(Topic ID: 279578)

Future Spa Hardtop Install - Vid's Guide

By vid1900

3 years ago


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  • 82 posts
  • 22 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 months ago by dnaman
  • Topic is favorited by 42 Pinsiders

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There are 82 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 3 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Can you elaborate more on why you don’t want to sand all the art off? For the areas you do sand, what grit are you using?

If you sand all the art off, the bare wood shows through the HT holes.

So even tiny pin or a wire guide leg gets a big, bare hole.

Save yourself a bunch of touch-up time, and just leave the playfield paint alone.

-

I used 120 grit to cut the old finish out, then 220 grit to smooth before the poly was applied.

#52 3 years ago
Quoted from xsvtoys:

I was always so-so on the backglass art, but I like the playfield art a lot. Especially the 2 girls in the upper corners, it is just so damn blatant I can't believe it was allowed on there. Dave Christiansen is my hero.
Thanks for this guide too, this answered a lot of questions I had about these overlays.

It would have been great to have Dave's original backglass drawing. I don't know of another machine where one artist did the playfield and another the backglass.

#53 3 years ago
Quoted from jellikit:

It would have been great to have Dave's original backglass drawing. I don't know of another machine where one artist did the playfield and another the backglass.

Hurricane, Python and Youssi.

Good stuff Vid, thanks for posting, glad to see you back!

#54 3 years ago
Quoted from jaytrem:

Hurricane, Python and Youssi.
Good stuff Vid, thanks for posting, glad to see you back!

Thanks for the info.

#55 3 years ago

The only flaw in this game is the clunky geometry of the right loop. The left loop is so much smoother. Otherwise it’s a gem, although I kind of wish the backglass art style was replicated on the playfield.

#56 3 years ago

Vid welcome back. You were missed.

You mentioned sanding the shooter lane and then applying an oil based polyurethane before the clear coat. What brand oil based polyurethane are you using?

#57 3 years ago
Quoted from Silverstreak02:

You mentioned sanding the shooter lane and then applying an oil based polyurethane before the clear coat. What brand oil based polyurethane are you using?

Minwax darkens nicely with age.

2pac "sits on top" of the wood, whereas the oil poly soaks in and really brings out the grain.

#58 3 years ago

@Pike Pete asked if lamp holders would short out on the drop cage; nope, plenty of room

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#59 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

There were some strange water marks visible in some of the insert windows.
Nothing too crazy, but I wish I would have seen them before I stuck the HT down[quoted image][quoted image]

I’m a bit confused on this one. Are these marks on the underside of the HT? I presume they are not on the top or they could be dealt with after installing. The underside would have the adhesive on it. If you had spotted it before attaching the HT, how would you fix?

I guess you would need to somehow clean that area under the insert to get it nice and clear. It seems the adhesive would be removed by that process, but that should be ok since it’s a small area anyway.

#60 3 years ago
Quoted from xsvtoys:

I’m a bit confused on this one. Are these marks on the underside of the HT?

Yes, they are on the underside.

Quoted from xsvtoys:

The underside would have the adhesive on it.

There are holes cut through the adhesive, so wherever there is an insert, there is no glue.

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Quoted from xsvtoys:

If you had spotted it before attaching the HT, how would you fix?

I wish I would have seen it prior, and I might have a better answer.

Off the top of my head, I'd probably try some Naphtha on a foam wipe (I fear a Q-tip would leave some fuzz behind along the edge of the adhesive)

If they spray a primer on before applying the adhesive, then maybe it's etched into the surface and would have to be polished out?

Or maybe it's some strange condensation from shipping or storage and it would just clean up with distilled water? (although I doubt this, because it was sealed in the factory bag; and it's only on a few inserts)

With the Pandemic, I've got none of these waiting to be installed, so hopefully someone here has an uninstalled HT and can take a closer look.

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#61 3 years ago

I have a Pinbot waiting to be installed, what do you need to see? I definitely should have cleaned my insert openings on my last Hardtop because there is some cloudiness that I completely missed. I am planning on doing a cleaning just before the peel and stick on the Pinbot.

#62 3 years ago
Quoted from alexmogil:

I have a Pinbot waiting to be installed, what do you need to see? I definitely should have cleaned my insert openings on my last Hardtop because there is some cloudiness that I completely missed.

If you see those spots in the inserts, what solvent (alcohol, naphtha, distilled water) removes them?

Thanks!

#63 3 years ago

Disclaimer: Don't do any of this, it is all at your own risk.

I did some experimentation with a couple different cleaners and found that alcohol tends to clean the underside of the inserts. I tried naphtha and simple green as well as plain old water, and found that alcohol does the trick. In fact, if you look closely it tends to clean off whatever grainy residue is in the clear areas from factory. In both of the below pictures the middle insert has been cleaned with alcohol and a microfiber cloth.

I DO NOT RECCOMEND DOING THIS UNLESS YOU HAVE A SPECIFIC REASON AND I HAVE NO IDEA IF THIS HAS CAUSED LASTING DAMAGE TO THE HARDTOP. SKYPILOT MIGHT COME IN HERE AND DIGITALLY MURDER ME.

It might eat all the paint surrounding the insert. Maybe. Maybe not.

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#64 3 years ago

Seriously don't do that unless you super have to.

#65 3 years ago
Quoted from alexmogil:

I did some experimentation with a couple different cleaners and found that alcohol tends to clean the underside of the inserts.

Great research !!

If it was an insert with printing in the window, I'd be VERY cautious about trying to clean away the haze - in case the alcohol removed or smeared the ink.

8 months later
#66 3 years ago

Following.

#67 3 years ago

Vid does anyone make a hardtop for EM’s

#68 3 years ago
Quoted from Silverstreak02:

Vid does anyone make a hardtop for EM’s

Outside edge.... who makes the Hardtop, has done EMs.

#69 3 years ago
Quoted from Silverstreak02:

Vid does anyone make a hardtop for EM’s

Quoted from Ceckitti:

Outside edge.... who makes the Hardtop, has done EMs.

To date, only one EM, Wizard, has been done. http://www.outsideedgeproducts.com/

1 year later
#70 1 year ago

Hey Vid, great job. I just purchased a Future Spa in really bad condition and will do the hardtop just as you’ve done. Just wondering, why did you not apply 2Pac after the overlay was applied to the playfield? Does that not add an extra layer of protection?

#71 1 year ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The owner gave me the game broken, with mixed rubbers, LEDs and Incan bulbs; just a giant random pile.
One thing I noticed after I installed all his LEDs, was you could no longer read any playfield printing.
All you could see was the bright glare of the inserts and playfield plastics.
It sucked (especially compared to my own, all incandescent FS)
[quoted image]

So cute that dog looking on like that. Paw on the arm.

2 months later
#72 1 year ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The owner gave me the game broken, with mixed rubbers, LEDs and Incan bulbs; just a giant random pile.
One thing I noticed after I installed all his LEDs, was you could no longer read any playfield printing.
All you could see was the bright glare of the inserts and playfield plastics.
It sucked (especially compared to my own, all incandescent FS)
[quoted image]

vid1900 I see in the Time Warp in the background you have the standard rubbers on your banana flippers. How did you get those to stay on the face? I'm assuming you like it better that way than with the yellow boots?

2 months later
#73 1 year ago
Quoted from cnordquist:

vid1900 I see in the Time Warp in the background you have the standard rubbers on your banana flippers. How did you get those to stay on the face? I'm assuming you like it better that way than with the yellow boots?

They are stuck on with contact cement

2 months later
#74 1 year ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Minwax darkens nicely with age.
2pac "sits on top" of the wood, whereas the oil poly soaks in and really brings out the grain.

Hey Vid...

Is there any reason why you can't just apply a stain and then clear over it? Something like this...

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#75 1 year ago
Quoted from sunarf:

Hey Vid...
Is there any reason why you can't just apply a stain and then clear over it? Something like this...[quoted image]

It's harder to match stain, than just using the yellow, oil based poly.

But if you are an experienced wood stainer, then of course stain then clear.

3 months later
#76 1 year ago
Quoted from joshmc:

Hey Vid, great job. I just purchased a Future Spa in really bad condition and will do the hardtop just as you’ve done. Just wondering, why did you not apply 2Pac after the overlay was applied to the playfield? Does that not add an extra layer of protection?

The 2pac would not stick to the hardtop.

I don't think the hardtop needs any extra protection.

There are a few in commercial use for several years around my place. Still look fine.

3 weeks later
#77 11 months ago

Hey Vid,

I am just readying to do my first HT and have read through a lot of your posts, thank you for sharing so much detail. If you have time, can you help clarify a few things for me please? I will wrap my questions with what I believe to be are your advice/recommendations but let me know if I am misunderstanding.

From what I can see, you use 120 grit to take down the main, intended parts of a PF, and then finish with 220. The intention is to flatten the PF but not make it a whitewood, while leaving some of the art to reduce the need to re-colour any of the HT holes or areas which are clear, that might be different from the PF being worked on. You can lay the HT over the PF to see these areas and work from there. You use the hair dryer and top/bottom clamp method to lower any inserts which are high. After scraping off the insert art (at 90 degree with a sharp chisel), you can sand the inserts at 220 and if need, a max of 400 (not wet and not too smooth as you need bite for the 2PAC). The trimming of the HT all makes sense as well.

What I am mainly curious about are the type of epoxy (wood repair and insert setting) and and clear that you use and their processes. I often see just 'epoxy' but have seen mention of 'wood epoxy', I have 2 part [P.C. Woody] so I have started using that today to repair any areas.
- What is the epoxy used to secure inserts from the back side?

For the clear, I see oil based polyeurethane used intentionally to add some yellow or age back to the newly sanded areas that remain visible through the HT. Shooter lane, ball orbits on some of the older titles, etc. The yellowing can increase a bit more over time (even with 'non-yellowing', oil poly). It is understood that the oil based poly (water poly is shit - never use) is not as durable/strong as 2PAC but serves the above stated purpose. Poly takes longer to cure (nail test and smell test - if it still smells, then it is not cured) than 2PAC as 2PACS is a chemical reaction/cure but still requires some time (see label(s)). Maybe the nail and smell test also applies to the 2PAC(?)

For the 2PAC application, you have said that too many coats is not necessary and suggest 2-3, which would still be more than some current manufacturers. That the re-application time is dependant on the 2PAC used, but I have read in your examples that 15 minutes in between is common. This would prevent the need for blocking and sanding in between 'coats' but if you were to wait longer than the short reapplication time, you would have to wait possibly 24 hours or so (read directions) and then block, sand and spary (more time and effort instead of just shooting at the 15 min mark 2 or 3 times in succession).

- For this, are you doing a combination of the paint->poly (where required), then sealing with 2PAC on all of your HT installs currently?
- When you do the full PF with 2PAC, do you prep the clear prior to installing the HT? Possibly besides a light block/sand where any 2PAC might have walled or run. I am curious if the recommendation is to not have the full clear too smooth.
- What type of surface is best for the 3M adhesive, or whatever is now used on the HT, to adhere to.

Thanks again!

#78 11 months ago
Quoted from dnaman:

- What is the epoxy used to secure inserts from the back side?

You can use any epoxy, they even make "plastic epoxy" if you believe it somehow holds better.

I've even used the $1 HF epoxy and it worked fine.

Quoted from dnaman:

- For this, are you doing a combination of the paint->poly (where required), then sealing with 2PAC on all of your HT installs currently?

Yes, having the 2pac as the top coat gives a seemless finish that buffs to a mirror shine.

Quoted from dnaman:

- When you do the full PF with 2PAC, do you prep the clear prior to installing the HT? Possibly besides a light block/sand where any 2PAC might have walled or run. I am curious if the recommendation is to not have the full clear too smooth.

I leave it full mirror polish.

You won't ever get a run if you shoot with the playfield on it's back, but if you get a walled up area around an opening, just knock it down flat with sandpaper.

Clean with naphtha, then use a tack-cloth.

Quoted from dnaman:

- What type of surface is best for the 3M adhesive, or whatever is now used on the HT, to adhere to.

Glossy is great.

All those car emblems are attached with 3M VHB, and nothing is exposed to worse conditions than an automobile

#79 11 months ago
Quoted from sunarf:

Hey Vid...
Is there any reason why you can't just apply a stain and then clear over it? Something like this...[quoted image]

Sometimes you have to stain a repair, like on an old EM that has a very darkened wood surface.

But stain does not seal the wood, so you would still need to seal before 2pac.

The poly deepens the color, and seals the wood (especially in the alternating grain of the shooter lane), so it kills 2 birds with one stone.

#80 11 months ago

Thank you for the detailed response vid! I am looking forward to running the the process and learning on this first one.
I will likely have to use a 2K MAX clear as I am not setup with a gun to run 2PAC. I am going to do 3 pins with HTs so I will have to see how that goes with rattle can. I will likely have waste as I am only going to be setup to do one pin at a time and hate to waste a 2K Max can or two but if I am only doing a couple of these, not sure that I should look too far ahead. That said, out of curiosity while I was out yesterday I did see these smaller 'mini' guns at Princess Auto. Much larger than an air brush but smaller than a standard sized spray gun. If I end up doing more clearing or painting, would these work well for a 2PAC? I guess that I would likely need a 'Mini In Line Filter Moisture Trap 1/4"'?

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#81 11 months ago
Quoted from dnaman:

Thank you for the detailed response vid! I am looking forward to running the the process and learning on this first one.
I will likely have to use a 2K MAX clear as I am not setup with a gun to run 2PAC. I am going to do 3 pins with HTs so I will have to see how that goes with rattle can. I will likely have waste as I am only going to be setup to do one pin at a time and hate to waste a 2K Max can or two but if I am only doing a couple of these, not sure that I should look too far ahead. That said, out of curiosity while I was out yesterday I did see these smaller 'mini' guns at Princess Auto. Much larger than an air brush but smaller than a standard sized spray gun. If I end up doing more clearing or painting, would these work well for a 2PAC? I guess that I would likely need a 'Mini In Line Filter Moisture Trap 1/4"'?[quoted image]

You can use a detail gun; but note that a regular size HVLP gun is usually less money.

#82 11 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

You can use a detail gun; but note that a regular size HVLP gun is usually less money.

I will look over the options, thanks Vid.

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