Future Spa
Bally, 1979Ok you glorious, wonderful, obsessive (like me) people, here is a freshly painted underside.
I can just picture it now:
Friend 1, "Did you see Jay's Future Spa?"
Friend 2, "I did! Did you see the underside of his playfield? It's such a smooth grey!"
Friend 1, "Profoundly glorious."
Friend 2, "But what's the toilet paper in the photo for?"
Friend 1, "Best not to ask these questions."
Quoted from jsa:Ok you glorious, wonderful, obsessive (like me) people, here is a freshly painted underside.
[quoted image]
I can just picture it now:
Friend 1, "Did you see Jay's Future Spa?"
Friend 2, "I did! Did you see the underside of his playfield? It's such a smooth grey!"
Friend 1, "Profoundly glorious."
Friend 2, "But what's the toilet paper in the photo for?"
Friend 1, "Best not to ask these questions."
Aww man, you painted the bottom? What you go and do that for??! 
Quoted from radium:Aww man, you painted the bottom? What you go and do that for??!
My son said when he read this, "...to seal in the flavor."
Quoted from jsa:Ok you glorious, wonderful, obsessive (like me) people, here is a freshly painted underside.
[quoted image]
I can just picture it now:
Friend 1, "Did you see Jay's Future Spa?"
Friend 2, "I did! Did you see the underside of his playfield? It's such a smooth grey!"
Friend 1, "Profoundly glorious."
Friend 2, "But what's the toilet paper in the photo for?"
Friend 1, "Best not to ask these questions."
Ah man that looks great. 
Now don't you feel better.
Quoted from jsa:Side question: The playfield wood rails were long stapled to the playfield. There were screw holes, but no screws. Have most of you re-attached the rails with screws? That’s our plan, but the whole thing strikes me as curious.
Those staples were super long and not fun to remove.
Yes, of course. Staples are an aberration. Bally used them to save time and money.
Screws are so much better. You will have to drill pilot holes in the wooden rails after clamping them to the playfield in the right position.
Yves
Several posts back, but -
Where did you get the Third Hand tool? I keep trying to google but I cannot find that premium-looking one that you have.
Thanks!
Quoted from vid1900:Paragon was probably the first.
It and Dolly Parton both came out before FS
What about Harlem Globetrotters? I know my machine has the patent pending sticker on my in line drops mech.
Doh, looked it up on IPDB, looks like Paragon beats Harlem by about 3 months....crazy to think those classics were cranked out so fast back then.
Quoted from Elicash:Several posts back, but -
Where did you get the Third Hand tool? I keep trying to google but I cannot find that premium-looking one that you have.
Thanks!
I’m afraid the one I ordered on Amazon is no longer for sale! Maybe someone has an alternate source (or you can go to the manufacturer):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UPCFZRG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_LvbKBbVS4DDQY
Quoted from pinballinreno:What grey paint did you end up using?
We chose a Valspar "Rocky Shelter."
Ok early Bally folks. How normal is it for the NOS pop bumper base assembly lamp lead holes not to line up? They are closer together than the holes on the playfield. The mounting bolts (they don't use screws, they bolt to a plate on the underside of the playfield) line up with the slots connected to the center hole.
These photos show the base spun both ways and to the side. It's fairly easy to bend the lamp leads with a little zig zag to get them in the holes, but I just think this is weird and I'm embarrassed that when we pulled them out, we just grabbed them with the lamps so they slid out and I have no idea how bent they were.
Next we install the pop bumper topside assemblies. These are the only topside stuff we're doing at this stage, mostly because we want the underside pop bumper assemblies and the lamp leads all available as we install the lamps and common wiring below. FYI, the rails aren't nearly as neon as my phone camera is trying to pretend.
I should also point out we replaced the pop bumper bayonet lamps with wedge style. The original bayonets were so unreliable and corroded they were trash. While we may be able to find replacements, the wedges will be more flexible for what we need going forward.
Quoted from jsa:I should also point out we replaced the pop bumper bayonet lamps with wedge style. The original bayonets were so unreliable and corroded they were trash. While we may be able to find replacements, the wedges will be more flexible for what we need going forward.
Are you using Vids trick for keeping the lamp base straight up and down?
Quoted from jsa:Ok early Bally folks. How normal is it for the NOS pop bumper base assembly lamp lead holes not to line up?
Perfectly normal. You even wonder how the flat part can go through sometimes. Very poor design overall.
I like to make these connections and solder them with tiny connectors that can slide through the small holes. That helps for future maintenance, not that you will ever need it ......
Yves
Quoted from MustangPaul:Are you using Vids trick for keeping the lamp base straight up and down?
I'm not sure what you mean. The lamp base has non-flexible flat leads, so it's held straight up by the metal.
Lamps placed:
33F71358-EDF9-4EAE-9DA2-2F19EEB2EFEB.jpeg
Pop bumper lamp leads bent over original staple holes to match original orientation:
577C6422-606C-4471-B147-8DE4F76FEC2B.jpeg
2ED4D3BA-96BD-4ECD-B245-E595E20F58FE.jpeg
Assemblies placed over leads tells us which lead passes under the metal assembly. These get protected with clear, plastic medical tubing;
Adding solder lugs to each socket (again, thanks @high_end_pins) and running the common braid.
The tradeoff here is that the braid is lifted above the surface of the back of the playfield as it threads through these lugs, which to some might not look quite as tidy. The advantage, however, is you're not soldering screws and you now can remove a socket and service it (particularly good for hard-to-reach bulbs).
We still haven't soldered anything down quite yet, but we likely will before moving on, as it will be easier to reach these solder points before the assemblies and wiring harness are put in place.
Very nicely done. There is a little fortune in sockets and LEDs on that playfield.
And with LEDs, maintenance should be almost non-existent....
Where did you procure the braid ground line? I could find some for the cabinet, but for below the playfield it was not so obvious.
Yves
Quoted from Arcane:Where did you procure the braid ground line? I could find some for the cabinet, but for below the playfield it was not so obvious.
Yves
Thanks, Yves. The common braid/rope I get at Pinrestore:
http://pinrestore.com/Supplies.html
You will find all sorts of handy items there, some not so common. This particular tinned braid is a bit more robust than the original. I personally like that better, but to each their own!
Quoted from jsa:Thanks, Yves. The common braid/rope I get at Pinrestore:
http://pinrestore.com/Supplies.html
You will find all sorts of handy items there, some not so common. This particular tinned braid is a bit more robust than the original. I personally like that better, but to each their own!
Funny because i was looking for some of this yesterday for my future Sinbad repair. Lowes had it on small rolls for cheap.
Quoted from wolffcub:Funny because i was looking for some of this yesterday for my future Sinbad repair. Lowes had it on small rolls for cheap.
Your mileage may vary. I recommend also soldering the ends after everything is done to keep it from fraying and becoming a problem later.
I also recommend sleep and a buddy watching your work. This is the sort of misfire and correction that happens to you when your son has to go to school and can’t stop you from having another senior moment.
Quoted from Arcane:Where did you procure the braid ground line? I could find some for the cabinet, but for below the playfield it was not so obvious.
Look for bare tinned copper bus wire. I forget the AWG gauge and couldn’t find my spool. You can get this lots of places cheap, even eBay.
Quoted from Arcane:Where did you procure the braid ground line? I could find some for the cabinet, but for below the playfield it was not so obvious.
You don't have to use bare wire.
Bally saved 2 cents, but you can use insulated wire and use much less of it by not having to route around every single obstacle .
You can continue the wire colors from the harness, so your GI might be green and orange, your controlled lamp +power, yellow. This makes it super easy to troubleshoot later.
...and of course the insulated wire is much less likely to short out than all that bare, exposed wiring.
0038d7572865324dc8d6dd135ae6f50374861f64 (resized).jpg
When you have a tight cluster of controlled lamps, copper tape is crazy fast to lay down.
Quoted from vid1900:You don't have to use bare wire.
Bally saved 2 cents, but you can use insulated wire and use much less of it by not having to route around every single obstetrical.
You can continue the wire colors from the harness, so your GI might be green and orange, your controlled lamp +power, yellow. This makes it super easy to troubleshoot later.
...and of course the insulated wire is much less likely to short out than all that bare, exposed wiring.
[quoted image]
When you have a tight cluster of controlled lamps, copper tape is crazy fast to lay down.
[quoted image]
I did see this from your tutorials, @vid1900. Honestly, while I think it may be better to have insulated wire for the longer term, this was super easy to do. I can kind of see why the lazy manufacturers did this back in the day. Mostly I planned around this and wanted to try to restore it the original way, just to get the feel of it. Now that it's done, on my next restore, we'll see.
I also suck at soldering, so running this wire through the holes of the lugs made it easier!
Quoted from jsa:Assemblies in place...
[quoted image]
So clean you could eat of it. 
Here's my son soldering the last of the connections...
Before we reassemble the topside of the playfield, we decided to plug in the harness to the backbox and test everything out while it is still on the rotisserie. We know any problems were caused by us, because the game worked perfectly before we took it apart. 
Now it's time to troubleshoot what's not quite right. We could use any help figuring out these things, of course.
The good news is the GI all lights up and works as expected.
We seem to have some insert lamp bus issues. Here's an example in attract mode:
There seem to be certain insert lamps that won't turn on. We've tested the socket/bulbs with a battery (they turn on no problem). They share the same common wire as lamps that do work. We have conductivity back to the connector, and we've tried re-terminating the wire on one of the bad lamps without success. I'm sure it's something obvious!
As for the coils, the good news is everything works (each coil activates during the sequential coil test). However, with 3 of the 5 pop bumpers we get a weird issue. If you watch the following video, you can see one of the pops activates on its own. However, when the second pop fires, the first fires with it. Also, when the third pop fires, the first fires with it! However, the second and third do not activate together. Sorry for the shaky video, but you can see it here:
Any obvious things anyone can recommend we check first?
Some LEDs are internally wired backwards, so although they will lite up fine in the GI (the GI is usually AC) they won't light on the DC buss.
Using a little 5 or 9VDC wallwort, test the bulbs directly by putting the + on the base, and the neg on the tip.
If they will only light up with the + on the bulb tip, they are backwards.
Every bag of 100 seems to have a few backwards ones
d2adb483e8900c5fccee143044571bdd797e4645 (resized).jpg
Also, sometimes you get bad drivers on the lamp board, those often show themselves with the power off, meter in DIODE mode.
Quoted from jsa:However, with 3 of the 5 pop bumpers we get a weird issue. If you watch the following video, you can see one of the pops activates on its own. However, when the second pop fires, the first fires with it.
put a piece of paper between the first's contact and test again.
If the switchgap is too close, the vibration of one pop will fire the next, especially when upsidedown
Quoted from vid1900:put a piece of paper between the first's contact and test again.
If the switchgap is too close, the vibration of one pop will fire the next, especially when upsidedown
This worked, it was the vibration. All the coils are good!
Quoted from vid1900:Some LEDs are internally wired backwards, so although they will lite up fine in the GI (the GI is usually AC) they won't light on the DC buss.
Using a little 5 or 9VDC wallwort, test the bulbs directly by putting the + on the base, and the neg on the tip.
If they will only light up with the + on the bulb tip, they are backwards.
Every bag of 100 seems to have a few backwards ones
[quoted image]
Also, sometimes you get bad drivers on the lamp board, those often show themselves with the power off, meter in DIODE mode.
The bulb lights up in either direction. It must be something else. I’d say the driver board, but I went ahead and swapped it with a known working one and got the same issue. It must be something in my wiring. Frustrating!
We're going to leave it in the rotisserie until we can figure out these weird issues around the lighting.
Here's what we know:
- Continuity tests perfectly from bulb lug to lamp driver pin for lamps that won't light.
- Swapping the lamp driver board with a known working backup produces no change.
- Swapping the MPU board with a known working backup produces no change.
- Connectors have been audited between the lamp driver and MPU, and specific pins on both sets of connectors for both boards, no mis-ordered pins found.
- Bulbs test fine both in and out of the socket with a tester, both polarities.
I feel like I'm missing something really obvious.
Any suggestions?
Could you jumper the non working lamps and start back at the connector and continue to jumper until you find where it stops working? You could binary search and make it a little faster
Quoted from pintechev:Could you jumper the non working lamps and start back at the connector and continue to jumper until you find where it stops working? You could binary search and make it a little faster
Well, that's the thing, the lamp does work, if connected to a different power source (like a battery). I suppose I could try swapping the pins with a working lamp, and see if it turns on...The same common wire powers other working lamps, and the control wire tests with normal continuity back to the lamp driver board. It's like the lamp driver board (or MPU) is just not telling it to turn on. Strange, right?
With these sorts of things, I've found it's often the most simplest thing that you miss. I wonder if my solder lugs are working the way I think they should... Sounds like something to validate in the morning.
Quoted from jsa:I wonder if my solder lugs are working the way I think they should... Sounds like something to validate in the morning.
I use lugs too. I have from time to time run into a situation where when screwing in a screw, the wood mushrooms up from the threading of the screw separating the contact of the lug from the lamp base. When you’re testing the continuity of the common braid are you putting one probe on the end of the braid and then touching each lamp holder in the string with the other lead? Not the screw tab or solder lug but actually further up on the arm of the lamp holder. It should buzz on each lamp. With a bulb in I also test by one lead on the end of the common braid and another on each tab on the top of each lamp. It should buzz this way too since the bulb is completing the circuit.
2D9B62CA-4BA3-4BEA-B4C0-9136BB0F3B1E (resized).jpegQuoted from Skins:When you’re testing the continuity of the common braid are you putting one probe on the end of the braid and then touching each lamp holder in the string with the other lead? Not the screw tab or solder lug but actually further up on the arm of the lamp holder. It should buzz on each lamp. With a bulb in I also test by one lead on the end of the common braid and another on each tab on the top of each lamp. It should buzz this way too since the bulb is completing the circuit.
Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, continuity tests fine with the test you are suggesting. This is something weirder.
Can anyone take me on a journey with a voltmeter on localizing where this problem begins? Remember I’m a complete amateur with electronics so I’ll need some hand holding.
If there's a number of feature lamps not working you might have a comms issue between the MPU board and the lamp driver board.
Any chance you can make a video showing all playfield lamps in lamp test mode?
Quoted from jsa:Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, continuity tests fine with the test you are suggesting. This is something weirder.
Can anyone take me on a journey with a voltmeter on localizing where this problem begins? Remember I’m a complete amateur with electronics so I’ll need some hand holding.
So I’m understanding you, you replaced the lamp board with a known working one, you have done continuity from each wire to the corresponding pin, you have continuity at the common braid, you checked led polarity yet still no lamps at the select problem ones even though there are working controlled lamps sharing the common braid?
Do you have voltage across point A to point B? Pick a lamp that works, check voltage across it (from control wire to the braid). Pick one that doesn't work and compare. I would try to find out "do I have under-voltage across lamp? or NO voltage across lamp?". Then you know if its connectivity/resistance issue or MPU is involved.
Can't tell if you did this, but make sure you test where playfield harness connects to lamp board... is the pin for the broken lamp being switched to ground during lamp test? Put DMM on voltage, black lead on ground, red lead on the lamp pin. Voltage should be 5.4v (I think?).
Total spitballing here, I'm not the best at this either.
Quoted from Quench:If there's a number of feature lamps not working you might have a comms issue between the MPU board and the lamp driver board.
Any chance you can make a video showing all playfield lamps in lamp test mode?
That could definitely be it, how would I best localize that? Here is the video you requested, let me know if it suffices:
Quoted from Skins:So I’m understanding you, you replaced the lamp board with a known working one, you have done continuity from each wire to the corresponding pin, you have continuity at the common braid, you checked led polarity yet still no lamps at the select problem ones even though there are working controlled lamps sharing the common braid?
That is correct. I should be specific: I have traced continuity from the control wires on the sockets back to the corresponding pin on the lamp board connectors. I have also pulled those connectors ever-so-slightly off the pins, leaving them on, and checked continuity to the pins on the boards themselves, just to make sure my crimps aren't bad. I haven't done the same level of work between boards though, other than to ensure I have the wiring right on the connectors (colors to the right pins, etc.).
Quoted from radium:Do you have voltage across point A to point B? Pick a lamp that works, check voltage across it (from control wire to the braid). Pick one that doesn't work and compare. I would try to find out "do I have under-voltage across lamp? or NO voltage across lamp?". Then you know if its connectivity/resistance issue or MPU is involved.
Can't tell if you did this, but make sure you test where playfield harness connects to lamp board... is the pin for the broken lamp being switched to ground during lamp test? Put DMM on voltage, black lead on ground, red lead on the lamp pin. Voltage should be 5.4v (I think?).
Total spitballing here, I'm not the best at this either.
I get -6.5V on the working lamps between the control line and braid. I get -.15V on the non-working lamps, same test. During lamp test mode, test shows little jumps (between -.15v to -.20V) on the broken lamps as it flashes, but I assume that's related to the braid.
Ok, bear in mind I'm not sure I'm reading this right. A working lamp, when the positive lead is on the driver board pin and the negative lead is on ground, shows (during lamp test mode) jumping from 0v to 4.8v (I assume on and off). For a non-working lamp, I'm seeing voltage change from 7.2v to 8v (I think?).
Quoted from radium:Another thing I would try is unplug other things like playfield switches, cab, etc. Boot with just the switched lamp plugged in. Maybe a short somewhere.
No change, unfortunately.
Quoted from Quench:If there's a number of feature lamps not working you might have a comms issue between the MPU board and the lamp driver board
I've now checked, pin for pin, the connectivity between the lamp driver board and the MPU board. On the schematic, the only pins that connect the two together on on the lamp board J4, pins 4-7 and pins 13-17. With power off and the connectors just slightly pulled out, I tested continuity for each associated pin and ensured that they were all good and going to the right place (MPU J1 pins 11-19).
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Manchester, MI
Sana'a