(Topic ID: 148678)

Fuse under play field keeps blowing/shorting out

By cottonm4

8 years ago


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  • 21 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by cottonm4
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 8 years ago

Newly acquired Stern Big Game: I replaced all coil sleeves and rebuilt flippers with new parts. Game was playing fabulously for several hours and then the feature lights starting going dim, bright, then dim. And then they were out. I had blown a 10 amp fuse on the rectifier board and the 1 amp slo blo fuse under play field was blown.

I replaced both fuses but the play field fuse keeps blowing. I think this fuse is related to all the solenoids/coils. Does this I mean I have a direct short in one of the coils?

Some of the wiring leads to some of the inserts lights. Do I have a light socket shorting?

I did have one flipper start doing some flipper chatter and then it "fixed" itself. Should I consider this coil as suspect?

Short of disconnecting/unsoldering each coil, is there a proven way to isolated this problem?

Thanks.

#2 8 years ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

feature lights starting going dim, bright, then dim.

if your lights were messing up why do you think it was a coil?

If I were you I would use the ASAP method. Always Start At Power.

Also lets clarify some things.

You are using multiple terminology here.

You say Rectifier board and Playfield fuse.

What is the Fuse # and location and Technically what board do you mean by Rectifier board?

Is the "rectifier board fuse now working and only the "under the playfield fuse blowing"

By under the playfield fuse do you mean Main line fuse, like the one in the box near the coin door?

#3 8 years ago
Quoted from kporter946286:

if your lights were messing up why do you think it was a coil?
If I were you I would use the ASAP method. Always Start At Power.
Also lets clarify some things.
You are using multiple terminology here.
You say Rectifier board and Playfield fuse.
What is the Fuse # and location and Technically what board do you mean by Rectifier board?
Is the "rectifier board fuse now working and only the "under the playfield fuse blowing"
By under the playfield fuse do you mean Main line fuse, like the one in the box near the coin door?

I mean if you had light issues blew the light fuse and now are blowing main fuse, I would say you should start looking at your lighting and Flasher Drivers.

Do you have Schematics and a DMM?

#4 8 years ago
Quoted from kporter946286:

if your lights were messing up why do you think it was a coil?
If I were you I would use the ASAP method. Always Start At Power.
Also lets clarify some things.
You are using multiple terminology here.
You say Rectifier board and Playfield fuse.
What is the Fuse # and location and Technically what board do you mean by Rectifier board?
Is the "rectifier board fuse now working and only the "under the playfield fuse blowing"
By under the playfield fuse do you mean Main line fuse, like the one in the box near the coin door?

Well, I had a 10 amp feature light fuse blow on the board at the bottom of the cabinet that distributes the power from the power supply. I thought that was called a rectifier board. If there is another name for this board please advise. This fuse is now working. Well, let's put it this way, I do not yet have any feature lights but the fuse is not blowing.

The other fuse is a one amp slo blow fuse that is on the lower side of the play field. It is just a fuse in a fuse holder that is attached to the bottom of the playfield. This one keeps blowing. It is like this: I replace the fuse, turn on the machine and the fuse blows almost immediately. I have blown three in total.

I don't know what the problem is. The other day I had a flipper coil start chattering but it "fixed" itself. A couple of days later I got this lights flickering business and then all my feature lights went out. But the game still played and the GI lights all worked. Just no feature lights. And then the pop bumpers quit working and the ball launcher quit, as well.

I do have a digital multi-meter and the schematic, but electronics are not my strongest suit. I'm OK with wiring diagrams and can build a mean-ass wire harness but I'm a little lost with schematics. I am a fairly quick learner but at this point in time the ASAP method means nothing to me. I would not know where to start.

By Flasher Drivers, do you mean the parts that are on the lamp driver board? Could something on the Lamp Driver board went whacko and start these problems?

Thanks.

#5 8 years ago

Looking at the Schematics, there is a 10amp fuse at location F which is for the 7.8V Ac coming off the transformer, that line goes through a Bridge Rectifier BR1 and then is brought down to 5.4v DC and used on J1-7 (Playfield lights)

if you could upload pictures of the 2 fuses that would speak volumes.

The chatter on your Flipper could be a bad solder connection on one of the coil lugs, a power EOS switch connection or even a bad Switch connection right at the flipper button.

The 1amp Slo Blo is on the (Playfield) and runs all your coil power from the flippers to pops to slings to 3 bank drops to out hole.

So sounds like we have a short somewhere.

a couple of ways to do this. I purchased a fuse breaker (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/making-and-using-a-fuse-breaker)
so that i wouldn't wast good fuses during testing. they are cheap and you may want to invest in one.

I would start by physically inspecting all your coils (don't desolder them yet) turn game off and run an OHM test on each coil, they should OHM out at 2-3ohm

Next I believe this machine has all the diodes on the coils. I would look to make sure the diodes are solder on properly and they are all working.

Next I would look at all your switches to makes sure one isnt stuck on. Like on the pops there is a Switch Stack (this is a common one to get stuck) Look all those switches and makes sure the ones that are supposed to be closed are closed and the ones that are supposed to be open are open,

Same goes for the slings (another common one) makes sure the leaf switch behind the rubber above the playfield isn't stuck closed.

If you find nothing after doing all of this, and you have a few extra fuses. you can give it the old eye test.

Raise the playfield turn on the game and look really quick at which coil is activating immediately upon start up before fuse blows. Once you see which coil is immediately turning on when you turn your game on, you've found your culprit.

Here is a quick list of other fuses for future reference

F1= 10amp J1-5+J16 (Playfield) Runs 7.3v for General Illumination

F2= 3/4amp SloBlo Runs 230VDC goes to J3-5(Backbox) gots to Regulate 185 VDC INput

F3= 4 Amp Runs 11.9 VDc to J3-8 (Backbox) Runs 11.9 vDC Bus

F4= 7 1/2 Amp SloBlo Runs 43vDC gots to J2-2 (Cabinet) for Coinlock out and Knocker also it goest to J1-6 (Playfield Solenoid Bus) and J3-9+12+13 (Backbox) which is Flipper Enable Re Bus on J3-9 and Zero Crossing input on J3-12 (J3-13 is not used)

F5= 20 Amp Runs 7.3 Vac adn goes to J1-5+-8 (Playfield) for Gen Illumination

F6= 3Amp SloBlo This comes directly off your transformerand runs to J2-6 for AC power

#6 8 years ago
Quoted from kporter946286:

Looking at the Schematics, there is a 10amp fuse at location F which is for the 7.8V Ac coming off the transformer, that line goes through a Bridge Rectifier BR1 and then is brought down to 5.4v DC and used on J1-7 (Playfield lights)
if you could upload pictures of the 2 fuses that would speak volumes.

Here is pic of 1 amp fuse holder under the PF and between the flippers.
IMG_0181_(resized).JPGIMG_0181_(resized).JPG

And the pic of the rectifier board. It is the 10 amp feature lamps fuse on the left. My label is messed up so I include a pic of the label, also.

IMG_0183_(resized).JPGIMG_0183_(resized).JPG

Screen_Shot_2016-01-07_at_10.45.07_AM_(resized).jpgScreen_Shot_2016-01-07_at_10.45.07_AM_(resized).jpg

Quoted from kporter946286:

The chatter on your Flipper could be a bad solder connection on one of the coil lugs, a power EOS switch connection or even a bad Switch connection right at the flipper button.

I replaced all switches/EOS on flipper coils and switches on flipper buttons. I tried to be careful and not have any cold solder joints; I will double check this work for integrity.

Quoted from kporter946286:

The 1amp Slo Blo is on the (Playfield) and runs all your coil power from the flippers to pops to slings to 3 bank drops to out hole.
So sounds like we have a short somewhere.

Yes. I'm thinking a short from somewhere.

Quoted from kporter946286:

a couple of ways to do this. I purchased a fuse breaker (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/making-and-using-a-fuse-breaker)
so that i wouldn't wast good fuses during testing. they are cheap and you may want to invest in one.

Yes. I did some shopping last night and this morning. The place to buy 1 amp resettable thermal circuit breakers is:

http://www.newark.com

http://www.newark.com/thermal-circuit-breakers

I just ordered a range of seven resettable circuit breakers from Newark. The 7 breakers cost $25.00 total and shipping via USPS is just $5.50. All other places wanted an arm and leg for a 1 amp breaker and shipping costs were way took high.

Quoted from kporter946286:

I would start by physically inspecting all your coils (don't desolder them yet) turn game off and run an OHM test on each coil, they should OHM out at 2-3ohm

Aha! So there is possibility of having to desolder in order to trouble shoot a pinball. You said much with that statement.

Sidebar: I was doing dome work on the pops that required (more than one time) removal. I set them up with Molex connectors. I was careful with working the pops but I will double-check my work; That will be easy as I can just unplug them.

IMG_0187_(resized).JPGIMG_0187_(resized).JPG

Quoted from kporter946286:

Next I believe this machine has all the diodes on the coils. I would look to make sure the diodes are solder on properly and they are all working.

Yes. This pin has diodes buried everywhere. Thanks for the videos.

The rest of the info you provided looks like it will be helpful for my learning.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

*********
I have just found out that I have to leave town tomorrow for 6 to 10 days. I will respond once I get home.

Again, thanks for responding.

2 weeks later
#7 8 years ago

Well, I'm home now and got the problem figured out. I went with the de-solder method and found the left sling-shot coil to be the culprit that was/is shorting and blowing the 1 amp fuse on the under side of the play field. A phone call to Steve at Pinball Resource was in order where I ordered up some sling-shot coils and a few other small items. I told him my coil problem and he said I what I have is transistor gone bad on the Solenoid Driver board. I'm still buying the coils, but now, I'm getting a couple of transistors, too.

#8 8 years ago
Quoted from cottonm4:

Well, I'm home now and got the problem figured out. I went with the de-solder method and found the left sling-shot coil to be the culprit that was/is shorting and blowing the 1 amp fuse on the under side of the play field. A phone call to Steve at Pinball Resource was in order where I ordered up some sling-shot coils and a few other small items. I told him my coil problem and he said I what I have is transistor gone bad on the Solenoid Driver board. I'm still buying the coils, but now, I'm getting a couple of transistors, too.

You know how to test those drivers?

#9 8 years ago
Quoted from kporter946286:

You know how to test those drivers?

No. I have been trying to learn by reading Vid's post about Bally/Stern Driver Board repair but any links with info on how to properly test would be appreciated.

#10 8 years ago

Its pretty easy. What DMM do you have make and model.

#11 8 years ago

My DMM is a cheapie I got at Harbor Freight. For what it worth it is called "Performance Tool W2974". It tests for DCV, ACV, DCA, Diode, and Ohms. The test leads are not as long as I would like so I would not be opposed to suggestions for procuring a better unit, if needed.

#12 8 years ago

Okay good, you have a diode test. Do you know which Driver runs that sling?

I dont have schematics up but its probably a Tip122. All you have to do is put DMM in diode mode and test all the combinations of the legs. Like Black lead on left leg-red lead on middle.

Write it down, then do Black on left and red on right leg, black on left red on Tab. then do the Red on the left black lead on middle leg and so on.

Make sure you write all of the values down. Some times you get Buzzed/short, and other times you'll get readings of 0.2- 0.6 which is good. If you get readings out side of that 0.2-.6 range you know the driver is bad.

its best to check a known working driver first so you know which legs and combinations are supposed to read what. Then test the suspect driver and if its blown it will be obvious. Pretty easy to change as well, use low heat 15w, some people cut the legs, i usually use my Nice Desolder gun, but you can just as easily use desolder braid or a solder sucker. Pull the bad driver out put new one in and re-solder.

I have a chart somewhere that will tell you exactly what legs to probe and what they should read Ill try to dig up, but you can just test a known working chip (identicle) and get an Idea of what the readings should be.

#13 8 years ago

Thank you. I'll pull my SDU board tomorrow and start working/learning this. Since the board is coming out I think it is best to replace the caps, too (Vid's Guide).

Give me a couple of days. I am going to have to study my schematics.

#14 8 years ago

I would not replace things for the sake of replacing. If it ain't broke dont fix it. You may end up doing more harm than good

#15 8 years ago
Quoted from kporter946286:

I would not replace things for the sake of replacing. If it ain't broke dont fix it. You may end up doing more harm than good

Your advise is well taken, however, I have had some games quit in the middle and restart. If am am reading correctly, a bad C23 cap can cause this issue.

I've tested the drivers/transistors? If I am doing it correctly I am showing that driver Q6 is out of range. On the schematic, Q6 is listed as the left sling shot. So, that fits with my left sling shot shorting out.

Connector J2 ( lower left and upper right in photo) shows pin 11 as Q6 the left sling shot, pin 12 as Q7 the right sling shot, and pin 5 as Q5 the knocker.

Screen_Shot_2016-01-27_at_9.56.25_PM_(resized).jpgScreen_Shot_2016-01-27_at_9.56.25_PM_(resized).jpg

Here is pic on my board. The resistor and driver for Q5/knocker was fried and replaced before I bought the pin. The knocker was unplugged; I plugged it back in and have not knowingly had any problems.

I don't know if Q6 giving me problems is coincidental to Q5 burning up. Maybe so;Maybe not. But I was having problems with the left sling shot "machine gunning" for several games before I started blowing the fuse ( I have been playing some games with the left sling shot disabled ) and now the right sling shot is starting to act up, as well. Q7 reads OK, but I'm going to replace it along with Q6 when my parts arrive.

Q6-Board_(resized).JPGQ6-Board_(resized).JPG

#16 8 years ago

YIKES!!! You need to talk to the king of carbon, Borygaurd (sp). here on the forums. If I were you and planing on keeping this, you may want to get this board looked at by a PRO. or buy a new board / NOS board. Seriously that is not looking well. I will recomend Borygurd first as he is always talking carbon scoring, if he is busy go after Chris Hibler or John Wort Jr. I def. would recomend taking the extra step and extra money to get this board properly done.

#17 8 years ago

Yes, that carbon needs to be cleaned up from the burning components. The surface stuff, not so much, but a simple tooth brush and rubbing alcohol will get that cleaned up. The burning into the fiberglass of the board is where you're going to have problems. It needs to be removed completely.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#18 8 years ago

Thank you both for the 'heads up'. I'm going to open this post with my closing statement: I am going to buy a new SDU board. My question is should I buy the Altec board, or should I get the the Rottendog unit? The Altec is approx $50.00 more. Is it worth the extra half a yard? I'm all ears.

You two sent me off reading and researching.

I came of age during the era of small block '57 Chevys and big block Corvettes. Labor was too expensive to farm anything out so you learned to do it all. Sometimes it worked out and sometimes (expensively ) it did not For better, or worse, that mind set still lives with me today. I went at the burnt board. It may have turned out for the worse

SIDEBAR: I bought this Big Game on Thanksgiving and had perhaps 10-12 hours of relative trouble-free play time before the slingshot coil shorted out. The only reason I went after the board is Steve Young @PBR said I needed to replace the transistor, as well as the coil.

To get working space, I removed 4 drivers, 4 caps, and 4 resistors. As you advised, I cleaned the area with alcohol. With the affected area now being visible I could see that the burn went almost through the board. Luckily, it did not burn through and the traces on the backside remained intact. To repair the burned area I used chopped fiberglass fibers and fiberglass resin. To help seal the area around the burn I spread out a light coat of resin.

I got my replacement parts from a local electronics shop that has been in business here for 50 years (they sell everything that Radio Shack doesn't sell). The drivers are the TIP102s. I forgot how to read the ID bands on the resistors but the old gray haired shop tech said the blue ones are the correct value (I hope he was correct).

Here is the repaired area.

IMG_0439_(resized).JPGIMG_0439_(resized).JPG

Here is the backside---post repair work.

IMG_0444_(resized).JPGIMG_0444_(resized).JPG

I reinstalled the board and fired up the pin. It played fine----for two 5 ball games. When I hit the credit button for a third game, all I got was a chirp from the speaker and nothing more. Now my pin is deader than a door nail.

Here is what happens: I turn the switch on. The displays light up and flash the way they are supposed to do. Attract Mode kicks in and the table lights all start flashing. I hit the credit button and just as the machine goes dead I hear a small click in that relay on the SDU board. And this is where I am stuck. I don't know how to troubleshoot this. This relay is trying to tell me something but I am at a loss.

Oh, and I noticed one other thing: 5 of my play field lights are not lighting up in Attract Mode.

So, I changed 12 items and got two good games going. Did I do something wrong or have I ran into some other coincidental problem? The thought of just buying a new board starts to gain some traction i.e. it might be cheaper in the long run

Anyway, I pull the board to double-check my work and finally notice something has been done on the other end (sometimes I suffer from tunnel vision). I get out the magnifying glass. Keeping in mind that I had several hours of good gameplay with this board, I see that 2 drivers have been removed. A check of the drawing shows one of the removed drivers being located in an open slot at the connector. I don't know about the other driver, yet. I continue looking with the magnifying glass and see a solder joint that looks like it cracked and fell off.

Here are the pics. This shows the position of the two removed drivers.

IMG_0455_(resized).JPGIMG_0455_(resized).JPG

And this pic tries to show the missing solder. This pic was taken with an iPhone looking thru the magnifying glass. The solder has cracked off all the way around, though it looks like there is still some contact.

IMG_0456_(resized).JPGIMG_0456_(resized).JPG

Anyway, I want to play my pin so I will get a new board. Should it be the Altec? Or the Rottendog?

If this problem goes away with a new board then I will know I blew it somewhere. If I can eventually isolate what I blew up then I will have a spare board.

And if the problem persists with a new board, then I will know I got hammered with a coincidental problem that decided now was the time to rain on my parade.

Sorry for being so wordy. Thanks for managing to read this far.

I plan to keep this Big Game for a long time. Which board do you all like? Altec? Rottendog?

Any ideas on what I did wrong?

Thanks.

#19 8 years ago

Well, I would get some quotes from the guys I mentioned, They may recondition all your boards a at a good rate, well under new boards. You are in a position were your Pinball doesn't command that High of a Market value and I would try to do this as cheap as possible. Borygurd, JwartJr, and Chris all are excellent and will get those boards in tip top reliable shape for years to come and prob half the cost of buying new. Rotten dog is kinda phasing out production as Jim is going on to do different things and i am not familiar with the other brand.

#20 8 years ago

Thanks to everybody for your thoughts and ideas. I decided to order the Altek board. Once I get the pin up and running I am going to try and learn where I went wrong with my board repair. I'll keep you posted.

#21 8 years ago

I got my Altek board installed today(2-6-16). I got it connected and the game is playing nicely. In time, I am going to work on sorting out what went wrong with my transistor replacement. But that will be a bit in the future.

With all of whatever it was that happened I have lost some of my play field lights. I'll have to trace that issue out, but in the meantime, I figure it is time to bite the bullet and re-pin all my connectors and fix some other nickel/dime stuff.

Thanks.

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