing, the J2 connector on the rectifier board from the power switch was fine, so I plugged it in an tested the rectifier board, which worked fine, all voltages as expected. The Gamatron manual notes a change to the jumpering of the transformer to make the coils stronger that looks like it's just high tapping, so I will need to check the wiring of this transformer and see if it has been high tapped, and then decide whether I want it to be or not.

I also pulled the PSM to give it a look over, and everything looked clean. I pulled the CPU that was already in it and replaced it with a known good one, leaving the 6116 RAM (since I don't have any replacements or board to test it in) and 2764 rom (since the game will test that itself). I then removed the 5101 U8 rom, ram chips, and cpu from the -35 MPU, and desoldered pin 10 of U16 to prevent the 500MHz clock from reaching the rest of the chips. I plugged in the 40-pin dip connector (minus pin 21), and ran an alligator clip between the R/W signals on each board to make up for the broken pin, but when I powered up the board it stopped with the led on after the second flash, indicating a ram failure. I replaced U7 with a known good chip (despite that the first chip had passed Lost World's self test fine), but that didn't make any difference. Since the rom test passed but ram failed, I figured something was still wrong with my R/W jumper causing the CPU to fail to write to ram (even though it could read fine), and went through triple checking things before realizing that I'd looked at the wrong pin on the schematics. Pin 21 of the CPU isn't R/W, it's just ground, which is already connected via some of the connector splicing, so my broken dip cable is fine. Removing my jumper, the board booted successfully, so it seems they're good to go.

#3 5 years ago

Challenging project. Following...

#4 5 years ago

Man, im lucky that i found the spanish Segasa version of Gamatron, it had atleast real connectors that was easy fixable instead of that blue thing you show us LOL

#5 5 years ago
Quoted from Luzur:

Man, im lucky that i found the spanish Segasa version of Gamatron, it had atleast real connectors that was easy fixable instead of that blue thing you show us LOL

Any idea how the rules compare? Does it still run on bally boards?

#6 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Any idea how the rules compare? Does it still run on bally boards?

No, it got its own dedicated boards and cab, made by Segasa, so its all marked in spanish with spanish manual and schematics.

But, Chosen_S here on pinside remade a Pinstar Gamatron, he could guide you better then me.

Also, i give you the Pinstar version of the scorecards i made.

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#7 5 years ago

Even all the mechs are different, dang. I'd be so cool to get two of these set up next to each other!

#8 5 years ago

Taking a look at the bottom of the playfield to try and map out the solenoids, I noticed these cool flipper mechs with plastic bases. I always like seeing what weird stuff Stern managed to make out of plastic, seems this was the next step after pop bumper rings.

Weirder though is the double EOS switch. Originally I thought it might be lane change or something, but both of them are NC and wired in parallel. Seems like a horrible idea reliability wise, but hard to imagine an op going to all the work of wiring them together with longer screws. Will need to investigate how this was originally.

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#9 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Taking a look at the bottom of the playfield to try and map out the solenoids, I noticed these cool flipper mechs with plastic bases. I always like seeing what weird stuff Stern managed to make out of plastic, seems this was the next step after pop bumper rings.
Weirder though is the double EOS switch. Originally I thought it might be lane change or something, but both of them are NC and wired in parallel. Seems like a horrible idea reliability wise, but hard to imagine an op going to all the work of wiring them together with longer screws. Will need to investigate how this was originally.

My gamatron is the same way if I remember right. I think they did it to make sure the flippers are high powered even after the EOS start to get hammered. The plastic mechs seem like a bad idea, but they hold up and perform well for me.

The MPU software is a match for F2K, so if all else fails you should be able to use a F2k wiring diagrams. Wire colors might not match up, but you can at least figure out what controls what.

Since the MPU runs F2K software, you can put a MPU200 and SB300 sound board in these games and it will play just like the daughter board. I did that because the daughter board will not work with NVRAM. I havent looked exactly but I think they ground the 6116 RAM's /CE so FM16W08 will not play nice.

Gamatron is awesome game! Love mine. I think it might be better than F2K, but i could be bias.

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

My gamatron is the same way if I remember right. I think they did it to make sure the flippers are high powered even after the EOS start to get hammered. The plastic mechs seem like a bad idea, but they hold up and perform well for me.

Do you think replacing them with a single new EOS would be fine, or should I stick with the 2? These look hammered... They do seem really concerned about the game playing stupid fast though. 3" levelers, high tapped, extra EOS, new cab switches, giant diodes....

That reminds me, I'm still trying to figure out the flipper wiring on the SDB. The manual (step 13) says to do something with some wires coming from the playfield, I think from the flippers, and a few other things (originally self test return and coin lockout?) and swapping wires with J2 that I can't quite follow. My game has these as just bare wires twisted into the cabinet harness, it almost seems like they're bypassing the flipper relay. Do you know anything about how it's wired on yours?

#11 5 years ago

Looks like a project I would take on.

Those connectors are getting rare, but are still available:

ebay.com link: Connector 40 Pin Dip to Ribbon

The tough part will be getting it crimped on correctly. IIRC, they used special dies to keep everything aligned while crimping. And you're making 40 IDC connections all at once, so it take considerable force applied evenly.

You'd be better off (and a good bit lucky) to find a cable already made.

They were used a lot in video game conversions where the cpu was removed and plugged into a new board that contained the game roms. The new board was then connected to the original board through the original cpu socket.

Best of luck!!

#12 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Do you think replacing them with a single new EOS would be fine, or should I stick with the 2? These look hammered... They do seem really concerned about the game playing stupid fast though. 3" levelers, high tapped, extra EOS, new cab switches, giant diodes....
That reminds me, I'm still trying to figure out the flipper wiring on the SDB. The manual (step 13) says to do something with some wires coming from the playfield, I think from the flippers, and a few other things (originally self test return and coin lockout?) and swapping wires with J2 that I can't quite follow. My game has these as just bare wires twisted into the cabinet harness, it almost seems like they're bypassing the flipper relay. Do you know anything about how it's wired on yours?

I think you are looking at the description for wiring the large drop target bank coil. They use the GI ground return and +43v from flippers to power to fire drop target reset bank. A relay toggled by a SDB transistor completes the circuit to fire the reset coil.

I found this out because I put a switch mode power supply in mine to power the GI for LEDs (no 120hz flicker or dim outs when the flippers fire) and the 5 bank drop target stopped working because the switch mode power supply has isolated return not at earth ground potential. Glad I didnt blow up the switcher.

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I think you are looking at the description for wiring the large drop target bank coil. They use the GI ground return and +43v from flippers to power to fire drop target reset bank. A relay toggled by a SDB transistor completes the circuit to fire the reset coil.
I found this out because I put a switch mode power supply in mine to power the GI for LEDs (no 120hz flicker or dim outs when the flippers fire) and the 5 bank drop target stopped working because the switch mode power supply has isolated return not at earth ground potential. Glad I didnt blow up the switcher.

I guess my confusion is, it sounds like they want me to take those four wires that were in the original game's J2 connector and replace them with ones from the playfield harness, but the playfield already has 2 15-pin connectors, one of which matches the keying and wiring I'd expect for J2, including wires matching all the colors and positions specified in the manual, but then there's also another set of those four wires just loose? There's no other J2 from the original game to insert them into either. I think usually J2 would be the cabinet solenoids and J5 the playfield, but there's no cabinet solenoids in this game left, and instead (judging by the F2k schematics) it just uses them all for playfield coils

#14 5 years ago

Went to reinstall the tested MPU + PSM in the head, and realized that the reason the boards were loose in the bottom when I got the game is because there are no mounting plates for it? IMG_20180509_190033 (resized).jpgIMG_20180509_190033 (resized).jpg

Also checked out the wiring for the speaker. The schematics for the sound section of the PSM on IPDB are too blurry to read, but they seem to match the schematics for the sound board in F2K, so based off that I confirmed that two of the wires were going to a volume potentiometer in the cabinet, but strangely the other two wires which should have gone to the speaker.... also went to another, larger potentiometer?

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The game also is missing its stock speaker, and had a random 6x3 car speaker rolling around in the cab instead, but not wired into anything.

Began tearing down the playfield for cleaning:
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The ball lock area is a nightmare, absolutely horrible design. Especially this plastic, which might be the worst designed plastic I have ever seen:
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Can't believe the thing isn't broken.

Will need to order new lane guides for the top lanes, they're all smashed and cracked for some reason.

#15 5 years ago

Tore down, cleaned, shopped, and rebuild the playfield. Was dirtier than I expected.

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While putting new rubbers, I noticed there was a lot of play in the flippers, which I hadn't examined yet. I disassembled one, and found that the links were very worn. Not a big deal, I'll just order new plungers+links. Then I noticed the first real problem, which is that this fancy plastic base is also the bushing. There's no removable part, and these are very worn, probably beyond the point of being enjoyably playable. There's actually two small brass washers under the flipper bat on top of the 'bushing' top to give it space to not drag the playfield, although I don't know if those are stock or were added by the operator as the top of the bushing got worn down.

Further investigation revealed that the coil stop is not like any other coil stops available, and thus is also not replaceable (not a big deal though, it looks to still be in good shape), however the plungers are also 1/4" shorter than the replacements I have on hand. I don't know of a different length ever being used, so these may also be specific to this new flipper design? I double checked the flipper throw however, and it's the same on 2nd gen Stern flippers as on these '3rd' generation ones. It looks like I may need to order two complete new mechs though, as these don't look like they'll be salvageable, which is too bad.

Another weird post-stern oddity:
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How the hell do I get this pop bumper cap off? There's no screws! I tried squeezing it various ways like a gottlieb, but nothing seemed to work. Maybe I'll get lucky and the light will still work... The plastic pop bumper ring is luckily still intact, since those aren't available anywhere either, although they've still got the annoying design where you can't replace the yoke

#16 5 years ago

Ive seen some popbumper caps being glued in place, could be the same for you, maybe?

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from Luzur:

Ive seen some popbumper caps being glued in place, could be the same for you, maybe?

Doesn't seem like it. It has some wiggle to it. Unless the entire body is loose... There might be some kind of tab, but I can't see it well enough to figure out how to release it. And can't remove the assembly to get a better look because the cap is on it.

#18 5 years ago

Maybe its screwed from below? You never know with these kit stuff.

#19 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Tore down, cleaned, shopped, and rebuild the playfield. Was dirtier than I expected.

While putting new rubbers, I noticed there was a lot of play in the flippers, which I hadn't examined yet. I disassembled one, and found that the links were very worn. Not a big deal, I'll just order new plungers+links. Then I noticed the first real problem, which is that this fancy plastic base is also the bushing. There's no removable part, and these are very worn, probably beyond the point of being enjoyably playable. There's actually two small brass washers under the flipper bat on top of the 'bushing' top to give it space to not drag the playfield, although I don't know if those are stock or were added by the operator as the top of the bushing got worn down.
Further investigation revealed that the coil stop is not like any other coil stops available, and thus is also not replaceable (not a big deal though, it looks to still be in good shape), however the plungers are also 1/4" shorter than the replacements I have on hand. I don't know of a different length ever being used, so these may also be specific to this new flipper design? I double checked the flipper throw however, and it's the same on 2nd gen Stern flippers as on these '3rd' generation ones. It looks like I may need to order two complete new mechs though, as these don't look like they'll be salvageable, which is too bad.
Another weird post-stern oddity:

How the hell do I get this pop bumper cap off? There's no screws! I tried squeezing it various ways like a gottlieb, but nothing seemed to work. Maybe I'll get lucky and the light will still work... The plastic pop bumper ring is luckily still intact, since those aren't available anywhere either, although they've still got the annoying design where you can't replace the yoke

Pull hard. It's held in by press fit ball shape tabs if I remember right.

Flipper pics

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#20 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Taking a look at the bottom of the playfield to try and map out the solenoids, I noticed these cool flipper mechs with plastic bases. I always like seeing what weird stuff Stern managed to make out of plastic, seems this was the next step after pop bumper rings.

These were the same mechs used in Wico's Af-Tor so they we're probably made by Wico.

#21 5 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

My gamatron is the same way if I remember right. I think they did it to make sure the flippers are high powered even after the EOS start to get hammered. The plastic mechs seem like a bad idea, but they hold up and perform well for me.
The MPU software is a match for F2K, so if all else fails you should be able to use a F2k wiring diagrams. Wire colors might not match up, but you can at least figure out what controls what.
Since the MPU runs F2K software, you can put a MPU200 and SB300 sound board in these games and it will play just like the daughter board. I did that because the daughter board will not work with NVRAM. I havent looked exactly but I think they ground the 6116 RAM's /CE so FM16W08 will not play nice.
Gamatron is awesome game! Love mine. I think it might be better than F2K, but i could be bias.

It shares the same ROMs with F2K, but the sound circuitry is different so it doesn't sound like a F2K. I was going to use the MPU200 / SB300 configuration for mine, but I like the sound of the Pinstar board so much better that I'm trying to source one for my build.

#22 5 years ago

Following

#23 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

It shares the same ROMs with F2K, but the sound circuitry is different so it doesn't sound like a F2K. I was going to use the MPU200 / SB300 configuration for mine, but I like the sound of the Pinstar board so much better that I'm trying to source one for my build.

'Build'? Do you have just the PF or?

Curious that the sound is different, I wonder what the difference is... The schematics on ipdb are very hard to read, it'd be great to have a better scan. If I did it might be worth trying to recreate the full schematics (the non-sound part seems very simple) and then you could get a new board made or something...

#24 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

It shares the same ROMs with F2K, but the sound circuitry is different so it doesn't sound like a F2K. I was going to use the MPU200 / SB300 configuration for mine, but I like the sound of the Pinstar board so much better that I'm trying to source one for my build.

Gamatron by Pinstar's daughter card has a 100% identical to SB300 sound circuit on it. It sounds the same as a stock MPU200 set for F2K + SB300. Mine sounded no different after switching from the daughter card to a MPU+ sb300.

The SB300 is highly sensitive to the CPU's clock speed and can change from board to board.

#25 5 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

These were the same mechs used in Wico's Af-Tor so they we're probably made by Wico.

Ah, they do seem to look the same to the ones on Af-Tor on IPDB. Sadly I can't seem to find any flipper parts for it either...

#26 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Another weird post-stern oddity:

How the hell do I get this pop bumper cap off? There's no screws! I tried squeezing it various ways like a gottlieb, but nothing seemed to work. Maybe I'll get lucky and the light will still work... The plastic pop bumper ring is luckily still intact, since those aren't available anywhere either, although they've still got the annoying design where you can't replace the yoke

These are identical to the pops used in Af-Tor as well. They probably have a different coil stop than Stern used.

Interestingly, I bought a set of NOS plastic pops that were claimed to be for Gamatron. They have stickers with Wico part numbers on them and non-Stern coil stops like I would expect, but have the standard screw on red caps.

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Gamatron by Pinstar's daughter card has a 100% identical to SB300 sound circuit on it. It sounds the same as a stock MPU200 set for F2K + SB300. Mine sounded no different after switching from the daughter card to a MPU+ sb300.
The SB300 is highly sensitive to the CPU's clock speed and can change from board to board.

Interesting. Gamatron and F2K were side by side at TFP this year. They didn't sound the same so I guess I have some research to do.

#28 5 years ago

Another interesting oddity: noticed one of the three slingshot coils was different than the others (two are original pinstar). The third was a Wico replacement. Didn't think anything of it at first until I recognized the winding count: it's a williams slingshot coil! Eg, 25V, not 50V. That explains why the kicker arm on that side was broken off... Looked up the right coil (thankfully the windings are specified in the manual), expecting it to be a standard bally sling coil I could just steal from a parts PF I've got, but it's actually weaker than that. Williams was about 5ohm, bally 10, gamatron 15. I would have expected, if anything, that it'd be a bit stronger, like the flipper coils are.

#29 5 years ago

Here is the pop bumper apart.

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#30 5 years ago

Fixed up all the connectors. Resolved that the wires that were originally tied together between cabinet and playfield harness probably were supposed to be like that and added a connector for them, as well as the spot where the game over, highscore, etc lights (cabinet) go into one of the playfield lamp connectors. Older games had one connector for cabinet and one for playfield, but over time more and more things were needed on the PF, so those connectors now go there instead. Still can't understand the instructions in the manual, but this way the wiring makes sense.

Put the included driver board in and powered it up to test the voltages. Measured 4V at the 5V and 10V at the 12V (HV was fine), so it looks like something is pulling it down. Didn't have any LM323s on hand to try rebuilding (though I guess ti could have just been a bad capacitor), so I swapped in a new Alltek board. All voltages now checked out, though I'm a bit annoyed that the fancy Alltek board has its own dedicated CPU to monitor things but couldn't be bothered with a pot to adjust the HV level. It seems to be putting out 182V, while I prefer to keep mine around 170...

Hooked up the MPU and it booted up fine, so I plugged in the player 1 display as well, turned it on again. Led was on solid. Rebooted a few more times, stayed solid. Weird. Put MPU back on the bench, booted up just fine. Put it back in the game, worked, got digits on P1 display. Rebooted, led was solid. Checked voltages, all fine. Very confused now. Replaced sockets that connect PSM and MPU together, replaced J4 header, same symptoms. First boot works fine, after that it won't boot until you let it sit for a while. Swapped in a regular MPU from another game, it boots fine every time. Put Gamatron MPU+PSM in the other game, boots fine every time. Swapped Alltek driver from Gamatron to other game and other game's (rebuilt) driver into Gamatron, now Gamatron boots fine? Grrrr.

#31 5 years ago

Very cool looking game.

#32 5 years ago

Got creative not wanting to leave it sitting for a while while I wait for MPU mounting rails:
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After that, I plugged in all the connectors and booted up again, getting to attract mode. Lots of lamps out of course. The self test switch worked, which means my added connector is probably right. All coils fire in coil test. My credit display isn't showing any digits for some reason despite the display being good. Amusingly, the coil and switch numbers are missing the first digit (since it's just a light up zero). Great thinking there...

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Next will need to wire up the speaker and track some balls down

#33 5 years ago

Connected up a spare speaker and sounds work fine. Installed a replacement kicker for the right slingshot and some MPU rails a fellow pinsider sent me. With some tweaking of switches and a lot of new lamps it was up and running! Surprisingly all the lamp sockets worked, which was nice. Credit display turned out to be a bad pin in the connector for the 5V.

Need to track down some more displays and order some parts to rebuild whatever parts of the flippers I can (probably just sleeves and links), plus EOS and cabinet switches, and then look into getting new stickers made for the side.

15271209324221899546020 (resized).jpg15271209324221899546020 (resized).jpg

#34 5 years ago

It. Is. Alive. (insert maniacal laugh here)

#35 5 years ago

Superb machine. It has come a long way thanks to your Tender Love and Care.

Quite rare, too.

Yves

10 months later
#36 5 years ago

Dragging up this old baddie, I read through the write up looking for a fix to my Gamatron

How’s the build going? I’m guessing you’re destroying the giant robot .

Mine just died suddenly the other day while a friend was playing, looks like I’m diving in very soon to fix things. I’ve got great voltages , but the red light locks on as soon as I boot, it’s been 1.5 years since I’ve cracked into an mpu 200. Of course I don’t know if it’s the psm board or the mpu

#37 5 years ago

Gamatron has been doing well. I put it at a local barcade and some months it out earns some modern Sterns. Last month it lost all its memory for some reason, which seems like it shouldn't be possible given the memory cap on the psm

#38 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Gamatron has been doing well. I put it at a local barcade and some months it out earns some modern Sterns. Last month it lost all its memory for some reason, which seems like it shouldn't be possible given the memory cap on the psm

Did you put a new memory cap on?, I never did and I probably should, mine loses memory if I don’t play it for a week or two. Of course right now mine is dead and I don’t know if it’s ram or a socket or who knows.

#39 5 years ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

Did you put a new memory cap on?, I never did and I probably should, mine loses memory if I don’t play it for a week or two. Of course right now mine is dead and I don’t know if it’s ram or a socket or who knows.

No, didn't think of that. This is on every day though so I don't think it should be an issue?

#40 5 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

No, didn't think of that. This is on every day though so I don't think it should be an issue?

I haven’t replaced mine either, but we both should. Those capacitors were installed on the board in 1986 . Probably should replace all the capacitors on that PSN board now that I think of it

4 years later
#41 66 days ago

.
wrong thread

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