If you are gonna throw it out there, don't cry about it if you get smacked down……….No apologies, agreed…..

It's not paying hypothetical 25% more than a guy who waited half a year that's keeping people from buying NiB. It's not getting any good code sooner than that guy. Why buy new when the game is only going to be done months later?

Doesn't anyone have a defined benefit pension plan for retirement?

Let's not bring up Bethlehem Steel or some of the airlines. At least the PBGC protects annual payouts to about $59k/year. That's why there is a PBGC these days. Unfortunately, a lot of retired pilots who lived in Hawaii with $125k/yr pensions had to move back to the mainland.

Because if you buy an LE it's a limited edition. End of story. "Out of the vault" means it existed already. There was never a Tron Premium so therefore it cannot come out of the vault.

Trekkie - Ask yourself if you really want to be a useful part of the pinball community or an annoying troll. So far your contributions consist of whining about prices/resale and Tron LE's exclusivity. Broader your scope or you'll just be "that guy"

Healthcare was a bigger part of GM's problems and retired employees of the old GM still get their pension money every month. Old General motors was a healthcare provider that also happened to design, develop and build automobiles.

I plan on collecting two pensions until I kick the bucket.

You constantly combine different things with different contexts into the same argument.

Stern makes Limited Edition games because they want buyers to believe they're buying something with collector value. Whether it goes up or down in value is besides the point. It may go up. It may go down. It may go up after it goes down. Who knows! Who cares. To expect them to make more LE games because LE values are down is asinine.

Your argument has been torn apart many times in this thread and you've ignored it all. In any case -what IS your endgame of this discussion? What happens if "you're right" and we agree with you? Everyone ceases to buy NIB games? You pop up in other threads with your "take a bath" and "wait and get it for 25% less" logic...very trollish. To try to make people feel like they're dumb for buying new games is just a dick thing to do. Do you go on, I dunno - Dyson Vacuum forums and tell people they're stupid for buying new vacuums for $500 when they can get a used one for $200? Some people LIKE buying NEW things for NEW prices and DON'T CAAAARE or feel shitty about it! Stop trying to make people feel shitty about it! It makes you a useless troll on Pinside. Sorry you made a "mistake" and paid more for your STLE than the rest of us...seems like you're now on a mission to stop people from making your "mistake".

People are going to buy new shit. Get over it. There's nothing wrong with it. Buy used games from now on if that's your thing. Nothing wrong with that either...but you can do it without insulting NIB buyers.

Like you said, people like buying new stuff, and don't feel shitty about it. He, or whomever else can try all he/they wants to get people to feel like shit. If you don't care buying the new stuff, then you really shouldn't care about the opinions of other people anyway. Aslong you're happy that's what matters.
They really can't insult me because i buy NIB.

Opinions are just what they are, opinions. You either agree or don't. And then move on.

yep, perfect the fine art of flipping.

Not many of those left in the US that aren't frozen unless you work for the Gov't (no politics, it's just the reality given changes in accounting law that apply to public companies but not the Gov't).

How can a pic of Optimus Prime be anything less then f-ing awesome?

"Entertainment can mean a lot of different things. Basically, anything that you do for pleasure that is not a required expenditure. Big ticket items in this category include such costs as boats, campers, snowmobiles and ATVs, as well as the costs that go along with them such as insurance, gas, maintenance, and any trailer costs. The day to day entertainment expenses that you’ll want to add to your budget include such things as movie theaters, dinner theaters, social events, parties at home or away, going out with your friends, trips to museums or sporting events, and anything else that you do for pleasure that isn’t a vacation. Other expenses that fit this category include your TV, satellite, cable, Netflix, or Hulu subscriptions, as well as any video game costs."

Contractual and promised defined-benefit pensions are "unsustainable" for the average worker, while $20 million salaries for CEO's are never questioned. I'm so tired of hearing this nonsense. As long as the average American keeps barking downhill instead of uphill while his/her standard of living continues to be diminished, things will continue to get worse and worse for the vast majority of us.

And several large corporations like Viacom, Disney, Time Warner, CBS, Comcast, CVS, Exxon, Marathon, ATT, Ford, etc. pay much more than the $20,000,000 I mentioned. The point is as the middle class continues to get squeezed, be ready for some major social upheaval that could come knocking on your door one day. I'm not going to continue on as this is marching dangerously toward politics, but it's definitely difficult to talk economics without politics coming into play.

Based on your post, you seem to support Law of the Jungle, laissez faire economics. That works well for the privileged and connected. But we're talking about people here. And when they can't feed their families, their "free market" is to come take it from those who can. That's not the society that I want to live in, thank you very much.

basically the problem here is you are a self-descried a-hole but can't take it when other people call you one.

Historically most assets drop in value unless demand exceeds supply. Is remaking games disrupting the old value system yes (it's setting the high at least in the short term). Companies are going to remake games if there is enough profit. Easier to remake a known quantity and customer desire than risk on a new one. Low hanging fruit you might say.

New customers have a desire for 90's machines from their childhood or young adulthood. Supply got constrained and prices rose. Manufacturers saw an opportunity to make money and increased supply thereby lowering prices. Free Market 101.

Bubble burst on ponzi spouting flippers who pumped the idea of constant rising value. Now things seem to be returning to just higher than normal prices. Only high quality complete games will see demand in the new buyer savy highly demanding consumer who would be I got to shell out $8000 for a game.

So the biggest thing I see is risk that used to be bourne by the flipper is now on the manufacturers and distributors. If a title busts then they take the loss. I got a WOF that way others got a CV. Funny how opinions changed on those titles even though they sold for blowout prices.

Biggest risk I see to boutique builders is not mechanical and build quality. It is will the code be complete and awesome. We will see soon.

shouldnt this be the expectation when you buy something new? The alternative is to wait and save.

I would also like to say difference of opinion is not necessarily an attack, nor does it make anyone "bad"

Finally, I think the issue is that we keep talking like pinball is some sort of investment/retirement plan with an expectation. Granted pinball overall has done well financially, it seems the classics/collectible models like AFM, TAF, MB (like a 67 camaro) may be considered somewhat of an investment, at least for now. but never would I buy a brand new machine and expected it not to drop some in value. In fact, many drop first, then come back up once they become collectible.

This is absolutely an option for Stern, and if they see it as profitable and can secure again the license, it can be done. It is what it is..... And because there are so many buyers for TRON, prices continue going up, Stern can identify where there is demand (they can add supply).

Ultimately the best model for Sterns bottom line is to raise the price on LE's so it takes 2 weeks to sell out, instead of 2 days, and re-release non-limited games that have a strong demand. For example if a game is bringing $5k used, stern can sell them new for the same and capture the revenue. They are in business to make money. It's not the best for "investment collectors" that's for sure. When MMR hits the ground and future Williams releases come out, same goes for the classics.

THEN YOU WILL JUST HAVE TO BUY FOR THE LOVE OF THE GAME, it will no longer be about the money, or how the "investment" is doing

When you describe it like that it all sounds logical. Only one problem, humans aren't logical.

When emotions get involved logic takes a backseat. Example? Just look at the crazy stuff many have with Apple. Look at the madness for the latest iphone 6. People camping days on end for a phone?
A friend of mine works in a phonestore, and sold the last model. They opened at night, and had hundereds of people lining up for it. They sold their iphone 5s for 300 euro, even though some had just purchased that phone like 6 months ago for 700 euro. The needed to have that latest model so bad they took more then 50% hit for it. And i can names many many more examples. What about the ps4 launch or any other launch of consoles or some games? Or back in the old days people camping before a store that sold tickets for their favorite band. I know people who did this way back to get the chance to see Michael Jackson live.

Every human has stuff takes makes them forget this basic logic and let the heart and desire take over. Humans are like that, and will always be like that. Having such emotions is a big part that defines us as a species.

I agree, Police who barely made 100k/yr with 100k annual pensions are not sustainable.

My pensions are not government related. One is limited due to a company spinoff, the other was frozen a few years ago. But I plan to draw on both of them.

Please tell me that you don't just have empathy for those you can relate to. That's like the guy who says that he was against gay marriage until he found out that his daughter was gay. So, public employees should be screwed out of their promised pensions?

I agree. The problem is that it is so entrenched now that it has ruined our democracy. But, this is capitalism gone wild, where the corporate world actually owns the government with lobbying and and political contributions. The already slanted table goes a total 90 degrees in their direction when that happens.

Don't you want to get it? While the value drop might be shit that's not the point. LIMITED EDITION is the point ffs. The whole prestige is gone when you don't own number 125 of 500 anymore but 125 of 500 of production run number 1 of 20.
You would rob it of it's inherit SUBJECTIVE value of being a LIMITED EDITION.

I own a Warlok. Only 412 have ever been made and that was 1982. It is very limited, yet still not super expensive. The value of it being seldom is not directly connected with it's monetary value but with the very subjective prestige of owning a rare pin.

Likewise the premium I would have to pay for a NiB right now as to 6 months later for an almost mint pin might be totally worth it to me, just so I can enjoy a great game that much sooner.
What's hurting NiB is the coding being incomplete for most of that time.
That, again, is subjective value. Others don't mind at all to play the game along the code being updated but it sure is a reason for a decend amount of people to cancel their order.

Stern needs to get their stuff together with their software developement. Get the code out quickly and people will order LEs NiB faster than you can announce them.

Are you sure that those aren't the salaries of the upper echelon in the force? Traffic cops make 100K? That doesn't sound accurate.

<blockquote cite="#1944009"
To play devil's advocate about the code having an effect on sales. From what I have read, X-Men has a great code to the game. The code is complete. Those pins are selling NIB less than they were 2 years ago. Yet, distributors still have them. Why?

Why? Let's try:

Xmen is a shooters game. If your not good it gets old. So that's a plus for high end players and a negative for the broader market.

Late to get code done so movie tie in is stale.

Due to the delay more and arguably better pin choices available (MET, ACDC, WOZ) that cannibalize sales of XMEN.

NIB consumers has many choices and is demanding.

XMEN may over time increase in value but the reasons above are causing at least short term pricing pressure.

Not at all, my late dad was a municipal employee who had a pension. It was nowhere near 100% of his annual pay though. Disclaimer, he also had Social Security. The total of the two was about 60% of his average pay during his final years working.

I'll bet the New Jersey example did not allow contribution to FICA. Thus, their pension should be higher than those with a 40% pension and Social Security draw.

i missed the part where people said monetary value was meaningless. i see a lot of people saying it's not the ultimate and only consideration.

i mean a brand new machine losing significant resale value is hardly unique to pinball. sure, you can if you want be the kinds of person who only buys second-hand furniture, cars, appliances, etc etc, and you can save money that way. go for it. but don't come on here and try to tell people that those choices are the only valid way to live or something.

X-men's code isn't really THAT good. Just because it's "better than awful" (when it came out), doesn't mean it's so great that everyone's going to flip around on it. X-Men has a lot of "out of the box" issues...Wolverine placement, bad aux boards, rattley spinning disc - it's possible many that actually want an X-Men would rather get one HUO that's been dialed in. Even with that out of the way, it has some ear-bleedingly horrible voices (Beast & Storm) and rules that some call "deep" but is really just "a lot of stuff". It doesn't have the nuance or polish or excitement of a game like AC/DC or Tron. Sure, there are a few vocal X-Men lovers...but that's not going to turn the tide on its reputation and make people want to run out and buy it new at this point.

I didn't misunderstand anything and I already explained this to you a few posts up. An LE is an LE. Resale matters to some, doesn't matter to others. It's not for Stern to decide what maters to people, but they themselves have decided Limited Edition MEANS Limited Edition. That concept has kept them in business over the past few years because people will snap them up due to their limited nature. They're not going to destroy it by remaking an LE.

You're coming off as a bully, blaming the victim. You're constantly telling people they're wrong for buying NIB games (even though you've done it yourself). You're like a parent who's done bad things but then tells their kids never to do those things.

...and your theory has been burst by people who've been collecting pinball and know about pinball for much longer than you. Pinball pricing has been relatively immune to economic factors. This is a fact and makes your historic economic examples irrelevant to this hobby. You've been attacked because of your repeated trollish behavior on this topic.

Sure, but they're not STOCKS. Their value doesn't behave like stocks.

Once again, you're combining two entirely different things. NIB games & their subsequent value, and "the price of games" overall. And once again, you keep using that $8000 number...because that's what you paid for your STLE. Sorry, you paid too much. Sorry, you seem to be super hurt about it, and that seems to be what's driving your trolling on this topic. Sorry, people will continue to buy NIB games, regardless of "instant value drop", just like every product on the planet. People like new stuff. Get. Over. It.

You're obsessed with STLE and it's value within the first year of its release. You're new to pinball, so I can see why you look at it in a very short term way. Games need to be around for a long time to get a reputation for its demand to rise. That's now a game will go up from its NIB price...but that WILL NOT happen within the year it came out...or maybe even 2 or 3. Or ever! But the STLE scenario you've glommed onto is ONE GAME...with a context. That doesn't represent the state of ALL GAMES. Some go up, some go down, it's game specific.

Life is good. I just went hiking and now I'm playing pinball

I am a public school teacher here in Michigan. I can tell you that our pension is calculated by taking the average of your 3 highest consecutive years in terms of salary X Service credit (years) X 1.5%. In the end, that amounts to about 40% of your highest avg. compensation after 30 years. There might be some instances of overly generous pensions, perhaps in some municipalities, but that is not the case with the teacher pension system. I can tell you that. Couple that with wages and job security going down, while red tape, responsibilities, healthcare, and personal contributions to the retirement system skyrocketing, it's not looking very good long-term. Luckily, I still like the core of the job. But it's becoming less and less desirable. That's for certain.

State plans are certainly variable and getting tighter but they are typically still far better than most private industry. I'd love to have the option to retire after 30 years of service at 55 with 40% of my salary and annual cost-of-living increases. Opening a pinball bar could actually happen. Not begrudging any public employee getting this type of reasonable pension after so many years of service. But just having a DB pension plan these days is a very attractive benefit.

Ummm....yeah, Sweden.

Don't know about future values, but apparently current prices are pretty high still.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fs-4-of-11-restored-or-huo-pins-then-sale-is-over

Yup. My brother had a state job and retired with more like 65% of his salary at age 55. Sweet deal. I expect to work until I am 67, and it is unlikely even then that I'll match his income. He's extremely fortunate to have gotten that deal when he did. My parents, too, were the beneficiaries of a generous but now disappearing retirement system. Luckily, I enjoy my job, but it's hard not to be a bit envious of those who have substantial guaranteed retirement income.

Those are all at I don't want to sell it price. I would be curious as to what actually sells and for how much.

That's the funniest for sale thread we have seen in a long time.

http://cr4re.com/images/PopDist.gif

By x-mas, LE prices will be...image.jpg

I think the fact you have only been exposed to the hobby for 2 years has given you a limited amount of data to draw your opinions from. I say exposed because you stated you were not in the hobby, even though you own 3 games.

The immediate drop in price for Stern NIB games has been occuring since 2000, with Tron being the exception. The normal cycle is Stern promotes the hell out of a game, people buy in without ever playing the game, they realize that they do not like the game, and 3 to 6 months later they want to sell. The problem is that NIB games are still available for the price they paid, and potential buyers want to pay $1,000 to $1,500 less for their HUO. Once other buyers see those lower sale prices, they begin to believe that is all the game is worth, and at least temporarily the value of the game has been depreciated.

The better Stern games like SM, LOTR and TSPP did recover and even appreciate, but many others including Striker Extreme, Sharkeys Shootout, Big Buck Hunter, Transformers and Avatar did not recover due to lack of demmand.

The point is taking an initial loss on a NIB Stern is nothing new, and supply and demmand always corrects the pricing in the long run. With the wild card being the Vault Editions.