(Topic ID: 208174)

Future Spa: Father and Son's Second Restoration [COMPLETE]


By jsa

1 year ago



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#481 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

We already tested connecting a lamp directly to the rectifier board.
I think we measured ground voltages earlier - there is probably merit in running a jumper wire directly from the rectifier board to the lamp driver board.

I've heard this from friends who repair pins in SF... That it "smells" of power or ground related issues. While no one has a specific suggestion, the ground could be suspect. When we restored the cabinet, we ran new ground braid, and followed the original path, with one exception: We eliminated all the unnecessary loops that the original game had put in the main cabinet. The backbox, though, is 100% identical.

If I were to run a jumper from the rectifier board to the lamp driver board, what exactly do you mean? You're talking about disconnecting the power and ground from the board connectors, and running it directly somehow to the rectifier?

#483 1 year ago
Quoted from jsa:

I've heard this from friends who repair pins in SF... That it "smells" of power or ground related issues. While no one has a specific suggestion, the ground could be suspect. When we restored the cabinet, we ran new ground braid, and followed the original path, with one exception: We eliminated all the unnecessary loops that the original game had put in the main cabinet. The backbox, though, is 100% identical.
If I were to run a jumper from the rectifier board to the lamp driver board, what exactly do you mean? You're talking about disconnecting the power and ground from the board connectors, and running it directly somehow to the rectifier?

Oh nevermind, I see what you're saying...

#484 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

Since you changed out the rectifier board, and the original rectifier board worked, the problem is with the rectifier board.
I guess you could put the old one back in, it's a a lot of work but would give you a base line test.

No, this didn't happen... I didn't change out the rectifier board yet. What I mean is, we haven't done a swap...But yes, the original one worked before the restoration.

#486 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

Sadly there is only one way to find out if it still works.

Ok, first I'm going to try bypassing the ground path and doing a jumper from the LDB to the rectifier ground, just for giggles. If that doesn't work, the next step is a rectifier swap, and I may wait to do this until I have a confirmed working transformer/rectifier pair I can temporarily borrow just to see if it changes things.

#488 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

The lamp diver board doesn't get ground from the cabinet/head braid. It gets it from the rectifier board.
Actually there are already three ground wires running from the rectifier board to the lamp driver board:
Rectifier J3-4 to LDB J1-1
Rectifier J3-3 to LDB J1-2
Rectifier J3-14 to LDB J1-11

I seems to me that what I would do is test the voltages of those three ground wires. Then I should disconnect them from the LDB J1 connector housing. Then run three jumpers to those points and connect them to the rectifier board ground. Then run the socket test. Does that sound right?

#490 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

My money is on the new rectifier board having subtle differences from the old one.

Well already there are some differences for sure. The original is a AS-2518-49. The repro is closer to a AS-2518-18, but they are supposed to be compatible. The one main difference is the feature lamp fuse on the -18 is a 10amp fuse, and on the -49 is a 20amp fuse. So I'm running the feature lamp bus on 10amps, but I can't see the difference that would make other than blowing the fuse if I push it too far. If you look at connection point E9, you can see that the original board had a place for two wires to terminate. For the repro, I twist those wires together and go into a single connection point.

Just for reference, here is a photo of my original board:

IMG_3277.JPG

IMG_3278.JPG

Here is the new board:

IMG_3259 2.JPG

IMG_3257 2.JPG

#496 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

What's the likelihood all three of those wires have poor connections after you've re-terminated them all?
Try running a jumper wire from the lower leg of either white ceramic resistor on the rectifier board directly to the ground test point on the lamp driver board and see what happens. Be careful you don't jumper to the wrong spot and blow stuff up.
The curious thing about your SCR waveforms is there is always two missed latches in a row..

Do you recommend that I remove the current ground connections first?

Quoted from supermoot:

Just wanted to confirm and say, hey, I'm running an old -18 in a future spa with no weirdness.

That's helpful to know, but you're using an original Bally -18 rectifier or a repro?

#499 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

I wouldn't bother but if you really want to isolate the ground for test you could try it.
Is the transformer still wired for 115VAC or did you change it to 120VAC during the resto?

I’m pretty sure I changed nothing. I wouldn’t even know how to change that honestly.

#501 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Can you post some pictures of the wires soldered to the transformer?

Sure... better than the ones I posted above?

#503 1 year ago

Ahhhh I see sorry. Yes I’ll pull it out and take a look!

#504 1 year ago

Yep, wired for 115v.

66ABFB7B-0EC6-4322-B48D-D1736B792058.jpeg

#506 1 year ago

Ok done.

765DF8E6-ADF9-4FF6-9429-2BC75867DD13.jpeg

#507 1 year ago
Quoted from jsa:

Ok done.
[quoted image]

No difference that I can see.

#508 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I do notice you have what looks like a 6mm x 30mm time fuse in F1. The clips are designed for 6.2mm x 32mm or 1.25" x 0.25" fuses like a MDL(slow) or AGC(fast) fuse in Bussman world. Hopefully I didnt put that fuse in the rectifier board when i sent it out. Anyways since it is a hair smaller, make sure it is fitting in solid and no resistance. I would probably put an AGC-10 fuse in there.

I don't have handy a 10A AGC fuse, but I did have a 10A MDL, so I put that in there. I hope that's ok. No difference in behavior.

#509 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

What's the likelihood all three of those wires have poor connections after you've re-terminated them all?

Zero.

Quoted from Quench:

Try running a jumper wire from the lower leg of either white ceramic resistor on the rectifier board directly to the ground test point on the lamp driver board and see what happens. Be careful you don't jumper to the wrong spot and blow stuff up.

Done. No impact.

#511 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

I actually expected it might make the lamp issue worse since you now have slightly lower voltages out of the transformer compared to before.

It's hard to see if it's marginally worse. The rate of the flicker seems about the same. It's interesting that the flicker rate isn't super random, it almost seems to pulse by design (which we know it does not).

#512 1 year ago
Quoted from jsa:

It's hard to see if it's marginally worse. The rate of the flicker seems about the same. It's interesting that the flicker rate isn't super random, it almost seems to pulse by design (which we know it does not).

...which also leads me to believe that the pulse is related to something on a beat/waveform that is consistent.

#514 1 year ago

I love doing this.

before_after_resto.jpg

#517 1 year ago
Quoted from brenna98:

for your led flicker problem: Did you check the resistors on the lamp board? There is a row of them connected to each pin outgoing. I've converted many bally lamp boards to work with LEDs. If I miss one leg of a resistor when soldering, that bulb will flicker.
This is essentially the exact same thing Allteck is doing.
[quoted image]

The challenge is that the flicker happens with incandescent bulbs and with two separate lamp boards... and two separate MPU boards... so it has to be something else.

In my opinion, it’s something in my power wiring that I’ve overlooked. My next move is to swap the rectifier/transformer with a known working combo (not to solder myself). Let me absolutely get that ruled out. There is nothing left to try that I know of.

#519 1 year ago
Quoted from BJM-Maxx:

I have been following this saga for a while now and I recently bought a Future Spa myself. One question I have not seen tried is since we are talking about latching issues, have you tried your simple one socket test with 2 or even 3 incandescents loading down one SCR? Don't do it for long since the SCR won't last but if load and latching is still a concern this would eliminate load level as a thing.

I'm not sure exactly if we've tried this. When you say a simple socket test, what do you mean? How would I do that? I've taken a socket, connected it directly to the SCR gate leg and to ground to make sure it stays on/latched, and that worked fine. I've also tried a socket, connected one lead to the single pin associated with that SCR and the other to the rectifier TP1, and that flickered in lamp test. My assumption here is that the SCR has the capability of latching based on that set of experiments. I've also swapped the SCR with a known working one, same results.

When we checked the waveforms hitting the SCR, there is no question a spike comes at the normal rate to make it latch, but it seems to not be strong enough for every two cycles, then successfully latches for two cycles. It's like something interferes with the voltage on a rhythm. It looks like it's not perfect (meaning, it's not precisely two on and two off), which leads me to believe whatever is doing this is on a slightly different cycle, but close.

#520 1 year ago

waveform_info.jpg

#521 1 year ago

I actually take that back, it's precisely two on, two off for the most part...sometimes one on, two off.

#522 1 year ago
Quoted from BJM-Maxx:

I have been following this saga for a while now and I recently bought a Future Spa myself. One question I have not seen tried is since we are talking about latching issues, have you tried your simple one socket test with 2 or even 3 incandescents loading down one SCR? Don't do it for long since the SCR won't last but if load and latching is still a concern this would eliminate load level as a thing.

I have tried various increasing resistor values across even an incandescent (or LED) bulb on these flickering lamps, no change, if that's relevant.

#523 1 year ago

One other clue that we uncovered in the other thread...

Most of the lamps that are address 1 or above on the decoder clear up after the game heats up for 5-10 minutes and stop flickering.

It's only the address 0 lamps (rollover F and SPA target) that keep flickering after warm up.

This means something heats up and changes the behavior. What changes when heated?

-Solder joints (but that would have to be the rectifier, since we swapped out the other boards)
-Resistors on the rectifier?
-Resistance increases?
-Something expands and moves a short circuit out of short?
-Metal pin or female connector trifurcon expands making better contact?

#525 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

Maybe a current flow issue.
Not voltage.
More resistance after warming up.
Less current would lower the performance of the SCR, it would become slightly weaker and not latch properly.
Definitely power related.

What would impact current flow? Pin connectors? Which power wire am I taking about here?

#527 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Makes me think resistance somewhere not letting enough current flow to latch the SCRs at the low position.
Ground return from xfrmer to lamp driver board??? Specially since you hooked the 6vdc feature lamp bus right at the rect board.

Well, based on the earlier quench post, I attached a jumper from "the lower leg of either white ceramic resistor on the rectifier board" to the GND test pad on the LDB. It didn't seem to matter. I didn't bother re-terminating the three ground wires to the LDB, but I can do that next if you think it might have something to do with it.

When you say I hooked the 6VDC lamp bus right at the rect board...what do you mean exactly?

#528 1 year ago
Quoted from jsa:

Well, based on the earlier quench post, I attached a jumper from "the lower leg of either white ceramic resistor on the rectifier board" to the GND test pad on the LDB. It didn't seem to matter. I didn't bother re-terminating the three ground wires to the LDB, but I can do that next if you think it might have something to do with it.
When you say I hooked the 6VDC lamp bus right at the rect board...what do you mean exactly?

Oh I see...

#530 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Have you run the hair dryer test yet? Alternatively using freeze spray to cool components down to see what's thermally affecting the flickering?

I’d have to change the bulbs to LEDs to do that test since the bulbs that cleared are the same ones that don’t flicker with 44s. I’ll do that and hit it with the hair dryer test.

#531 1 year ago
Quoted from jsa:

I’d have to change the bulbs to LEDs to do that test since the bulbs that cleared are the same ones that don’t flicker with 44s. I’ll do that and hit it with the hair dryer test.

Still localizing... meanwhile, another glamour shot:

C00BDC88-B25C-4C89-9094-FBA0AD388097.jpeg

#532 1 year ago

Heat gun tests have failed so far. After about 5 minutes, some incandescent lamps stop flickering when on. I have been presuming it was a warm up period in which something gets hot. I can't imagine another relationship. I have not replicated this with a socket directly connected to just one blinking LDB pin and TP! on the rectifier...I can make it blink, but not go solid, even with time.

I'm going to try this with LEDs and see if some of them clear up as well (they have resistors via the Alltek and the 6.3v rail).

#533 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Ground return from xfrmer to lamp driver board??? Specially since you hooked the 6vdc feature lamp bus right at the rect board.

I've now removed the connector housing from the rectifier J3 and replaced the whole thing with a molex style connector with obsessive, careful crimps, all identical. The connector has excellent contact on all pins. This includes the three ground returns from the LDB.

Just for giggles, I replaced all three ground returns to the rectifier on the LDB connector as well.

No change to any behavior.

#534 1 year ago

barakandl just double checking: Am I correct in saying there are no differences between your -18 and the original -49 that could *possibly* have anything to do with this, right? I’ve literally got nothing left to try.

#536 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

Just an obvervation.
You have done everything except put the old rectifier board back in?
It might be informative to see the differences between the new and old while in service on your game.
It's a pain but really only a 1 hour job or less.

Exactly, that's what I meant in my last post. This is my next move. I don't think I can just re-install it though, it had been hacked up in a way I'd have to rebuilt it somewhat and bullet proof it first, then I could use it in the original way. For example, certain power/ground lines had been directly soldered to the back of the board, and the ground was to the test pin, etc. It was a mess. However, as you saw from the photo, it's in good enough shape it can be cleaned up.

I ordered a kit from Big Daddy to clean it up. I'm not sure if I'll be using the Kulpa method or just following along a thread here on Pinside.

I just worry I'll go through this whole process and achieve no different result. It's worth it though, because then I'll have a backup rectifier.

#538 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

Try not to be the glass half empty guy

HA! I think given the full scope of this thread, we do a good job of "glass half full." And old buddy used to complain that I didn't give up enough.

#540 1 year ago
Quoted from LynnInDenver:

If you can manage it, since it was at least working, see if it works before you clean it up, just to verify.

This is good advice. I think the only challenge with this approach is that every time the transformer is re-soldered to a rectifier, you're cleaning up the ends and shortening the leads, even by a small amount. I think I can do this, but probably only once without jumpers. In my perfect world, I would be able to do this with only non-permanent connections, but these earlier rectifiers were ugly in that way.

Quoted from LynnInDenver:

I know, it sounds like a bit of a hassle since it sounds like it's been really "route hacked", but you know it was working, it's just going to be an ugly reinstall. If you "clean it up" before reinstall, you may render it non-working, and then you may never find where the gremlin is without professional help making a house call.

I understand your point. The connections in question were routed from the back of the board directly to a new cable connector to avoid the burnt pins. To simulate that would require I remove those specific trifurcons from the connector housing and somehow bypass the pins/traces on the board back to those solder points. That is a LOT of archaeology and the original bypasses have all been removed from the old rectifier. I took a lot of photography but I'm not confident I know which is which, and where the bypasses landed, so that is why I have been leaning on the idea of bringing the original back up to spec instead. I'll be honest though, I'm still not 100% sure the old rectifier is the way to go here. I've spent the better part of my career troubleshooting hard engineering problems, and I still feel like we're not answering the "why" question properly.

Given the nature of the problem (which is super weird), I'd frankly be happier pulling a transformer/rectifier combo from a friend's Future Spa that works, put it in mine, and see if that works before we go down this archaeological rabbit hole. That would isolate the rectifier board or not. If it turned out to be rectifier board related, we should find out why, what the actual differences are between my new one and the other one.

Quoted from LynnInDenver:

And advice for next time: repair and/or replace those big parts before the teardown. It'll save you some post-restore grief with machine #3 knowing that replacement parts were installed and working correctly.

I agree with that. I should have done the rectifier swap before the teardown. I've generally believed that when there are volumes of text for a decade about the design flaws and failures of a specific piece of equipment leading to all sorts of mysterious problems, cutting out those flaky devices generally has been a good strategy...Even after a restoration...This is the first time I've seen it backfire. I doubt very highly there is anything wrong with the new rectifier...more likely I wired something wrong.

#541 1 year ago

...it's also worth noting we've had people post here saying they are using an original Bally -18 rectifier board in place of the specified -49 without problems. It's not a barakandl reproduction but it's pretty much the same thing (the reproduction has improvements, but operates the same). That's more evidence it's our wiring!

#543 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

I really doubt the rectifier board itself is the problem.

Agreed.

Quoted from barakandl:

Specially with the wave form reading you took looked OK. Unless the bridge has has a bad diode internally which seems unlikely since it is a brand new part from On Semi or Fairchild.

If the bridge had a bad diode internally, wouldn't that result in far more problems than we are seeing? Seems unlikely.

Quoted from barakandl:

Looks like the CPU is updating the lamp picture too early by testing I have done. Alll i have to do to get your results is to speed up the CPU clock and the lower decoder positions begin to flicker like your example.

Given that this happens with two separate (original Bally and Alltek) MPU boards... How on earth could my clock be going faster now than before the restoration?

Quoted from barakandl:

I don't know about the Alltek MPU, but you can slow down the original Bally MPU's CPU clock by tinkering with cap/res values. I run my replacement MPUs at 0.5mhz and that seems fine. Original Bally MPUs vary clock speed do to tolerance or resistors and caps(10%/+20% caps) in the clock circuit. I can't really speak to what Alltek CPU clock is or if there is any easy way to slow it down.

The Alltek is designed to be adjusted between the Bally clock and the (faster?) Stern M-200s, whereas the Bally doesn't adjust. It's a jumper, I'll look into it.

Quoted from barakandl:

What is the CPU clock running at? cpu p37 frequency check.

I'll check that out today. Note that I'm currently using the original Bally MPU. I used both successfully before the restoration with no problems.

#546 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Here is an example of how I can make q14 and q29 flicker running future spa software by increasing the cpu's clock speed. The lamps that end up flickering vary SCR to SCR (ldb to ldb) but always begin at or near decoder output position 0.

I don't exactly know the order the cpu/software updates the lamp picture but Q14 and Q29 are presumably the first two lamps to be updated.

I’d say you figured out how to precisely replicate my problem. That is super bizarre. I’m still trying to wrap my head around how both boards would be running too fast. Going to check CPU pin 37 speed next.

#547 1 year ago

Ok barakandl I hate to be a complete idiot but I must be missing something in the procedure. DMM set to Hz, black lead to ground, red lead to p37 on the 6800P on the Alltek, right?

#549 1 year ago
Quoted from barakandl:

yep. Hz mode of DMM. Black lead on ground and red lead on P37 of the CPU chip. Should be around 0.5mhz or 500khz. Much higher speed than that and you can see the flickering begins. Presumably because the CPU updates the lamp picture before the feature lamp voltage is high enough to latch all the SCRs.

Alltek reads .553 MHz.

#552 1 year ago
Quoted from BJM-Maxx:

Fascinating possibility, never thought of clock issues. I think the factory clock is really a flip-flop. Does it use electrolytic caps? They would be constantly changing over time.

I'd really prefer to use the Alltek, I'll ask Dave over there what he thinks about this.

Here's the infuriating thing: We know that these CPUs (Bally MPU or Alltek MPU) work with Future Spa in other scenarios. Why on earth would this be a different clock speed, even faster?

What external factors would speed up your clock!? While I agree with the premise that this would create this problem, I can't imagine how this could possibly be happening.

Let me ask you a different question: If we presume that timing is the issue...and that a faster clock would create this problem...could the opposite also be true, meaning could something else be moving slower/taking longer than normal?

#553 1 year ago
Quoted from jsa:

I'd really prefer to use the Alltek, I'll ask Dave over there what he thinks about this.
Here's the infuriating thing: We know that these CPUs (Bally MPU or Alltek MPU) work with Future Spa in other scenarios. Why on earth would this be a different clock speed, even faster?
What external factors would speed up your clock!? While I agree with the premise that this would create this problem, I can't imagine how this could possibly be happening.
Let me ask you a different question: If we presume that timing is the issue...and that a faster clock would create this problem...could the opposite also be true, meaning could something else be moving slower/taking longer than normal?

Here's another clue, by the way. I noticed that I can make a lamp flicker more if the gate assembly coil is firing, drawing power. What's interesting about that coil is that it holds indefinitely until either the switch fires or the ball ends, so it's a good test. When it's firing, all the lower address lamps we've discussed fall into the flicker.

We've been able to replicate this flicker with a single socket, connected to a single lamp pin and the TP1 of the rectifier, with ALL other lamps and switches removed, so it's fair to say that the draw there or playfield wiring to lamps wasn't related to the cause. However, it's interesting to me that when the coil fires, power changes and the threshold gets crossed.

#555 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Is the larger ceramic resistor on the rectifier board getting hot? i.e. is it dissipating power or is it open circuit?

It is hot to the touch in attract mode.

#556 1 year ago

I also have a nice 43vdc on TP2 on the MPU.

#558 12 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Took some waveform snapshots from an early Bally with my old dual input oscilloscope. These are incandescent lamp based.
The following picture shows when the zero crossing detector on the MPU board falls and activates the CPU interrupt in reference to zero crossing source (43V solenoid power).
.
[quoted image]
As above but below is zoomed in on the 43V solenoid power voltage. Zero crossing interrupt triggers on the rise of the 43V solenoid power when it's around 6 volts.
[quoted image]
Below shows when the Q14 SCR on the lamp driver board is activated on the gate leg after zero crossing detector has triggered and the CPU zero crossing interrupt service routine refreshes that SCR. Note below sometimes the time before activating the SCR drifted.
[quoted image]
As above but below is zoomed in time wise to show the Q14 SCR is usually triggered/activated around 0.52ms after the zero crossing interrupt triggers.
[quoted image]

Hypothetically, what might interfere with when the ZC detector triggers? Let’s assume 43vdc is stable when the test begins. Would some kind of noise or change on that 43vdc source impact the accuracy of the detector?

We know the MPU detector is working normally because we’ve swapped it and it’s not a board issue. Therefore, that suggests to me that under certain conditions something is impacting how it functions. Something on the 43vdc?

#560 12 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Since the lamp flashing is worse when the gate coil is active, we can presume something is potentially going on with the 43V line since it's used as the reference for when the zero crossing service occurs (which handles the lamp board SCR refresh).
If your scope is dual input, you could try and take similar readings to compare.

My scope is dual input. I’ll give it a shot.

#561 12 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Took some waveform snapshots from an early Bally with my old dual input oscilloscope. These are incandescent lamp based.
The following picture shows when the zero crossing detector on the MPU board falls and activates the CPU interrupt in reference to zero crossing source (43V solenoid power).

Here is my best shot of recreating that measurement:

Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 5.11.41 PM (resized).png

Quoted from Quench:

As above but below is zoomed in on the 43V solenoid power voltage. Zero crossing interrupt triggers on the rise of the 43V solenoid power when it's around 6 volts.

Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 5.16.16 PM (resized).png

Quoted from Quench:

Below shows when the Q14 SCR on the lamp driver board is activated on the gate leg after zero crossing detector has triggered and the CPU zero crossing interrupt service routine refreshes that SCR. Note below sometimes the time before activating the SCR drifts.

Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 5.30.39 PM (resized).png

Quoted from Quench:

As above but below is zoomed in time wise to show the Q14 SCR is usually triggered/activated around 0.49ms after the zero crossing interrupt triggers.

Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 5.32.03 PM (resized).png

How does this compare? It's worrisome to me that the waveforms are so messy.

#564 12 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

With your oscilloscope, take a snapshot of ground and another snapshot of the 43V line.
For ground hookup the oscilloscope probe to the bottom leg of the large ceramic resistor on the rectifier board.

Ok, I hope I'm doing this correctly. I have the - leg hooked into the ground braid in the backbox. I have the + leg hooked into the bottom leg of the large ceramic resistor on the rectifier. Here is the result:

Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 9.52.20 PM (resized).png

Quoted from Quench:

For 43V hook up the oscilloscope probe to the top leg of the large ceramic resistor on the rectifier board.

- leg on the ground braid, + leg on the top leg of the ceramic resistor:

Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 9.54.42 PM (resized).png

Quoted from Quench:

Also, take a snapshot of the ground braid somewhere.

- leg on same ground braid, + leg on another segment of braid elsewhere in the backbox:

Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 9.56.38 PM (resized).png

Quoted from Quench:

BTW if you can, try to offset the signals on your oscilloscope so the voltage starts near the bottom of the image (not the middle) so you can fit more detail in.

I keep setting the offset, and it seems to just make it longer and longer. Not sure if I'm doing offset right.

#566 12 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Can you take a snapshot with the - leg on the bottom of the large ceramic resistor and the + leg on the top of the large ceramic resistor?

Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 10.15.29 PM (resized).png

#567 12 months ago
Quoted from jsa:

[quoted image]

I presume you also want power on during that snapshot (it was).

#569 12 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Yes, with power on.
Ok, disconnect the line cord from the wall socket.
Remove J2 from the rectifier board and pull out the thin green solenoid power wire at pin 2 and tape up the end.
Reconnect J2, plugin the line cord, power up and remeasure across that large ceramic resistor.

Done as requested:

Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 10.29.43 PM (resized).png

#571 12 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Hmm, with the machine off, can you check with your multimeter on resistance mode that you have zero ohm continuity from a ground braid to the lower leg of the large ceramic resistor?

000.0.

Quoted from Quench:

Disconnect the line cord from the wall socket and check that you have zero ohm continuity from the earth pin to the lower leg of the large ceramic resistor.

000.0

Quoted from Quench:

Leave the line cord from the wall socket disconnected.
Remove J2 from the rectifier board and pull out wires at pins 1, 2, 5 and 9. Tape them up separately and leave them hanging.
Carefully reconnect J2, plugin the line cord, power up and remeasure across that large ceramic resistor.

Done:

Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 10.50.27 PM (resized).png

Quoted from Quench:

We are now removing everything to the rectifier board except line power and ground to power the transformer.

What on earth!?!?

#573 12 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Can you take snapshots of TP1 and TP3 on the rectifier board? Want to see if that noise is appearing on the other DC voltage rails (6.5V and 12V respectively).

Here is TP1:

Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 11.24.33 PM (resized).png

Here is TP3:

Screen Shot 2018-10-23 at 11.26.21 PM (resized).png

#575 12 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

So on TP1 when the lamp voltage reaches zero, the ringing noise stops.
On TP3 however, the 12V line is not dropping to zero volts - it's dropping to 3.5V which coincidentally is the size of the peak to peak ringing noise on the 43V line (just freak luck). Does your oscilloscope allow you to go greater than 1V/div so you can fit the full height of that TP3 waveform? Also adjust the time scale so we can see at least two repetitions of the wave.

Here is the TP3 with 5V/div so you can see the full waveform over a couple cycles:

Screen Shot 2018-10-24 at 9.15.11 AM (resized).png

Here is a close-up of when it gets closest to zero volts:

Screen Shot 2018-10-24 at 9.16.08 AM (resized).png

Quoted from Quench:

If you remove fuses F1, F2, F3 and F5 - leave F4 and F6 (do this with the line cord disconnected since F6 may have live power to prevent any accidental shocks), do you still get the ringing noise on the 43V line (top of the large ceramic resistor) after powering back on.

Well, first off, I get a very different looking waveform. Here is what it looks like:

Screen Shot 2018-10-24 at 9.21.55 AM (resized).png

But yes, if you zoom in, you can see the same noise here, though it does go to zero volts:

Screen Shot 2018-10-24 at 9.23.20 AM (resized).png

Quoted from Quench:

If you have a spare line cord we might hook it up direct to the rectifier board to bypass cabinet wiring and the EMI filter.

I've made a cable, but I'm having some difficulty getting the TP3 to register any voltage with it. Strange. I hear the transformer power up, but no voltage... I have black on 6, white on 7, ground on 10, right? I'll keep looking for what I'm doing wrong.

#578 12 months ago
Quoted from radium:

I'm pretty sure Quench is helping jsa fine-tune the output of his proton pack without crossing the streams.

Unbeknownst to him he is also teaching me electronics better than any college course I could take.

#579 12 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

If you remove fuses F1, F2, F3 and F5 - leave F4 and F6 (do this with the line cord disconnected since F6 may have live power to prevent any accidental shocks), do you still get the ringing noise on the 43V line (top of the large ceramic resistor) after powering back on.

I realize now I messed this up, and was recording TP3 in this configuration. This is the top of the large ceramic resistor with F1, F2, F3 and F5 removed:

Screen Shot 2018-10-24 at 1.44.49 PM (resized).png

Here is my attempt at getting more waveform on a screen:

Screen Shot 2018-10-24 at 1.46.34 PM (resized).png

#580 12 months ago

A couple cycles:

Screen Shot 2018-10-24 at 2.01.53 PM (resized).png

#581 12 months ago

Ok, more progress. Here is the waveform across the large ceramic resistor with a clean power cord going directly from our house power into the rectifier. Same results:

Screen Shot 2018-10-24 at 2.05.08 PM (resized).png

#583 11 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

When you power on, can you hear the transformer hum? If yes, is it barely noticeable or fairly noticeable? Either way can you make sure the 4 screws on each corner of the transformer that hold it together are nice and tight.

It makes a barely perceptible hum, more pronounced just as it turns on. I recall it being the same before the restoration as well. Screws are tight.

Quoted from Quench:

By any chance is there an online manual for your oscilloscope? I'd like to see what's going in and out of the transformer but want to make sure we don't damage your oscilloscope.

HTML:

https://reference.digilentinc.com/reference/instrumentation/analog-discovery-2/reference-manual

PDF:

https://reference.digilentinc.com/_media/reference/instrumentation/analog-discovery-2/ad2_rm.pdf

#587 11 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Looks like a neat little unit. I wanted to check that the "-" lead on the probe wasn't internally connected to ground which it isn't. This means we can measure AC with it.
It supports max +/- 25V for measurement. We want to measure more than this. I think I asked before, does the probe have a X1 and X10 switch? Switching to X10 will allow you to measure 10 times higher voltages so you can read up to +/- 250V.

I can’t find a 10x setting or switch.

Quoted from Zitt:

I personally am wondering if there is a bad cap in the zero cross circuit which is allowing that ripple to falsely trigger the MPU.
Have you done any work on the MPU? or Did you have work done on the MPU?
Could someone have replaced the ICs in the zero cross circuit?

No work was done on the MPU, also I’ve swapped MPUs with no change in results.

Quoted from Quench:

Looks to me like it's in the 20kHz range. Everything is disconnected from the rectifier board except power and the ripple is still there. There is no high frequency ripple in my waveforms above.

One thing that absolutely could be important is that I did personally do the work of soldering the transformer to the rectifier board. I’m wondering if anything in that solder work could result in this noise.

#589 11 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Did your oscilloscope came with alligator clip leads, or a proper oscilloscope probe like below? Did your scope come with the "Analog Discovery BNC Adapter"? If you have the BNC adapter but the unit came with alligator clip leads, consider getting some oscilloscope probes from ebay (they're cheap).

I'm afraid not, I have no BNC adapter or other clips of any kind. It basically came with nothing but female jumpers coming off the scope itself. I've been hacking together my own probes using male-to-male jumpers.

Quoted from Quench:

Can you remove fuse F4 from the rectifier board so the only fuse left is F6. Set up you oscilloscope so the offset is back on zero so the wave is in the middle of the image. Connect the negative lead to solder point E4 and the positive lead to E3. Lets see what the AC waveform looks like out of the transformer for the 43V supply.
Do the same with the positive lead on point E11 and the negative lead on E12. This is the AC output for the 12V supply.

Is this safe to do since my scope can only handle +/- 25V? It has a 50V max peak-peak rating, whatever that means. Assuming the answer is yes, I'll rig this up tomorrow morning (my time zone).

#592 11 months ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Backbox grounding is pretty wonky in a game like future spa. The 12v at the sound board and 5v voltage regulator(could 20khz in SMPS's noise range?) have isolated returns back to the transformer panel (hv too). What if bad grounds on the 12v regulator end up leaving the 5v supply at different potential then the 43v? Could that cause effect on the 43v zero X detection?
I mention because of the picture of the 12v not going all the way to zero.

When you say bad grounds on the 12v regulator, you're saying on the rectifier board itself? We're seeing this noise with everything disconnected (including all those returns) from the board. I ask because I like potential directions where it could be caused by my bad soldering skills.

#593 11 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Do you have resistors on hand? If yes, what values do you have? We may need to make up a voltage divider with them to measure the 43VAC supply.

I do have a big resistor assortment pack on hand. What's the ideal level you want? I can just put them in-line on my hacked probe wires.

#595 11 months ago

E11 and E12:

Screen Shot 2018-10-25 at 8.13.53 AM (resized).png

#597 11 months ago

2ms/div:

Screen Shot 2018-10-25 at 8.56.00 AM (resized).png

200us/div:

Screen Shot 2018-10-25 at 8.56.35 AM (resized).png

Here is zoomed out. Got the sine wave this time.

Screen Shot 2018-10-25 at 8.55.29 AM (resized).png

#598 11 months ago

By the way, the way I did that was to set it to 2ms/div time base, 5v/div on the channel, and then do a recording. Once I've done a recording, I can change the time base. Should I be re-recording?

#600 11 months ago

1v/div:

Screen Shot 2018-10-25 at 9.16.38 AM (resized).png

It plugged it back into the cabinet wiring. I can do it again with the direct connection...I had assumed since we saw the noise both times it wasn't related. Should I re-record?

#601 11 months ago

Here is the same recording bypassing the cabinet wiring and direct to the outlet:

Screen Shot 2018-10-25 at 9.26.45 AM (resized).png

#603 11 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

I mean it looks like the noise is coming in on the transformer - it might sound like an odd question but you did move the machine from one site to another when you completed it right?

Same location. Or put another way, the machine moved around my house as we completed the work, but right now it's plugged into the same location it was when it worked prior to teardown.

If you mean could the transformer have been damaged, moved, jostled, etc., anything is possible. For a game like this, the transformer is mounted to a back plane along with the rectifier. It's then moved as a single unit in/out of the machine. I assembled it on the bench and tested it on the bench. However, I can't stress enough, I found the whole through-hole soldering of wires to the rectifier awkward at best. Whiskers, shorts, solder blobs... I didn't find any, but anything is possible.

Meanwhile I'll try to find a period-correct transformer/rectifier combo to swap with, and also get my other rectifier board ready for some kind of swap as well.

Quoted from Quench:

It would be good to get an oscilloscope measurement from another machine - what else have you got? If you can't work out where, hopefully someone can chime in where to measure on your other machine a similar AC or DC voltage that's unfiltered/unregulated from it's power supply.

I have a TOM, a TOTAN, a BoP, and a BM66. Probably the BoP is the oldest but still 10 years newer than the FS. I'm not sure if that's helpful.

#605 11 months ago
Quoted from BJM-Maxx:

Sounds like we are getting close to pointing at the transformer but its hard to understand how that is possible. Just to eliminate all variables, have you checked the power from the wall outlet?

Unfortunately, I don't think my scope can handle 120V (unless I misunderstand my scope specs, which say 50v peak to peak). If I put some kind of resistor on each lead, I could just plug my scope right into the AC power coming off the circuit and check the waveform for noise, right? Any advice on what level resistor?

Also, I'm more inclined to think it has something to do with the way I attached my transformer to my rectifier...

#608 11 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

To me, this noise we're seeing is coming in from your wall socket probably from a bad switch mode power supply or inverter in the house. Do you have solar panels?

HOLY #$%^!

I need to sit down for a second.

I have an elaborate solar panel setup in my house. I'm a beta tester for some newer inverter technology. Unfortunately, as part of the beta test, some equipment failed back in December of 2017. We had a few months of downtime as we re-worked some of the system.

We acquired the Future Spa in January, and began working on the project in February. This is all during the time the solar panels and inverters were offline.

The machine then was torn down and the restoration began.

I've had various ups and downs of the inverter system, which is fairly unique. It's a great system, but I've been helping the company work out the bugs. We brought it back online and fully stable in August and early September.

We then completed the restoration, all after the panels have been fully operational, as well as the batteries and inverter system.

So, bottom line, before the teardown, no inverter. After the restoration, inverter.

Quoted from Quench:

Have you still got the original EMI filter from the game? It might have been doing a better job at rejecting the noise. Maybe you could hook it inline with the direct line cord you've got.

I do have that filter, but I suspect we would get the same results. I think we have our smoking gun at this point, don't you? I wonder how I can do a better job filtering the inverter noise from my power system.

Quoted from Quench:

Or what's the chance you have a UPS (uninterruptible power supply) you could hook the machine up to?

THAT I can do. I have a UPS for certain systems in the house. Long story. I'll make that happen.

Quoted from Quench:

You'd need to hook up a couple of very high value resistors in series to create a divider circuit. See below:
Of course I need to stress that you exercise extreme caution to prevent shock. The line peak to peak voltage is near 340V.
If you don't have these value resistors tell us what you have that's in the vicinity.[quoted image]

I will test with the UPS first. If the problem goes away, I'd rather focus on cleaning my power...Unless you think a better EMI filter would help this game?

Quoted from Quench:

Have you got an old fashioned AC power pack you could measure the output with your scope? Something like a 9VAC, 12VAC or 15VAC power pack? If you haven't got an AC unit what about a DC unit? Will save you messing around with hooking resistors to your line cord for measurements.

I do have various AC power packs probably lying around, and DC units. Can you explain a bit more about how I would use this?

#611 11 months ago
Quoted from BJM-Maxx:

I almost edited my wall socket question to ask if you had a dimmer somewhere very partially dimmed. I did not think about solar panels. It sounds like you also have standard grid power. Can you just power down your inverter?

I can power down the inverter, but as I'm part of a beta program, I need to contact the company before I do that (long story, we're monitoring and building data for this machine learning system for power shifting). Meanwhile, I plugged an extension cord into a UPS but I'm still getting noise. I need to figure out if I'm hooked into the UPS correctly, stay tuned.

#612 11 months ago

This seems like such an amazing solution...however somehow I'm still getting noise even through my UPS. This doesn't say much, the UPS is old, and who knows how good a job it's doing of line conditioning when not on battery. I could pull power and have it run on battery... Hmm...

Anyway, this is plugged into the UPS, fuse F1, F2, F3 and F5 removed, line power bypassing the cabinet wiring/EMI filter, and captured across the large ceramic resistor:

Screen Shot 2018-10-25 at 8.47.44 PM (resized).png

Same results with cabinet wiring... I think I'll just pull the plug on my source power. (Yikes)

#613 11 months ago

Ok... well this was a weird experiment.

When grid power was removed from the UPS, and the UPS was running 100% on battery, I then turned the Future Spa on (both directly into the power or also through the cabinet wiring and line filter).

The transformer made a LOUD hum this time. There was something goofy going on.

When I measured the same waveform across the large ceramic resistor, I got these weird waveforms:

Screen Shot 2018-10-25 at 9.14.23 PM (resized).png

Screen Shot 2018-10-25 at 9.15.50 PM (resized).png

Returning to grid power brought me back to that "V" with noise.

Anyone care to explain this to me? Note that I do have other devices also plugged into the same UPS...and I can't turn them off.

#615 11 months ago
Quoted from Zitt:

Dude.
Load the game up in your truck... take it to a friends house without solar and measure it.
In order for the UPS to work; it needs to be completely offline w/ a real sinusoidal output. Most inexpensive ones do not have that feature.
I could defiantly see the 20khz noise coming from the solar + battery inverter. I'd be concerned about it if it does prove to be the configuration.

Yeah, that was some weird output when disconnnected from the grid!

Tomorrow I’ll shut down the inverter. I now have the procedure that won’t break anything. If it’s proves to be noise from that, it’s progress!

#616 11 months ago

The specs on the UPS say that on battery it should output a “simulated sine waveform.” That doesn’t look like a simulated sine waveform.

#620 11 months ago
Quoted from BJM-Maxx:

Most UPS produce 'Modified Sine' wave output. It is a brute force simplistic waveform that most AC devices tolerate. It won't look at all sinusoidal. It it a square wave with small 0V gaps between the positive and negative going square pulses. A spectral analysis would show lots of spikes at various harmonics
Your inverter may do a better job of simulating a sine wave and a 20 kHz frequency seems typical. You may be able to filter that out with something you plug the machine into. More modern switched power supplies would probably not be bothered by that sort of thing.

To be clear, the super weird waveform is from my UPS system’s simulated sine wave. My machine and the power of the house never sees that sine wave because it’s power backup only for my telecom gear (and has been tested fine in that gear for many years). I only tried it to see if I could get a clean sine wave without any inverter noise.

My inverter noise (if that is the culprit) is a separate thing, and I’ll try shutting that down today and see if the noise goes away.

#621 11 months ago
Quoted from Atari_Daze:

How close is your nearest neighbor, can you run an extension cord just to test?
What about a portable gen set, have one of those?
This thread has become popcorn worthy - well for me at least.
[quoted image]

None of those options are possible. The neighbors are just too far. Shutting down the inverter for a few minutes is easy.

Oh, believe me, this is hysterical to me as well. If this is the cause, essentially 1979 Bally failing to precisely predict the future when people have solar panels and prototype inverters, I’m going to be thrilled.

#622 11 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

I'm glad the game was effectively disconnected after the transformer. We might otherwise be looking at some damage.

What’s bugging me is that my UPS also has an AVR (automatic voltage regulator). There shouldn’t be noise passing through that source. The power is converted from AC to DC then back again.

#625 11 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

We might be counting our chickens too early.
If you've got something like a 15VAC transformer power pack, plug it in and hook up your oscilloscope to its 15VAC output and see if there's any of that noise.

I have transformer packs, I have to see if I have ones that just reduce the voltage. I must somewhere.

#626 11 months ago

Here are a couple shots I took trying to get signal out of a 120W AC to 32W DC transformer pack.

Screen Shot 2018-10-26 at 8.21.11 AM (resized).png

Screen Shot 2018-10-26 at 8.20.52 AM (resized).png

#628 11 months ago

That transformer was wonky so I've switched to a different one. This one is 120V AC in and 24V AC out. Here is the wave. It's weird.

Screen Shot 2018-10-26 at 8.37.24 AM (resized).png

Here is zoomed in:

Screen Shot 2018-10-26 at 8.39.49 AM (resized).png

Here is the label:

IMG_3430 (resized).JPG

#630 11 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Yeah the issue looks about the same to me. The switching interference is about 2V peak to peak on that 25VAC output. On your 43VAC output at the pinball transformer is was about 3.5V peak to peak. With the stretched sample in picture 2 it calculates more accurately to around 24.5kHz.

I'm going to shut down my inverter next, because...why not. If it shows a clean signal, we'll keep moving on from there. This is fun.

#631 11 months ago

Here is my results with no inverter. This is measured across the large ceramic resistor on the rectifier. F1, F2, F3 and F5 fuses removed.

This is my regular wall outlet power:

Screen Shot 2018-10-26 at 9.19.10 AM (resized).png

Zoom in:

Screen Shot 2018-10-26 at 9.19.40 AM (resized).png

Here is plugged into my UPS line conditioner (not on battery):

Screen Shot 2018-10-26 at 9.12.29 AM (resized).png

What does this tell us?

#633 11 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Feel like reconnecting everything in the game and see what happens?

Yep. Here we go. I have to rebuild that connector but shouldn't take too long.

14
#635 11 months ago

No flicker.

We solved it.

I'm speechless. I need to take this all in.

#642 11 months ago

Before we go any farther with this...

We need to thank some folks here. Tons of you helped out and all deserve thanks for supporting this process. However, I need to single out @quench, who really took an insane amount of time helping me understand all this. Secondly, @barakandl, who not only took the time to really dive deep on some troubleshooting, also CLEARLY makes a rock-solid rectifier board, which has now been proven by countless waveform analysis recordings. Folks like @zitt, @bjm-maxx, @vid1900 and so many others.

I think what this proves (beyond a shadow of a doubt) is that for any service professionals responding to early Bally lamp latching, before spending a ton of time fixing an MPU board or adding resistors, ask them before you truck roll if they have solar panels and an inverter.

What a journey. Wow.

Now I have to figure out how to clean my AC power in my house. Any suggestions?

#646 11 months ago
Quoted from pintechev:

Actually, you were.

I know right? Can we just have quench get the MVP award for most patient electronics expert of all time?

#651 11 months ago
Quoted from Atari_Daze:

Actually yes, you should request a power quality study be provided by the solar power company. Your results have ramifications they need to consider. Your product that was effected is a pleasure device, what about those on life saving electronic equipment. They should be very interested in providing a product to the market that can filter out such harmonics?

The company that makes my equipment (sort of a more sophisticated Tesla Power Wall) is shipping, but while we're adding features and taking notes I'll keep it private. They make a fantastic product. I'll work with them for some possible solutions that can be integrated into their next revision.

However, for my current setup, I'll need something inserted into the architecture that doesn't create additional load or other issues. The solar company that helped install the panels, while awesome, are out of the loop in this case. We went outside their normal equipment to do this.

Quoted from Kawydud:

Such an epic thread for diagnosing a problem. Congrats to all who pitched it.
Inverters can cause a lot of havoc, I work with large ones that run industrial compressors. If you don't have a line reactor filter installed, the building will be seeing all sorts of electrical problems.

For a home, though, there has to be a solution that is more residential-scale. I'm surprised this isn't more of a common situation that there wouldn't be some easy solutions.

#654 11 months ago
Quoted from ReadyPO:

While I greatly enjoyed your entire Future Spa restoration thread, the deep dive into troubleshooting this seemly little gremlin borders on epic - so much to learn and absorb here!

Thanks, totally agree on the learning. It doesn't hurt that this Future Spa is pretty fun to look at while you're doing it.

#656 11 months ago
Quoted from Zitt:

Sweet Geebuz.... I too am beside myself.
Time to look at filtering the AC to get that 20kHz harmonic out.
Or maybe trying to modify the zerocross circuit to only fire once.

I'm thinking that since it seems to only effect old Bally machines, perhaps I should get an isolation transformer for the machine for now, and just get the inverter company to fix this.

#658 11 months ago
Quoted from Atari_Daze:

Hmm, why not one sized for the whole power supply to your residence? I mean if YOU'RE not the one going to pay for it.

Well, you can't really use isolation transformers for a whole house. You can do massive UPS systems or line conditioner systems...but your mileage may vary.

Your best bet is usually eliminating the noise. That's why I'm trying to get the inverter company to dig in to this one.

#660 11 months ago
Quoted from Zitt:

I'm wondering how effective a simple ferrite bead would be inline on the 43VAC zero cross circuit:
Maybe getting one of those multiturn beads he showed would go a long way to reducing the 20k harmonic.

I guess the question is, where would you put it exactly? After the rectifier on its way to the SDB?

#662 11 months ago
Quoted from Zitt:

No. I'd put it after the rectifier but before the zerocross in the MPU.
IE so the CPU doesn't get interrupted until it's really suppose to.
See https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/future-spa-father-and-sons-second-restoration/page/12#post-4651214.. you'd want to remove those early pulses with some kind of filter network.
I'm not a filter designer by trade... but it "should" be possible to design a low pass filter centered around 120Hz which would reduce the 20KHz harmonic.

I guess you mean on the ZC line between the rectifier and the MPU then, if I understand correctly. I have ferrite beads designed for this purpose, actually. Don't ask me why, but you never know when you might need one.

#664 11 months ago
Quoted from Zitt:

correct; I have doubts the frequency response of a ferrite bead will be enough to attenuate the 20kHz signal.
A quick calculation using:
http://www.calculatoredge.com/electronics/ch%20pi%20low%20pass.htm
with:
5kHz cut off, 5ohm Zo, and 20db ripple with 3 components shows a pi filter with 190uF caps and a L of 14uH.
I haven't pspiced the pi filter... and I'm not sure how it will impact the zero cross.

I actually do want to tell you I have any idea what I'm seeing here, but I'd be lying.

#667 11 months ago

Thanks! It couldn’t have happened without this generous group of people here.

Today I tried an isolating transformer.

Problem is entirely gone.

Tomorrow I’ll see what happens with a ferrite choke and no isolating transformer (though until I get the noise eliminated at the source, I’ll probably keep using the isolator to protect the game).

#669 11 months ago
Quoted from pintechev:

Which isolation transformer did you use?

The one I already had:

6C096C9E-1EEA-4830-9CCE-643A87357CD4 (resized).jpeg
#673 11 months ago
Quoted from Arcane:

Did you replace the main AC filter on that machine? For $20, it is something that should never get skipped.
This what I used on my Mata Hari:
[quoted image]
You can see the differences.....
Yves

Yes, here is our original:

a470b2fe200cdc6a1672fe2e990560a2c592d314.jpg

...and here is our replacement, which we sourced from Marco:

81b0e25fea64481ef414cc3f0d1c761dcc50c764.jpg

Not quite as big as yours. Anything remarkably different?

#675 11 months ago
Quoted from Arcane:

The only thing I can see is the current capability (6 Amps versus 5 Amps) and the double filtering versus single stage on yours. On a wide body machine, there is more electrical consumption than a narrow-body, due to the some additional GI lamps and extra switched lights. The double stage may also helps if your electrical supply is dirty in California. These filters were installed to prevent parasitic oscillations and interferences generated by the pinball to go back into the main supply, but they work in both directions, due to their symmetrical design.
I sourced the filter I used, from Digi Key.
I am glad that you found a solution for your unnerving lamps issue. After all the care and labor you put in that machine to restore it to pristine condition, that was very demotivating. If you ever get a beefier filter, try it and see if you can get rid of your isolating transformer.
Yves

On one hand, I'm disappointed that the original line filter or my replacement of the same level won't do the trick. On the other hand, Bally could not have predicted the weirdness that is my solar panel and inverter setup back in 1979.

I've been meaning to do some experimenting with ferrite cores but I'm so tired of pushing trifercons out of box connectors that I keep procrastinating. I'm feeling this is pretty done! Time to celebrate.

#676 11 months ago

In her new location, at least for now:

IMG_3457.JPG

IMG_3459.JPG

IMG_3460.JPG

IMG_3461.JPG

IMG_3463.JPG

If you look closely, you can just see a little purple coming out the neck grill... just a little extra flair for dark rooms.

IMG_3464.JPG

#678 11 months ago
Quoted from MustangPaul:

That is so pretty I'd be afraid to touch it.

That's the thing, fiberglass resin, automotive paints... Holy crap, this thing is a tank. I wonder how much this machine weighs in comparison to before the teardown from bondo, fiberglass resin, paint and clear.

#681 11 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

What would be really cool is if you could get the lights to flicker!

I literally just spit my strong and overpriced alcohol across the room.

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