(Topic ID: 126107)

Future spa/ Relay issue


By Wariodolby

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 35 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Wariodolby
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 4 years ago

Having problems with 1979 Bally Future Spa flipper relay.
Ok I think I've tried everything to get the Flipper Relay to activate when starting a game .

Changed Q15 resistor -test good
Re pinned all connectors on Driver board but not the mpu board.
The Relay fires when touched with Ground wire from cab .
The relay does NOT fire in test Mode.
I have switched the 6821 pia chips.
Only reseated the 6800 chip.
Both flippers work when I keep the ground wire held on q15 and I can see and hear relay fireand hold.
Game boots with all 7 flashes and goes into attract mode.
All other solenoids work when starting a game and all but Relay fire in test .

Finally ordered a new Relay still waiting to arrive.
Just hoping for more info that I can do to get these
Flippers working!

Thanks
Mike

#2 4 years ago

Final solution was re flowing all the 6821pia socket pins then it worked .

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#3 4 years ago

Did you resolder the relay's solder joints on the solenoid driver board?

Did you replace the diode/resistor pair behind the transistor?

If yes and still not working, then you would want to test the CA3081 and the 74LS154 to make sure they pulse high/low as expected.

#4 4 years ago
Quoted from Xenon75:

Did you resolder the relay's solder joints on the solenoid driver board?
Did you replace the diode/resistor pair behind the transistor?
If yes and still not working, then you would want to test the CA3081 and the 74LS154 to make sure they pulse high/low as expected.

Yes resolded relay.
Yes replace doides

unfortunataly pulsing is not a tool I have or learned to use yet .
Looks like I need to learn something new .

#5 4 years ago

You can use your DMM. From Pinwiki:

"Normally, all sixteen of the decoder output lines are held high (+5vdc). When strobed, the decoder lowers one of it's sixteen output lines, depending on the pattern of the four input signals."

"With no input supplied (strobe is high), the output lines of the decoder are high (+5 vdc). This puts a voltage at the base of Q1 (this transistor is one of seven in the CA3081 transistor array chip). This turns Q1 "on" and the voltage supplied to it's collector via resistor R1 passes through the transistor to ground. At this point, little or no voltage is present at the base of Q2, and Q2 is "off". With Q2 off, the 40vdc at the coil has no place to go, and the coil remains deenergized."

Using the schematic you could determine what line the relay is on. Then with one probe on the correct leg of the chip (don't short two together) and the other on ground you could see if the state changes when running the solenoid test. If it does - then you know the CA3081 is probably bad. If it doesn't then you can suspect the 74LS154 or the PIA

#6 4 years ago

MPU J4 connector. Follow the signal from the PIA to MPU J4 to driver J4 to CA3081 to TIP102

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from Xenon75:

You can use your DMM. From Pinwiki:
"Normally, all sixteen of the decoder output lines are held high (+5vdc). When strobed, the decoder lowers one of it's sixteen output lines, depending on the pattern of the four input signals."
"With no input supplied (strobe is high), the output lines of the decoder are high (+5 vdc). This puts a voltage at the base of Q1 (this transistor is one of seven in the CA3081 transistor array chip). This turns Q1 "on" and the voltage supplied to it's collector via resistor R1 passes through the transistor to ground. At this point, little or no voltage is present at the base of Q2, and Q2 is "off". With Q2 off, the 40vdc at the coil has no place to go, and the coil remains deenergized."
Using the schematic you could determine what line the relay is on. Then with one probe on the correct leg of the chip (don't short two together) and the other on ground you could see if the state changes when running the solenoid test. If it does - then you know the CA3081 is probably bad. If it doesn't then you can suspect the 74LS154 or the PIA

Decoder not used on the flipper relay.

#8 4 years ago

Oh yeah that is right. Thanks Andrew!

#9 4 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Decoder not used on the flipper relay.

So all that info is useless ?

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

MPU J4 connector. Follow the signal from the PIA to MPU J4 to driver J4 to CA3081 to TIP102

Looking for a broken Trace ?

#11 4 years ago

Not useless - now you know how the board works. If the signal never makes it to the CA3081 then yes something wrong with signal path. Could also be one bad output on the PIA. More likely is the input is bad on the CA3081.

#12 4 years ago
Quoted from Xenon75:

Not useless - now you know how the board works. If the signal never makes it to the CA3081 then yes something wrong with signal path. Could also be one bad output on the PIA. More likely is the input is bad on the CA3081.

Useless was the wrong word .
This last 30 minutes of work is killing me just can't think of anything else but getting these flippers working

#13 4 years ago

Did the game ever work, or did you buy it broken?

#14 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Did the game ever work, or did you buy it broken?

I bought it broken .
Here's a video I just made if this helps .

#15 4 years ago

Start at MPU J4 Pin 7. During solenoid test. You should see activity there when its turn comes up in solenoid test. If using a DMM. Set it to read a range at 5vdc. Put the DMM on that pin. It should stay at one state (high i think it is, 5v) and then briefly go to the other state (low i think, 0v) during the test when the relay would pull in and click.

If you have activity there. Move to driver board j4 pin8. Should see identical signals here as they are electrically connected via connector wiring.

Looks good there. Move to the base of the TIP102. Should see a pulse there when the flipper relay would pull in during solenoid test.

You most likely have an open signal. Most likely place an open signal is going caused by connector problems at MPU j4 or at driver J4

#16 4 years ago

Is there a test that will isolate the problem to only one board ?

#17 4 years ago
Quoted from Wariodolby:

Is there a test that will isolate the problem to only one board ?

Yes. See my post above =D. If a valid signal leaves the MPU, than the issue on the driver board.

#18 4 years ago

If you had a second working solenoid driver board you could swap. If the fully working board also works in the Future Spa then you know its on the other Solenoid Driver Board.

#19 4 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Yes. See my post above =D. If a valid signal leaves the MPU, than the issue on the driver board.

Awesome post btw .
So here the test made video so you can see if I did it right .

Getting nothing from the MpU board ...if I did the test right .
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=TgavGzWaTDs

#20 4 years ago

I hope I did the test right now it feels like I'm getting somewhere.
Going to pull the mpu board and check traces and resolder pin 8

#21 4 years ago

If you can't fix it, I'll buy it if the backglass is good.

#22 4 years ago
Quoted from cichlid:

If you can't fix it, I'll buy it if the backglass is good.

You can look but can't touch

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#23 4 years ago

How's the playfield?

#24 4 years ago

Playfield is nice .
I haven't even wiped the playfield down yet.
Can you watch the video and confirm I did the test right .Now I'm stuck as to what to do with the mpu fully.

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#25 4 years ago
Quoted from Wariodolby:

Can you watch the video and confirm I did the test right .Now I'm stuck as to what to do with the mpu fully.

I've got the worst phone reception right now.

I'll try that video again in a few.

#26 4 years ago

My future spa got stolen =(. I liked it. Fun to play. Artwork is so bad it is good.

I think i told you the wrong mpu pin at first, i edited my post a couple minutes later. I was squinting at some schematics and got off a pin sorry to waste your time.

Relevant schematic drawings.

flipper relay.jpg
wires.jpg
mpu.jpg

#27 4 years ago

Thanks for the update but I just did the test again on pin 7 and no activity on relay test .
Should I just order new 6821 and 6800 chips ?

#28 4 years ago

Are you able to solder new sockets? Or is that above your pay grade?

It's a hard job without the right tools.....

#29 4 years ago

I'm not afraid to tackle a 40 pin socket ..
But that's what's great about these boards in this machine .
Someone was nicest enough to socket almost all the chips at one point in this pins life

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#30 4 years ago

Now running the solenoid test I noticed the Gate was not working either .
Checked the transistor with ground and the Gate fired and the transistor seems to test good (diode test)
So now it's the Relay and Gate both not working in test mode .
I guess I never noticed the Gate its a very Quite coil that move the Gate.

#31 4 years ago

You could swap the two PIA chips and see if the problem moves.

#32 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

You could swap the two PIA chips and see if the problem moves.

Tried that but Gate and Relay still not working.

#33 4 years ago
Quoted from Wariodolby:

Tried that but Gate and Relay still not working.

I see battery damage in that picture. The PIA socket or trace leading from it could be broken.

The PIA pin associated with U11 PB6 which is pin 16. With continuity beep test on your meter, you can test your IC socket.

#34 4 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I see battery damage in that picture. The PIA socket or trace leading from it could be broken.
The PIA pin associated with U11 PB6 which is pin 16. With continuity beep test on your meter, you can test your IC socket.

Is this the right spot 16th pin ?

image.jpg
#35 4 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I see battery damage in that picture. The PIA socket or trace leading from it could be broken.
The PIA pin associated with U11 PB6 which is pin 16. With continuity beep test on your meter, you can test your IC socket.

Took that idea and ran with it !
Re flowed all socket pins on both 6821pia chips put it back in and Voila the flippers/Relay work.!!
Just want to thank everyone for there fast responses in trying to help me .

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=Sv_EPlGrAD4

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