(Topic ID: 208174)

Future Spa: Father and Son's Second Restoration [COMPLETE]


By jsa

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 682 posts
  • 58 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 months ago by Bryan_Kelly
  • Topic is favorited by 56 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 408 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

IMG_3460.JPG
IMG_3461.JPG
IMG_3463.JPG
IMG_3464.JPG
IMG_3459.JPG
IMG_3457.JPG
a470b2fe200cdc6a1672fe2e990560a2c592d314.jpg
81b0e25fea64481ef414cc3f0d1c761dcc50c764.jpg
dbb44982e231efc5df9dce55787f4b1b04ea439b (resized).jpg
6C096C9E-1EEA-4830-9CCE-643A87357CD4 (resized).jpeg
images (resized).jpg
After.png
Before.png
Screen Shot 2018-10-26 at 9.12.29 AM (resized).png
Screen Shot 2018-10-26 at 9.19.40 AM (resized).png
Screen Shot 2018-10-26 at 9.19.10 AM (resized).png

There are 682 posts in this topic. You are on page 14 of 14.
#651 11 months ago
Quoted from Atari_Daze:

Actually yes, you should request a power quality study be provided by the solar power company. Your results have ramifications they need to consider. Your product that was effected is a pleasure device, what about those on life saving electronic equipment. They should be very interested in providing a product to the market that can filter out such harmonics?

The company that makes my equipment (sort of a more sophisticated Tesla Power Wall) is shipping, but while we're adding features and taking notes I'll keep it private. They make a fantastic product. I'll work with them for some possible solutions that can be integrated into their next revision.

However, for my current setup, I'll need something inserted into the architecture that doesn't create additional load or other issues. The solar company that helped install the panels, while awesome, are out of the loop in this case. We went outside their normal equipment to do this.

Quoted from Kawydud:

Such an epic thread for diagnosing a problem. Congrats to all who pitched it.
Inverters can cause a lot of havoc, I work with large ones that run industrial compressors. If you don't have a line reactor filter installed, the building will be seeing all sorts of electrical problems.

For a home, though, there has to be a solution that is more residential-scale. I'm surprised this isn't more of a common situation that there wouldn't be some easy solutions.

#652 11 months ago

Is this the new inverter testing device?

images (resized).jpg
#653 11 months ago

While I greatly enjoyed your entire Future Spa restoration thread, the deep dive into troubleshooting this seemly little gremlin borders on epic - so much to learn and absorb here!

#654 11 months ago
Quoted from ReadyPO:

While I greatly enjoyed your entire Future Spa restoration thread, the deep dive into troubleshooting this seemly little gremlin borders on epic - so much to learn and absorb here!

Thanks, totally agree on the learning. It doesn't hurt that this Future Spa is pretty fun to look at while you're doing it.

#655 11 months ago
Quoted from jsa:

No flicker.
We solved it.
I'm speechless. I need to take this all in.

Sweet Geebuz.... I too am beside myself.
Time to look at filtering the AC to get that 20kHz harmonic out.

Or maybe trying to modify the zerocross circuit to only fire once.

#656 11 months ago
Quoted from Zitt:

Sweet Geebuz.... I too am beside myself.
Time to look at filtering the AC to get that 20kHz harmonic out.
Or maybe trying to modify the zerocross circuit to only fire once.

I'm thinking that since it seems to only effect old Bally machines, perhaps I should get an isolation transformer for the machine for now, and just get the inverter company to fix this.

#657 11 months ago
Quoted from jsa:

isolation transformer for the machine

Hmm, why not one sized for the whole power supply to your residence? I mean if YOU'RE not the one going to pay for it.

#658 11 months ago
Quoted from Atari_Daze:

Hmm, why not one sized for the whole power supply to your residence? I mean if YOU'RE not the one going to pay for it.

Well, you can't really use isolation transformers for a whole house. You can do massive UPS systems or line conditioner systems...but your mileage may vary.

Your best bet is usually eliminating the noise. That's why I'm trying to get the inverter company to dig in to this one.

#659 11 months ago
Quoted from jsa:

I'm thinking that since it seems to only effect old Bally machines, perhaps I should get an isolation transformer for the machine for now, and just get the inverter company to fix this.

I'm wondering how effective a simple ferrite bead would be inline on the 43VAC zero cross circuit:

Maybe getting one of those multiturn beads he showed would go a long way to reducing the 20k harmonic.

#660 11 months ago
Quoted from Zitt:

I'm wondering how effective a simple ferrite bead would be inline on the 43VAC zero cross circuit:
Maybe getting one of those multiturn beads he showed would go a long way to reducing the 20k harmonic.

I guess the question is, where would you put it exactly? After the rectifier on its way to the SDB?

#661 11 months ago
Quoted from jsa:

I guess the question is, where would you put it exactly? After the rectifier on its way to the SDB?

No. I'd put it after the rectifier but before the zerocross in the MPU.
IE so the CPU doesn't get interrupted until it's really suppose to.

See https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/future-spa-father-and-sons-second-restoration/page/12#post-4651214.. you'd want to remove those early pulses with some kind of filter network.

I'm not a filter designer by trade... but it "should" be possible to design a low pass filter centered around 120Hz which would reduce the 20KHz harmonic.

#662 11 months ago
Quoted from Zitt:

No. I'd put it after the rectifier but before the zerocross in the MPU.
IE so the CPU doesn't get interrupted until it's really suppose to.
See https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/future-spa-father-and-sons-second-restoration/page/12#post-4651214.. you'd want to remove those early pulses with some kind of filter network.
I'm not a filter designer by trade... but it "should" be possible to design a low pass filter centered around 120Hz which would reduce the 20KHz harmonic.

I guess you mean on the ZC line between the rectifier and the MPU then, if I understand correctly. I have ferrite beads designed for this purpose, actually. Don't ask me why, but you never know when you might need one.

#663 11 months ago
Quoted from jsa:

I guess you mean on the ZC line between the rectifier and the MPU then, if I understand correctly. I have ferrite beads designed for this purpose, actually. Don't ask me why, but you never know when you might need one.

correct; I have doubts the frequency response of a ferrite bead will be enough to attenuate the 20kHz signal.

A quick calculation using:
http://www.calculatoredge.com/electronics/ch%20pi%20low%20pass.htm
with:
5kHz cut off, 5ohm Zo, and 20db ripple with 3 components shows a pi filter with 190uF caps and a L of 14uH.
I haven't pspiced the pi filter... and I'm not sure how it will impact the zero cross.

#664 11 months ago
Quoted from Zitt:

correct; I have doubts the frequency response of a ferrite bead will be enough to attenuate the 20kHz signal.
A quick calculation using:
http://www.calculatoredge.com/electronics/ch%20pi%20low%20pass.htm
with:
5kHz cut off, 5ohm Zo, and 20db ripple with 3 components shows a pi filter with 190uF caps and a L of 14uH.
I haven't pspiced the pi filter... and I'm not sure how it will impact the zero cross.

I actually do want to tell you I have any idea what I'm seeing here, but I'd be lying.

#665 11 months ago

I'm so happy that other Pinsiders jumped in to help you figure this out. I was no help at all because I'm a dummy when it comes to electronics and it was all Greek to me. Congrats.

#666 11 months ago

This is among the coolest troubleshooting threads I have ever seen. I don’t usually pay attention to these, but started getting interested over in the Bally thread, and followed when it got brought back here. I was simply stunned when you were asked about solar inverter (“that’s really pulling stuff out of thin air” I thought) to see the “actually, yes” answer... Truly epic, and glad you got it figured out!

#667 11 months ago

Thanks! It couldn’t have happened without this generous group of people here.

Today I tried an isolating transformer.

Problem is entirely gone.

Tomorrow I’ll see what happens with a ferrite choke and no isolating transformer (though until I get the noise eliminated at the source, I’ll probably keep using the isolator to protect the game).

#668 11 months ago

Which isolation transformer did you use?

#669 11 months ago
Quoted from pintechev:

Which isolation transformer did you use?

The one I already had:

6C096C9E-1EEA-4830-9CCE-643A87357CD4 (resized).jpeg
#670 11 months ago

That’s the one I have!

#671 11 months ago
Quoted from jsa:

Today I tried an isolating transformer.

Problem is entirely gone.

Gotta like a plug'n'play solution

#672 11 months ago
Quoted from jsa:

Thanks! It couldn’t have happened without this generous group of people here.
Today I tried an isolating transformer.
Problem is entirely gone.
Tomorrow I’ll see what happens with a ferrite choke and no isolating transformer (though until I get the noise eliminated at the source, I’ll probably keep using the isolator to protect the game).

Did you replace the main AC filter on that machine? For $20, it is something that should never get skipped.
This what I used on my Mata Hari:
dbb44982e231efc5df9dce55787f4b1b04ea439b (resized).jpg
You can see the differences.....

Yves

#673 11 months ago
Quoted from Arcane:

Did you replace the main AC filter on that machine? For $20, it is something that should never get skipped.
This what I used on my Mata Hari:
[quoted image]
You can see the differences.....
Yves

Yes, here is our original:

a470b2fe200cdc6a1672fe2e990560a2c592d314.jpg

...and here is our replacement, which we sourced from Marco:

81b0e25fea64481ef414cc3f0d1c761dcc50c764.jpg

Not quite as big as yours. Anything remarkably different?

#674 11 months ago
Quoted from jsa:

Not quite as big as yours. Anything remarkably different?

The only thing I can see is the current capability (6 Amps versus 5 Amps) and the double filtering versus single stage on yours. On a wide body machine, there is more electrical consumption than a narrow-body, due to the some additional GI lamps and extra switched lights. The double stage may also helps if your electrical supply is dirty in California. These filters were installed to prevent parasitic oscillations and interferences generated by the pinball to go back into the main supply, but they work in both directions, due to their symmetrical design.

I sourced the filter I used, from Digi Key.

I am glad that you found a solution for your unnerving lamps issue. After all the care and labor you put in that machine to restore it to pristine condition, that was very demotivating. If you ever get a beefier filter, try it and see if you can get rid of your isolating transformer.

Yves

#675 11 months ago
Quoted from Arcane:

The only thing I can see is the current capability (6 Amps versus 5 Amps) and the double filtering versus single stage on yours. On a wide body machine, there is more electrical consumption than a narrow-body, due to the some additional GI lamps and extra switched lights. The double stage may also helps if your electrical supply is dirty in California. These filters were installed to prevent parasitic oscillations and interferences generated by the pinball to go back into the main supply, but they work in both directions, due to their symmetrical design.
I sourced the filter I used, from Digi Key.
I am glad that you found a solution for your unnerving lamps issue. After all the care and labor you put in that machine to restore it to pristine condition, that was very demotivating. If you ever get a beefier filter, try it and see if you can get rid of your isolating transformer.
Yves

On one hand, I'm disappointed that the original line filter or my replacement of the same level won't do the trick. On the other hand, Bally could not have predicted the weirdness that is my solar panel and inverter setup back in 1979.

I've been meaning to do some experimenting with ferrite cores but I'm so tired of pushing trifercons out of box connectors that I keep procrastinating. I'm feeling this is pretty done! Time to celebrate.

#676 11 months ago

In her new location, at least for now:

IMG_3457.JPG

IMG_3459.JPG

IMG_3460.JPG

IMG_3461.JPG

IMG_3463.JPG

If you look closely, you can just see a little purple coming out the neck grill... just a little extra flair for dark rooms.

IMG_3464.JPG

#677 11 months ago
Quoted from jsa:

In her new location, at least for now:
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
If you look closely, you can just see a little purple coming out the neck grill... just a little extra flair for dark rooms.
[quoted image]

That is so pretty I'd be afraid to touch it.

#678 11 months ago
Quoted from MustangPaul:

That is so pretty I'd be afraid to touch it.

That's the thing, fiberglass resin, automotive paints... Holy crap, this thing is a tank. I wonder how much this machine weighs in comparison to before the teardown from bondo, fiberglass resin, paint and clear.

#679 11 months ago

What would be really cool is if you could get the lights to flicker!

#680 11 months ago
Quoted from jsa:

That's the thing, fiberglass resin, automotive paints... Holy crap, this thing is a tank. I wonder how much this machine weighs in comparison to before the teardown from bondo, fiberglass resin, paint and clear.

Weigh it.

#681 11 months ago
Quoted from JethroP:

What would be really cool is if you could get the lights to flicker!

I literally just spit my strong and overpriced alcohol across the room.

#682 11 months ago

Damn nice. Or....damn, nice! Either works.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 7.00
Electronics
Third Coast Pinball
$ 14.50
Electronics
PinballElectronics.com
From: $ 155.00
From: $ 15.00
€ 3.95
Flipper Parts
Multigame
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
From: $ 159.95
$ 16.00
Electronics
Yorktown Parts and Equip
From: $ 45.00
Displays
PinballSolutions.eu
$ 85.00
From: $ 13.00
Electronics
Third Coast Pinball
$ 149.95
Boards
Allteksystems
There are 682 posts in this topic. You are on page 14 of 14.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside